Christianity and Paganism ... How to reconcile???

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
1

Hello - am a newbie here :stuck_out_tongue: and theres something that’s been bothering me for a while but I’ve just never had an opportunity to ask …

Knowing the history of christianity … how can christians reconcile the convenient changes made by Constantine and the Roman Church to entice conversion yet still believe that the Bible and the Christian “way” is truth?

Obviously, I take these changes as historical facts as I don’t think they can be disputed (even on the most basic level of Christmas trees and pagan traditions / christmas falling around the winter solstice etc) but I’d be very interested in hearing some modern day opinions

Oh, and nice to meet you :slight_smile:

2

That’s for the topic! Which changes do you mean?
The Christmas tree isn’t a good example, since that’s actually not a part Christian doctrine- you won’t find it referenced in the Bible, it’s not a sacrament or an official ritual or anything like that. I guess that’s my solution to the problems you’ve brought up so far- we could move Christmas to September and celebrate it by restoring old cars instead of decorating trees, and it wouldn’t affect the faith at all.

3

:confused: Whats for the topic? Did you give me a slap or something? :blush:

Fair point on the christmas tree thing - but then again, the Romans did make it very clear, at the time of their occupation of Europe, that so long as Christianity was endorsed generally, local (usually paganistic) traditions could be maintained. Which goes back to my point that the parrametres of christianity were flexed, and in my mind undermined, to accommodate an easy, and perhaps symbolic, conversion.

Jesus’ word was his word … no matter when it was heard or retold. I struggle to appreciate how His word could then be changed to be the carrot of enticement of Constantine to secure power and yet here we are, centuries later, still following those rules… you know?

4

Oh, whoops! It’s supposed to say ‘Thanks for the topic’. :slight_smile:
I agree with you about the nature of conversion back then. Fundamentalism then was different than now- can you imaging a modern Christian changing the date of one of the holy days to fit the demands of their culture? Ridiculous, blasphemous, maybe. But from the Emporer’s perspective it makes sense. If you’re going to change the official religion of your people, it won’t do to declare ’ no more holidays’, and if you switch them all around, the common person will just stay pagan rather than trying to learn all the new rules. So I don’t know if it’s the best decision religiously, but it makes sense as a matter of state. As far as the legitimacy of the conversions go, I’m sure it was a mix, just like today.
Woah woah woah, changing Jesus’ word is a whole other claim from when we have our holidays. I don’t think Constantine did that.

5

Oh please, no! Doesn’t the U.S. already have enough neighborhoods with old junk cars in the yards? The only thing worse would be to hang lights all over them every September. (And you know that most would just leave them lit up all year.) :frowning:

I lived in Rome for a while and, while there, learned how so many of the Catholic religious sites were selectively chosen in order to build on top of the pagan ones. You can call them many things, but “subtle” would not be one of them, lol. I just chalk it up to ‘winner takes all’. And who knows, a time may come when reason and rationality prevail over mysticism and belief. I suppose then it’ll be time to build research facilities, think tanks, laboratories and schools (secular, of course) on top of all the church sites.

6

I know of two, Jesus speaks against excessive consumption of wine, historians like to accuse x of eliding the bible to agree with Constantines wishes.

  1. and more likely as we have the original greek texts.

Jesus about John, when he was his disciple:-

Of any man on Earth only John is above me.

Pretty much it in the Greek text used as a source for The Bible.

In the Bible.

Of any man on Earth only John is above me, and in the kingdom of heaven John is the least amongst men.

Ok I’m paraphrasing but you get the gist of it.

Which of course means Jesus is above John

I’m sure there are others, but few are easy to prove, at least not as easy as that one.

Translation is not always accurate either, Though shalt not suffer a witch to live is mistranslated from though shalt not suffer a poisoner to live.

I know not very satisfying, but if the texts were changed, it’s likely that the originals were destroyed, so your pretty much stuffed. :slight_smile:

7

Hi Pixie

This will appear harsh but it is because it is not Christianity. In reality you are referring to what Kierkegaard defined as Christendom or man made Christianity. We do know the history of Christendom.

What are these eyes and ears Jesus is referring to? Why aren’t the ones we use sufficient to understand Christianity?

Would there be a difference in the tension that exists over misunderstanidngs if people came to admit that they don’t understand what this means and lack these new eyes and ears? Instead of discussing variations of Christendom, people tried to understand what is meant by “eyes and ears” and how to acquire them for the sake of returning from Christendom to Christianity, your question IMO would be much easier to answer?

8

Pixie, from where do you get this stuff you’re saying?

mrn