From “A Man Without A Country”–Vonnegut (2005)–
"‘Socialism’ is no more an evil word than ‘Christianity’. Socialism no more prescribed Joseph Stalin and his secret police and shuttered churches than Christianity prescribed the Spanish Inquisition. Christianity and socialism alike, in fact, prescribe a society dedicated to the proposition that all men, women and children are created equal and shall not starve.
" About shuttered churches, and those in China today: such supression of religion was supposedly justified by Karl Marx’s statement that "religion is the opium of the people.’ Marx said that back in 1844, when opium and opium derivatives were the only effective painkillers anyone could take. Marx himself had taken them. He was grateful for the relief they had given him. He was simply noticing, and surely not condemning, the fact that religion could also be comforting to those in economic or social distress. It was a casual truism, not a dictum.
“When Marx wrote these words, by the way, we hadn’t freed our slaves yet. Who do you imagine was more pleasing in the eyes of a loving God back then, Karl Marx or the United States of America?”
In “Democracy in America” Alexis De Tocqueville notes that a problem with our type of democracy is a conflict between freedom and equality. This conflict seems also to describe how socialism in our time is seen as an evil in the USA.
All men shall not starve ?
You’re not by any chance talking about a famine somewhere in Africa or are you? Or is this a prophecy about a huge rock hitting the planet and destroying the crops world wide ?
Actually what I think is that socialism says no man shall starve by himself but all must starve too and wait on long lines for toilet paper while the party members get their toilet paper delivered to their door front .
socialism has just about destroyed Africa.
American Christians are split between democrats and republicans
what America needs is to gather all the sympathy cases who are on welfare and kick them out of the country and replace them with hard working immigrants who are willing to live and work for the American dream. because the thing that’s going to destroy America and freedom for sure is going to be all that welfare state ideas and big government which is the same thing that destroyed the roman empire .
down with socialism . long live free market economy and small government and the right to carry fire arms and Frank Sinatra…i did it my way .and viva las Vegas. .te amo las vegas , mi vita me espranza mi amore listen tell the girls i am coming . yes women and whiskey . produce so you may enjoy yourself .
the American founding fathers said all men are created equal meaning no aristocracy .
okay . go ahead and shoot . ball in your court
All men are not created equal, just the opposite. But all men are heir to equal rights to their life, liberty and property.
Not to defend Christianity, but for them at least, charity was voluntary, while for socialism, it is mandatory for the masses but not the elite. Ergo the tp analogy.
Christianity and socialism have several characteristics in common.
One is that they put the highest value on the rights of every human, not a few. To propose that humans have different, unequal rights is self-destructive, because it puts the proposer at risk by his own definition. So in that resepct, both have viability as philosophies.
Christianity and socialism have never been practised on a large scale, and probably never will be.
Churches are the socialistic structure within the religions. Christianity proposes nothing concerning socialism other than the priority to love thy neighbor… as thyself. Christianity does not propose that you are owned by the state/church, Socialism does.
Inherent in Socialism is an aristocracy, a privileged few who control the much larger mass. In pure Communism (the ultimate form of Socialism), the aristocracy are not allowed to display wealth yet still maintain power to control. Hidden control is the modern way of control and thus Communism is inevitable as the lust for power keeps those in power blindly grasping for more.
Denominations are extensively recognised and cultured by capitalists.
In the early eighties the Chinese communists threw the towel in and allocated 2% of the agricultural land to peasants to grow crops for profit. The first year of that program that 2% produced 30% of the china agricultural output.
Listen here is what you do. you take any of those big shot countries and you calculate how many million tons of grain they need every year . what you watch out for is the amount that’s needed to feed cattle. If there is not enough grain to feed the cattle that means the cattle have to be slaughtered. That is not going to be allowed and war will break out . surplus American grain and Canadian grain plays a very important role in terms of world peace.
Don’t just think people , thinks cattle too. Cows can cause wars.
Go through the list . next is vegetable oil. I think till recently the usa supplied 20% of china Soya oil needs. But brazil is there somewhere too .
Churches are playing an important role in parts in Africa in terms of forming the suitable type of citizen for a constitutional democracy. Churches are organized with constitutions and by laws .categories of members with voting rights and quorums and and and . lay members get to learn about these things and applying them in resolving their differences and competing interests
Its not an accident that the republic exited in puritan America while Europe was mired in dictatorships such as Bismarck and and and. And hence Alex Tocqueville visit . he was one hell of talented young man but he forgot to mention that what was behind it all was the protestant method of organizing their churches . to see it you have to come to Africa and watch the intense debates between church members as they maneuver to further their interest in a non violent way and to gracefully accept defeat … hey Jesus is simply amazing
Churches are not only tools of capitalism, but they also help foster the oppression required to keep people in line and willing to work as exploited laborers. After all, there’s money and power involved, and the thought of wielding power has always been attractive and intoxicating notwithstanding corruptive.
