Closing down all faith based schools

Quote from alt.atheism

“John M.” wrote:

"As most people are probably aware, deliberately putting religious superstitions into the uninformed minds of children is a form of abuse that ranks alongside paedophilia (both sexual and sadomasochistic). Unhappily this former occurs in a greater or lesser extent in all faith based schools. To avoid it, it is necessary to adopt the draconian measure of closing down all such schools, as one finds already in many enlightened countries. An e-petition demanding this from the British government is at:

petitions.pm.gov.uk/faithschools/

It is already the second most widely signed of the current petitions concerning education. I urge all reasonable persons to follow my example and add their names to the list."

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

V responds:

There are many spiritual based schools that are wonderful institutions of learning as well as offering a nurturing and compassionate community to be part of John.

On a road trip last year I was fortunate enough to visit one of them - a Quaker school in Ohio.

olneyfriends.org/

I was very impressed with their work.

Their philosophy:

“Olney Friends School challenges students to grow. We celebrate intellectual vigor, provoke questions of conscience, and nurture skills for living in community. Truthfulness, simplicity, non-violence and respect for the good in every person. We sum these up in our Community Rule: Be truthful; Harm no one.”

Are they the perfect school?

No, but they work towards perfection all the while knowing they are imperfect humans doing the work.

Same with many other spiritual based schools and universities out there doing lots of good my friend.

The Jesuits also do an outstanding job at proving a good education based in a spiritual foundation. If it wasn’t for the Jesuits I would have never been introduced to my philosophy studies.

Would you like to shut down Boston College, Fordham and Loyola because they are Jesuit universities?

Atheists look at this topic with tunnel vision. They like to fantasize what the world would be like if religion would never have been invented.

Sure Christians do bad things, so do all practitioners in other religions. But many of these religious practitioners also do good things John.

What about the atheists?

Well, lets look at some of them to see what the world would be like if it was 100% atheists.

jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/ … opic=509.0

No, I prefer to keep things as they are and keep religions, even with all their warts and imperfections.

I believe religions do more good than harm.

I shudder to think what the world would be like if it was composed solely of atheists John.

You never see atheists taking up charitable works and feeding and clothing the poor in any organized way as Christians do.

There may be the odd atheists philanthropists here or there, but nothing organized like Christians charitable organizations.

I wrote to the president of American Atheists, UK Atheists, the Secular Humanism Foundation, Sam Harris and others about this very topic…none had the courtesy to reply.

Shows how much interest atheists really have in humanity.

Talked with a fellow this weekend that served in the JVC for two years in Micronesia. Was very impressed at the work the JVC does.

Sometimes charitable giving and volunteering to help those in need gets put on the back burner when people argue over religion, politics etc. Have you ever thought of helping others instead of hurting them?

Whether you are atheist, agnostic or theist being humane to humans is within your power. The only thing holding you back is prejudice. Just lose the prejudice and you can be a freed of bondage and become a humane human.

Atheist can serve right along theists and work in charitable organizations. Yes, it is hard work but very rewarding. The JVC also has many US opportuneness as well if you don’t wish to go overseas.

jesuitvolunteers.org/

A few other charitable organizations that serve good causes. Check them out. most accept agnostics or atheists.

The key is a willingness to offer charitable kindness to other humans. This transcends religion or maybe it may be better said is the foundation of all religions when we work to be humane to humans.

habitat.org/

careforceinternational.ca/dnn/

cfcausa.org/

brethrenvolunteerservice.org/

I have no connection with any of these organizations, other than gratitude for the work they carry out.

If anything you should be kissing the asses of the theists that attempt to provide a virtuous education to the young people.

The many countries that the US has been at war with and subsequently lost the war to can be most grateful we were not an atheist country. If we were a country that did not apply Christian principles to our captors millions more would have been killed.

Atheist run countries have a policy of extermination and ethnic cleansing rather than applying charity. Atheist like to claim religion killed so many people…well without religion in world the killings would have been much worse.

When I discussed Christian principles one time an Atheist piped up to say “the Christians have no principles,” and “Jesus was a fabled creation of the Christians.”

When we sperate the personalities from the principles it makes looking at things much easier. When I am referring to Christian principles I speak of such things as charity, works of mercy and the golden rule, where the emphasis is on principles and not on the personalities of the church.

For even if Jesus was just created as a fable, these Christian principles are universal truths in their own right if one desires to live a life at peace and promote the inner peace of others in this world.

“The Corporal Works of Mercy”

To feed the hungry
To give drink to the thirsty
To clothe the naked
To harbour the harbourless
To visit the sick
To ransom the captive
To bury the dead

“The Spiritual Works of Mercy”

To instruct the ignorant
To counsel the doubtful
To admonish sinners
To bear wrongs patiently
To forgive offenses willingly
To comfort the afflicted
To pray for the living and the dead

You see, by applying the rule of reciprocity or rule of opposites we can see if we were in these positions of the needy mentioned above, we would like such charity bestowed on us for the most part. What about our children, parents and loved ones?

Wouldn’t we wish the same for them? We have no loved ones? What about our neighbors? The Christian ethic says to treat one another as we would wish to be treated. As we give ~ so we receive.

Even if an atheist, as we give peace - we receive inner peace as many of the tools I mentioned above do not require belief in God, they only requirement is a desire to be at peace and to bring peace to others. This is the Christian doctrine in a nutshell, when we put principles before personalities.

As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds and water these seeds within you as well.

