Christian Conundrum

If everyone’s guilty of everything, then no one’s guilty of anything.

If I murder you, and you’re guilty of committing adultery, of lying, cheating, stealing and murdering, whether in the heart or in the flesh, in Christianity it doesn’t matter, then I’m not guilty of murder, because you deserved to die, but then if all the people you’ve wronged are guilty, then you’re not guilty, which makes me a murderer after all, or does it? It can be seen either way.

Jesus taught: "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

Jesus was the founder of Christianity. Therefore, in Christianity, it does matter.

And 2 + 2 = chocolate chip matters to someone with Down’s.

What matters in philosophy is reason.

Ergo, in philosophy, Christianity doesn’t matter.

It does when Christianity is part of the proposition as in yours. Your proposition makes a factual assumption about Christianity which turns out to be untrue. Since that doesn’t matter to you, let me point out another assumption you make which is that is OK for an individual to execute a guilty party. Thus, your proposition assumes what it seeks to prove. Not only that but murder is a legal term so it always implies guilt. So saying that murder is ever OK is a contradiction. So, your proposition is also linguistically incoherent. You would have to change murder to kill. But then the apparent novelty of what you are trying to demonstrate disappears. What is left is that killing under certain circumstances may be warranted which is a rather commonsensical statement unworthy of a post. What you attempted to show to be a conundrum no longer appears to be one. What seemed to be a logical conundrum turns out to be the product of confused thinking.

I didn’t assume everything about the bible is true, I conveniently assumed one thing - everyone is guilty of everything, to demonstrate the insanity that follows. In philosophy, we sometimes do this to explore the implications of beliefs or hypothetical situations. if you don’t want to do that then perhaps you should ignore my thread, as much as you can, as mod. If everyone is guilty then everyone is innocent. If even thinking about killing is equivalent to killing, then how can I be guilty of wanting to kill you, or killing you, if you want to kill everyone, or have killed someone? You deserve to die. How can a murderer own property? How can I covet or steal from a man or woman who should be put to death, his or her property divided among the living? Can you see the absurdities implicit in the NT? If I mistreat someone, they’re only reaping what they’ve sown.

An eye for eye, a tooth for a tooth…

Also… incoherent… Also, in other words, the NT is Also incoherent.

Nothing but incoherence can follow from we’re all guilty of murder.

If everyone is guilty, then no one is guilty, if no one is guilty, then everyone is guilty, it’s a conundrum.

Antithesis

How does that work? Is guilt absolved by reason of everyone having done it? There seems to be something missing from that logic but I can’t quite put my finger on it. Anyway, no one person could be guilty of everything or at least I don’t think they could.

Do the above, except for the murder perhaps, justify your committing the same act? If those things were only fantasized about in the mind and the heart, then you are NOT truly guilty of murder. Christianity has nothing to do with anything. I may be misunderstanding you here, but even the church says that a sin can only be when acted upon. I might fantasize about killing someone but that is not the sin and it isn’t even illegal.

What’s the basis for you knowing their guilt? Perception is everything in our eyes but very often wrong.
Why would You be any less guilty having had committed the same crime?
In your world, we would all be dead. In your world, it is an eye for an eye.

You make it seem as though your actions are dependent on other’s actions? If you’ve done something, you’ve done it. Others having done the same thing, doesn’t mitigate or change that. Of course, if someone wants to kill you, if it’s a case of kill or be killed, it’s only logical to kill first. If you’re human, you might feel guilty about that afterwards but that’s a different case.

Does that change the reality of your actions? You’re justifying your actions which many of us do without taking responsibility.
You sound like a vulture.

There is such a thing as cause and effect. We can and do reap what we sow through our own actions, but if we mistreat someone, we are the ones doing the mistreating no matter what you tell yourself. That doesn’t change responsibility.

I’m not seeing an argument here, just an assertion. “If I kill somebody, and they are guilty of a bunch of horrible things, then I’m not guilty of murder”. Why should we believe this? It’s not what Christianity teaches, it’s not what any other religion teaches, it’s not how any legal system I’ve ever heard of operates, and it’s not the position of any ethical philosopher I’ve ever heard of either.

 This bizarre position isn't a problem for Christianity until it is [i]defended[/i] somehow, I should think. Until then, it seems perfectly consistent to believe that just because a human has done horrible things, doesn't mean it's non-evil to do horrible things to them.

I was trying to say what you just said but you said it in a clearer more distinct and better understood way.

I agree that assuming that everyone is guilty of everything makes no sense. It isn’t a practicable policy. Christianity doesn’t ordinarily teach or practice that. {There is always the possibility of some marginal group somewhere that may be attempting it.} A typical Christian interpretation of the sentence you seem to be referring to is that Jesus was using hyperbole to set a higher standard of self examination. By taking it literally you went beyond what even most Biblical literalists believe. So your proposition is true but trivially so, because nobody is asserting that everyone is actually guilty of everything. Not the Bible, not Christians, not anybody else that I know of. Just you.

