Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

I have been asked to do an O P showing my beliefs and have written a nutshell view to fill that request.

I was a skeptic till the age of 39. I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake and that makes me as hated by Christians today as the ancient Gnostics that Constantine had the Christians kill when he bought the Catholic Church.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read’st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of the O. T. God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.

This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness or what I call; the Godhead.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. It does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have exaggerated tribal mentalities and poor morals as they have developed a double standard to be able to stomach their God.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to ignore whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar of excellence and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Since then, I have tried to collect information that would help any that believe that apotheosis is possible, generally not Christians, — as they do not believe in the mythical esoteric Jesus that I believe in and churches do not dare teach it.

This first clip gives the theological and philosophical interpretation of what Jesus taught and the second clip show what I think is a close representation of the method that helped me push my apotheosis.

youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesf … r_embedded

youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

Basically, the usual Christian Jesus is their hero and savior while my version demand that man himself steps up to the plate and save himself.

Which version do you think is more moral and deserving of praise and why?

Regards
DL

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And so what do you think of the Jews?

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oops. wrong thread!

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Gnostic Christians are Universalists. Jews, like all of us, have a spark od God within them. Fact is, they knew that way before most of the Abrahamic cults. In fact, their laws make them Gods in the same sense as with the Gnostic Christians. I think Jesus even asks them, have ye forgotten that ye are Gods. Is it not written in your laws that ye are Gods.

In terms of theology, the Jewish laws are demonstrably superior to Jesus’ and Christianity’s. Christians will not admit it unless tricked into it though.

Regards
DL

5

Try me.

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What are your thoughts on Jesus’ divorce laws as compared to the Jewish law?
I think his, — let no man put asunder is anti-love and immoral.
I also prefer the Jewish policy on forgiving instead of Jesus’ policy that cuts out the human forgiveness and takes the pleasure of closure from the victim. Jesus has no right to forgive an offence against you or I.

There are other issues.

youtube.com/watch?v=j4QXOgVf … r_embedded

Regards
DL

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You have proposed two concerns of “rock and a hard place”. The second is somewhat laughable, so let’s go with the first one.

You claimed that Moses’ laws are demonstrably better. I have to assume that you mean that they are better under the current circumstances, because what was better 2000 years ago in Judea and what is better today in America are not going to be the same thing. If that is an incorrect assumption, then please state your position.

The issue as I see it seems to be that Moses said (paraphrased), “If you don’t like your wife, give her a certificate and get rid of her” whereas Jesus said, “Except for her immorality, keep the solemn promise that you made with her”.

So what is your demonstrable evidence of superiority?

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DL, please explain what you mean by apotheosis?

My dictionary says:

  1. Exaltation to divine rank or stature; deification.
  2. An exalted or glorified example: Their leader was the apotheosis of courage.
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That is not what Jesus endorsed. He endorsed — let no man put asunder or, there is no cause for divorce. God does not change. Right?

Jesus was saying that even if one beats the other twice a week, no divorce.

That does not fit this time or any time as it locks people into unhappy situations where there is no love. We all have a right to seek love.

Regards
DL

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As I said, I do not like the definition even as it is good.

I liken it to mean that I have found myself on Jacobs ladder. As each rung is mounted, one comes closer to the ideal. That ideal is God to most. It is like being deified in the sense that one recognizes that one will reach the ideal and what it takes is already in us. The Gnostic Christian Jesus would have had to pass exactly where we all want to go. Seek God and you will know what I mean. I am a God WIP only. Work in progress. The only difference between you and I as to seeking ideals, I know where mine is.

Regards
DL

11

What he said was;
“And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”

He merely said that they commit adultery. What other laws were in place concerning beating your wife? Were their wives in a position to cause the same kind of harm that American women have grown accustom to causing to their own husbands?

But let me ask you this;
If a Messiah were to pop up and preach to the English that “He who drives of the right side of the road is guilt of sin” and the world later heard it, would you consider that every American is a sinner by that Messiah’s word?

I asked you if I could assume that you meant “given the circumstances…” You seem to have now said that it doesn’t matter what the circumstances are, what country you are in, what other laws are in place at the time or what the ethics of the nation might be.

So you seem to want to pick out one law from one set of people and other laws from others, perhaps the Romans, a few from the Greeks, a few from the Persians, and maybe a few from Mexico, then mix and match to suit your leisure and when it doesn’t work out right, you blame the person who first spoke the law for his own people.

Isn’t that what you are alluding to?

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Thanks DL for the explanation.

A few comments:

Isn’t it idealistic that you’ll reach the ideal?

So as they say in Buddhism. “Ye are it.” Why reach for the ideal if we’re already there. Wouldn’t we by seeking be running away from the ideal we are already?

???

Done that in spades.

True. I can’t remember where I put mine. But I could find it if I tried.

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Actually, that is not what was being said.

You need to put this comment into context… in that the Pharisees were fixated on getting Jesus to say something that contradicted the law of Moses.
It was said in such a way that it was not in direct opposition but was at the same time in opposition.
What you are ignoring is the women’s rights at-that-time and the penalty for publically opposing the laws at the time.

Only the vocal minority are literalists and not the silent majority (but we are addicted to the drama of extremes).

As a non-believer this is fairly self explanatory when reading the Bible.

Hence, I go with JSS on this one.

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James

Jesus also said that that was not in the beginning indicating that his no divorce law was the right one. He was agreeing with God as one would expect.

You cannot distort his preference for what he thought God had demanded. Christians have been using it to bludgeon women all these years so do not indicate that suddenly, Christianity has a different theology.

Regards
DL

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Absolutely. It is within you.

“Isn’t it idealistic that you’ll reach the ideal?”

No. Every time the door opens and you find God, or what most call God, you recognize that he or she, if you are a female, must continue to evolve just as he or she has always done. The bar of excellence gets raised and the seeking continues.

We learn from the past and move on.

youtube.com/watch?v=FHDwRECFL8M

Regards
DL

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Jesus did contradict the laws of Moses. Not just in divorce but also in the Sabbath. Before Jesus, man was made for the Sabbath. Jesus flipped that and said the Sabbath was made for man and that is what the picking of sticks story was all about.

The real law Jesus would have been pointing to would be that marriage was also made for man and not man for marriage.

Man is to always be master and not be dictated to by his customs fashions and myths. Man is to control and use God. Not God use and control the masses.

Regards
DL

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Well, Jesus’ and Hebrew positions on marriage are more than just the one sentence Greatest I am raised. The Old Testament Hebrews endorsed polygamy and Jesus didn’t, for example. You can’t really evaluate lax/strict views on divorce without considering that one system lets you have as many wives as you can afford and the other doesn’t.

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Then it is a simple problem to solve. Stop complaining and become Jewish!
It is no skin off my nose!

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As a Gnostic Christian, the Jesus I know puts love above all and Jesus knew that a man slaves himself to his wife and that a man can only serve one master. Mistress that is.

It is not so much that a man cannot love more than one woman or a woman cannot love more than one man, it is more a matter of trust and commitment to the other that you have made promises to.

To your last.

Imagine if women of that day had demanded to have as many husbands as they could afford.

I ask Muslims sometimes if women get 72 studs each in heaven and how they will like standing in line. No reply.

Regards
DL

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I am already a cut above. I am a Gnostic Christian. We do have some of the Jewish Cabalism in us though.

Regards
DL