The cow comes from the grass. The milk comes from the cow that came from the grass. The grass comes from the dirt and the sun. Grass mostly comes from the sun. Grass comes from sunlight.
Food effervesess out of thin air. food is free.
It is proprietoriship of mother earth that cause starving.
This is the house that Jack built!
This is the malt that lay in the house that Jack built.
This is the rat that ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.
This is the cat that killed the rat
That ate the malt that lay in the house that Jack built.
This is the dog that worried the cat
That killed the rat that ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.
This is the cow with the crumpled horn
That tossed the dog that worried the cat
That killed the rat that ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.
This is the maiden all forlorn
That milked the cow with the crumpled horn
That tossed the dog that worried the cat
That killed the rat that ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.
This is the man all tattered and torn
That kissed the maiden all forlorn
That milked the cow with the crumpled horn
That tossed the dog that worried the cat
That killed the rat that ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.
This is the priest all shaven and shorn
That married the man all tattered and torn
That kissed the maiden all forlorn
That milked the cow with the crumpled horn
That tossed the dog that worried the cat
That killed the rat that ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.
And so on…
You seem to get it and are not blaming the poor for being poor!
Good to get your input. The new ILP server does not give me e-mail proof of posts. So many here seem to confuse what is moral with what is expedient; and, in so doing, misinterpret both Christianity and socialism. The moral issue is not what Marxism became, it is what of Marx’s sentiments alligns with those of Jesus. The moral issue is the apparently unwinnable contest between equality of what humans deserve and freedom as liscence as Tocqueville observes. Our local newspaper just ran a letter to the editor about Jesus teaching socialism. It got the same responses as I’m getting here–a fudging of the Sermon on the Mount to fit some concept of “enlightened selfishness”, the heart of capitalism. Currently, the largest issues in our democracy have to do with conflict over majority rule as trumping minority rights. That’s been the issue really since the last mid-century. It is a moral issue.
Separate religion from politics? It can’t be done. Although there is separation of church and state, the machinery of our democracy turns on votes; and folks vote their faith.
Thanks. I also miss and need the e-mail notices for post replies.
That idea of “enlightened selfishness” is an oxymoron at best… just like the “self-regulating free market,” hawhaw.
Have you seen Adam Curtis’ films, particularly The Trap? It’s a great cautionary eye opener on game theory and the way that humans just can’t seem to get the way self-interest is supposed to work, in that there seems to be an inherent altruism that always screws up the works.
And don’t even get me started on separation of church and state. The churchrats will come out and start bleating about how this country was founded as a Christian nation, when in fact it was founded by Deists on enlightenment principles. Everyone should study the writings of Thomas Jefferson, as they were actually written of course, and then read The Treaty of Tripoli.
Jonquil,
Thanks again. According to Tocqueville the founding fathers based their ideals of government on teachings of Moses, not teachings of Jesus. And yes, I realize, as many here seem not to, that some of the founding fathers were deists. For anyone who wants to do the research, the concepts that went into the founding of the American democracy came from Descartes and Locke. Unfortunately, the type of individualism these philosphers spoke of has been translated into "I got mine; you get yours; “anybody can pull himself up by his own bootstraps” and, “if you can’t do so, something’s wrong with you”.
Jesus shines his light one me. Opens my eyes so I can see. When I look up in the darkest night and I know everything is going to be alright. In deep confusion in great despair when I reach out for him he is there. I know that god shines his light on me and he says I can be there in Jesus name. He is the truth . He is the light. Get your feet ahead on higher ground.
Holy whiskey ! You got to really have heart to go into battle against the Christians. They charge with the bible in one hand and the machine gun in the other. Give no quarter and accept none. The fiercest warriors are Jesus boys. Don’t ask me how I know. I just know.
They say that Stalin greatest achievement was in turning simple Christian peasants into warriors in the second world war…
One story goes, one Russian general had the troops lined up and asked every third man to step forward and shot him in the head point blank. Then he told them to go fight. Seven million and half of them converged on the Germans. What a battle it must have been .
My advice don’t take on a Christian unless you have ingested a considerable amount of my herbs. Another great advice don’t rile up the Christians. They are being very nice lately. So let them stay that way . . You ain’t got what it takes to go toe to toe with them . it behooves a man to know his place because the world will have mercy on those who respect the limits of their abilities .