Try and get that one past the judge. Murder is a legal matter. The courts define the term. And murderers, of even those that may deserve it, get you time behind bars, or worse … if in Texas.

Some dudes teach that Jesus had to die for our sins.
Then they go around and say we still have to pay for our sins.

Well His blood washes as white as snow … however that works … but our sins are still there on the ground … condemning us … must be.

Actually Jesus, they say, died for ours sins … but they don’t think it thru. It’s a faith thing.

I’ve been told tho, that when I reach the judgment seat, Jesus will speak up and say “I died for him. Come enter heaven.” While the slob that didn’t believe He died for him, will go burn forever, and not be incinerated, nor cremated.

And this brings comfort to them … that the neighbor Jesus said to love, will burn forever and ever. Such love we should all avoid.

Some Christians need exorcism.

Arc

We’ve all fantasized about murder at one time or another. We all would’ve murdered someone by now if we had the opportunity, if not in cold blood, then in hot. If Satan miraculously handed you a gun and/or a get out of jail free card that time you were fighting with your boss, landlord or spouse, you would’ve pulled the trigger without hesitation. Everyone is capable of everything. Had you been born in another time/place, it would’ve been you shoveling Jews, Gypsies and Gays into the crematoriums or raping Palestinian girls. It would’ve been you molesting boys in ancient Athens and Rome, owning serfs and slaves, or cannibalizing your neighbors during famine. That’s what the Jesus, assuming he wasn’t a mythological character, was saying - everyone’s a psychopath, everyone’s a serial killer. We’re all human, we all share 99.99% of the same DNA. There’s no behavior you can point to and say - that’s totally alien or foreign to me, which is not to say some people are a little more like this or that than others, but we’re all fundamentally the same. If we’re all guilty, then we’re all innocent. How can I be scum for killing scum? So the Jesus’s sacrifice, again, assuming he wasn’t a mythological character, which he probably was, like the Buddha, was in vain, as we haven’t done anything wrong, we’re all innocent.

You evidently know nothing of Christianity, you probably haven’t read the NT or the OT, you’re just going off of rumors and shit. If the bible is about anything, it’s about this - human beings are wretched, despicable creatures, that’s why a flood was sent to wipe out all of humanity. Did the bible not say only one man (Noah) in the whole world was righteous? Think of that, the whole world? Adam and Eve following the devil, Sodom and Gomorrah being burned to the ground. If some people are righteous and some aren’t, then why is forgiveness necessary? “He who condemns shall be condemned by his own standard of condemnation”. Why? Because the Jesus hates hypocrites, and scumfucks who condemn other scumfucks are exactly that, because they’re essentially condemning themselves. Did Paul not say no one is righteous, not one person could be saved, had the Jesus not been sacrificed? No one was sufficiently good. the spirit is willing, flesh is weak. Does it not say no one can be saved by their own deeds, everyone is solely dependent on the Jesus’s sacrifice for salvation?

Sure it does, again, how can I be guilty of eating your flesh, when if, under different circumstances, you’d be eating mine?

We’re all vultures, I’m a vulture, you’re a vulture, whoever’s the bigger vulture is of little or no consequence. I steal what you covet.

We are what we are, no? Can a leopard change its spots?

A lot of words, no defense of your premise.

“Strawman”.

antithesis…

Let me refresh my memory. I am not so sure that I have taken it that far. I’m not saying that I couldn’t. lol

You may be projecting here. The only circumstances under which I might, in the heat of the moment, would probably have to do with children, especially my own. But even then, we can’t really say for sure until we met that moment face to face.

There have been more than a few times in my life when I might have felt erroneoulsy justified in this (my perception) BUT I would not have done what you suggested. God himself, if there be one, might tell me to and even to a god, I would not listen to. I am NOT Abraham! lol Even if the laws were changed, we do not live in the jungle and we do not have an animal’s mentality – we have evolved, up to a point that is. We each have our own code to live by.
I don’t believe there is a devil…the daemon (not possession) is within us, but we choose to put the responsibility elsewhere.

I don’t agree with you here. There are things of which I am simply not capable. You have a rather poor opinion of ALL of human nature, don’t you? Sure, if one is a sociopath or a psychopath or loses all reason and empathy and compassion, perhaps then.
And since our brains and our minds and our experiences are not totally equivalent to one another’s, it’s impossible that that would be correct.
But I might understand in your case how you might think that way since misery needs company. :evilfun:

I can’t really answer to this but only based on who I intuit and know myself to be NOW at my core. And NOW, there is no way I would be doing any of those things. Even thinking back in time, I cannot see myself doing those things, but perhaps it is only because I judge as I AM NOW. And let’s not forget the many other wonderful human beings who fought against such things. If you want to see things, see everything or as much as you possibly could.
Most of your statements are those of an “absolutist”. All one can say is “possibly” - one cannot know - except for you perhaps. :wink:

I’m an agnostic now. At one time I was a Catholic, a Christian. But I think you had better re-read the NT. There is nowhere where Christ said those things or even implied them. Your imagination is running amuck.lol I think you’re putting words in Christ’s mouth. What you need to do is ask yourself: Why?! Why do I feel this way?
Even IF christ is a mythological character, those words were still not said or implied. You can show me where you “believe” they were said? I didn’t realize that the bible was THAT MUCH open to interpretation.