I think they breed the cows in places like Texas and then transport them to the corn plains where they are fattened quickly before they are sent to the slaughter house . its an amazingly efficient system . the whole of the American cow herd doesn’t exceed a mere 15 million and yet they are able to produce more far more beef than African countries who have cow herds several times the size of the American herd .
You have to know what you’re doing though. Sometimes you have to stick a tube inside the cow to vent the gas . also you can forget about the cow liver. Most of it get damaged due to the intense fattening process .
The number of American farmers dwindled over the decades to a small number of highly efficient high tech cut throat producers so that its cheaper for African countries to buy the grain from America than to grow it at home. it cost much more to grow grain , sometimes twice as much .The UN already experimented with that in Africa and gave up. its cheaper to buy it from America, Canada and Europe.
Do you see? Sun and land and crap got nothing to do with it. Give the bums control of American farm lands and they will starve… Because land is not the reason why nor is sun the reason why. The reason why is bum hood .
Take all the Americans and put them in the desert . Then take all the bums and put them in America. Come back next year and you will find the desert green and flush with grain and the bums have managed to turn America into a desert.
The good news Americans are generous people. They sell you their grain and then they turn around and tell you to forget about paying the loan which they have lent you to buy the grain from them.
Go ahead go try to feed yourself off of the earth . It alright because when you screw up the Americans are there to give you grain.so talk all you want . just be careful one day Americans don’t build space ships and leave the planet because then you will in a whole heap of trouble.
Monumental ignorance about agriculture is quite common.
Alex talked about equality. He is talking quantitative equality. . In amerce the equality is a qualitative equality. I think.but never mind
The minister in the church in the village next to us got fired by the congregation.
Something else . with Christians there was a healthy degree of detachment. The pope wielded considerable power . but the notable thing there were kings in Europe. So if you ran into a problem with pope you could always run and hide with one those kings who wasn’t getting along well with the pope. The same if you had problem with one king. You just took off and went and lived in the burg of an opposing king. In other empires as opposed to the Christian empire the ruler sent one of his cronies to rule over the different parts of the empire he was not from the people. .this is a very important difference . so keep it always in mind.
Rats caused the bubonic plague that decimated one fourth of the European population leading to higher wages . .
When it rains the rats leave their holes in the open and move into people homes where it is dry and bring with them the diseases.
Mice are good. They are delicious when barbecued. the fire burns off the hair. . If you come to visit I promise to have some for dinner. The wife really knows how to cook them well. . Bring catsup with you because we don’t have it here .bring catsup and whiskey.
Cats meat is tough. Kittens though are excellent when baked slowly in hot coal ashes .same with poppies . dog and cat meat you are going to have to stew .
uuh all of this talk about food is making me hungry . I wonder what the wife has made for dinner .
Christians are a very diverse people .I like them though. I have no problem with them. to be honest they have a problem with me and its mostly because of me. . they won’t let me attend church service lately . but i am talking to them . they say they will reconsider .
this post is sub standard . bye
Interesting. It’s nice to know someone so well read in political philosophy and history. I have a friend who is so knowledgeable in this arena it boggles the mind, and that of course led me to widen my knowledge and raise my consciousness over things I had no idea of, mainly to do with the secret or under-published reports of doings behind the obvious state stuff. I know I should read de Tocqueville and historians like Howard Zinn and others, but for some reason I just don’t. So it’s nice to hear from the ones that have and learn from them. thanks
According to the NT, the first followers of Jesus practiced a kind of voluntary socialism under the inspiration of the Spririt. Modern NT critics assert that the early followers were less harmonous and unified than the picture in the book of Acts suggests. However, there is evidence that the churches had a socio-economic support system that became the envy of the Roman Empire.
The problem with advancing the cause of socialism today is the general climate of distrust in institutions. The more information people get about government, corporations, major religious organizations, etc. the less people are inclined to believe in them. Given the pattern of corruption within these institutions, the reaction is understandible. However, the result appears to be social fragmentation and anomie which is unhealthy for a cohesive society.
Well stated. Would you agree that the solution must have at its root the idea of social cohesion and cooperacy?
The restoration of society must come from within and cannot come from without. Just as Dantes Inferno is a picture of human society in a state of sin and corruption." In a darkwood, where the right way was lost" I think more and more people are begining to realize this and that the modern experiment to live without religion has failed. The refusal to reach for Heaven is an involuntary descent into Hell For how can I help my neighbor as long as I say like Saint Paul: “My own behavior baffles me. For I find myself not doing what I really want to do but doing what I really loathe”?
Ermm… if religion were the answer to society’s problems, wouldn’t you think that we’d all be living in a utopia by now? 