Again, I do not see it that way. I may know and see that certain behaviors exist in the world, are within our nature, or within our brains, some more than others’ nature, to different degreees, but that doesn’t mean that we will all act on that. This is what we have evolved consciousness for and we are capable of transcending our animal natures – that is, if we choose to. You cannot put all of us in the same brewing pot. We are individuals.

:laughing:
That would depend. If you’re a hitman for the CIA, the government might not think so. Lol
Admittedly, perhaps on some emotional and perhaps even rational? level, I can also agree with you on this, depending on why you killed the scum. But would I follow your example? I certainly hope not. If we actually followed through on our “beliefs” or “justifications” or “reasoning” or “logic”, according to our own perceptions, lol, it would be a pretty chaotic world, don’t you think? I suppose that even a hitman for the CIA would have his own code that he lived by and perhaps would not kill some scum which the government perceived.

Lol – why are you so afraid to admit that you are human, capable of being faulty? Why do you consider yourself to be so innocent since others are guilty? As I said, I was once a Christian/catholic. Hell, I was raised in a catholic orphanage. Christ’s sacrifice was about supposedly opening the gates of heaven again (not that I believe there are any) and about taking away the so-called original sin of adam and eve – (which to me was no more than a conscious decision to think for one’s self, to go beyond one’s fears and chains and to become conscious). To those who do believe, that sacrifice was not in vain. But it also does not exclude us from responsibility for the inhumane and thoughtless and unloving things which we do – and simply because others have done the same things.

That’s the personal interpretation of another human being, also your own. I don’t necessarily think that the bible is inspired by a god. As a matter of act, I don’t intuit that at all. There is a larger picture, you know. Humans are not ALL of what you said. There is the good and beautiful side of many of them. It’s a shame you cannot see that. I will agree with you though that a lot of what is written in the bible is based on rumor and interpretion…and much hyperboly. There is real history there though.

You do realize that that time was not as the world is today. And I do not believe for a moment that Noah was the only righteous one who walked the face of the Earth. That’s kind of arrogant, don’t you think? Learn to THINK for yourself.

Forgiveness is necessary so that we can move on – either forgiveness of ourselves from ourselves or the forgiveness of others.
Tell me, do you believe that the righteous would forgive the sinner (stupid word that-sinnerlol).
Let’s not forget too, that “the righteous” can take on negative connotations. The pharisees were righteous to themselves. Many of us are righteous or self-righteous at times. I can sometimes be aware of that in myself though i don’t like to see it.

So, what’s your point here?

But it isn’t. Perhaps to an overly-scrupulous person it is but not to a reasonable person.

That’s the law of the jungle. Even self-defense does not apply in every state. Of course, if someone was trying to really kill me, I would do everything in my power to prevent that – even to the point of killing that person. I might hate myself afterward in a way – BUT…
Rational people do not, for the most part, take the law into their own hands. It is there for a purpose. They may want to but reason dictates that they do not.
Our negative thoughts do not send us to prison – just acting on them do. But we do have to be careful about those thoughts as we have been unfortunately and tragically reminded of in the news. It all begins somewhere. But probably not with all.

LOL. You want to assume that under different circumstances, I would be eating your flesh. We cannot know either way what my response or actions might be. Truth be told, here I cannot even be sure if guilt would enter into the equation. Lol. There is the survival of the fittest. But, until we’re actually faced with something, we can’t know what we would do – at least in an extreme case such as that. Some things, we do know beyond the shadow of a doubt that we wouldn’t do.

I thought you just said that we are vultures. But I do at times recognize the vulture or the characteristic of the vulture in all of us, or many of us. Not all are vultures.
A leopard may not be able to change its spots- perhaps sometime in the future we humans may help him along in that but a human can change his/her spots by reason of having evolved consciousness. We can reflect on ourselves and make self-aware choices for ourselves. We are NOT totally at the mercy of our fallible humanity.

antithesis-----you sound familiar to me…you sound like a troll…

If I am not mistaken, for those who think otherwise - that we still do not have to pay for our sins, our present moment ones, that would be called the sin of presumption.
For us to even think that way, wouldn’t that be kind of illogical? We can do and say whatever we want without recrimination or having to take responsibility for it? That’s why, within the catholic church, there is the confessional. Human nature being what it is, we will make more mistakes. But the idea is that if we are really sorry, and intend to do our best NOT to commit those same sins, resolve not to, then we are absolved from those sins. We are free again.

Ultimately, we all do pay for the things we do, don’t we? That nasty cause and effect works that way unless we don’t see it that way.