As James Allen wrote in “As a man Thinketh” ~ To think well of all, to be cheerful with all, to patiently learn to find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts are the very portals of heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of peace toward every creature will bring abounding peace to their possessor."

This is universal truth that transcends man made religions.

Remember, we do not have to do it perfectly. Just look for direction and forget perfection - for perfection or range is of the ego and form is of the soul. There are many tools for peace within the worlds spiritual paths, no one said these paths are perfect, in fact, it was once said that walking the spiritual path is akin to walking on a razors edge. But if we bother to be honest, non prejudicial and to look, we can find tools that can help us be at peace whether atheist, agnostic or believer.

Take care,

V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2

I think that we should close all the churches too.

“Childeren shouldn’t be tought religion until they are 18” -Doug Stanhope

Now thats about the silliest thing I have ever read. Shut down religious schools or churches and don’t expose kids to religion. ROFLMFAO.

Ok I am vehemently opposed to such measures.

I tend to agree with Kriswest…

We should teach religion in schools… what we should NOT do is teach religion as actual fact in schools…

In public schools, children are taught that recycling is an unmitigated good. They are not taught the economics of recycling, so far as I can determine. They are taught propaganda about recycling.

They are taught that global warming is a fact, and that humans have caused it.

They are taught not to eat cupcakes.

They are taught that they should invite everyone to every party, whether they like everyone or not. They are taught egalitarianism.

They are taught that passing a pattern-recognotion test is what really counts in life.

They are taught that marijuana is bad.

They are taught all manner of superstition and propaganda.

In public schools.

The choice between religion and atheism is one of the most important choices we make, it can be argued. But we can’t rightly make that choice if we aren’t well-informed.

What is taught in schools needn’t be gospel - rligious or atheist gospel.

Education is aculturation. Religion is part of our culture. So is freedom of choice - at least for these kids’ parents.

This is still idealistic talk…
From top-to-bottom, such a repeat of what was said by others before.
That’s not “bad”, as nothing is, but it’s still quite common, amoung the philosophers.

No matter whether it be by pleasure or by pain, by canibalism or by altruism, the nature of the earth will favor the survival of the most stable, adaptable and strong processes. A nation run by a powerful lie may in-fact out-do and out-live a nation run by a weak truth… If an idea is strong, no matter how untrue or wrong it may be, if that idea is so-so strong, so prized and favored, peoples will channel all of their creative powers into it, and build an empire overtop of it, though it itself may be something valueless, silly and nonsensical at the root.

If you believed that the creator of the universe was watching you, had plans for you, had a heaven ready for you, loved you, etc. How would that really feel? And if that feeling could be strong enough, it could take the chains of all “reason” and cast them away, as the experience of a greater and more powerful sensation would then be irresistable. At the root, not even reason or logic is generally “true”, though it is nearly perfect at convincing itself of its trueness. Technical conviction, and sophistry, vs passionate faith and sense-estimation. Which shall be stronger?

In the passed, christianity was more intense. It was the greatest and only truth, the only righteous perfection. There was little exposure to anything other than the christian, no internet or mass-media. The churches began to monopolize the mind, and reached out for totality, for absolute control over the earth, as they christianized other nations and spread out a sort of conquest. They crushed their disobediant enemies from the inside out, and valued their allies, also. They were all once fundamentalists, far moreso than today. The intense sensation of ideological madness has calmed down and been replaced by another muse, drugs and intertainment. As one kind of madness looses popularity, another kind of madness gains popularity, as these men still reache for an overpowering sensation.

It’s the antithesis of idealism, Dan~. My point is that we don’t need to look for an “ideal” education.

Mainly, my point is that the OP is disingenuous. Any serious review of education can’t be that simplistic.

The OP is mere politics.

As you say, there is nothing wrong in that. But it’s still just politics.

Ooh, good point. Teach all religions to kids, not just one. :wink:

I think that people are generally fantastic at being disingenuous.
Now if they could only match up to this by being more moderate, conservative and simple-living.

What would society be like, if education was not enforced, almost dogmatically…? – I’m thinking big gangs of crime-groups, that take from the workers instead of working.

Education is probably mostly about civil work, and the religious education is probably mostly about social morals. Both of those things are work-related. Can this whole thing be reduced to an econo-centric issue? That would reduce it to a matter of power and force.

Whooooaaaaa mad man, I did not say that, ROFL, I have no love for religion. There are other reasons for me saying its silly, Economics, socializing, tearing apart overstressed public schools that would have to accept students from closed down religious schools, etc… the list goes on for a bit.

I have no love for religion and absolutely do not agree that religion should be taught in public schools. I just understand that to destroy religion would destroy the fabric of society and thrust us into to some pretty hideous problems. It would be silly to do so.

Dan~ - I think that the higher up you go, grade-wise, in education, the more it concentrates on political economy. I have no problem with that, others do. I agree that education should not be dogmatic. But it shouldn’t be Montessori-ized, either.

In a large country, I think there is room for just about everything, though.

Ahh… sorry… I misunderstood…

In that case I guess i disagree with you :evilfun:

ROFL can’t even stand by someone who has the same goal for different reasons? Well, you are not a proper capitalist. [-X :laughing:

Then it’s settled, professional intellectualism is human-power-centric, not truth-centric.

I happen to lean very mch to the left in the political spectrum… :blush:

But that’s not why I believe in drastic messures… It’s more related to my childhood wisdome… I learned at a young age that when you have a bandage that has to come off… you dont pull it off an inch at a time… you count to three and then rip the sucker off… it’ll hurt for a bit… but then it’s all over…

You don’t “improve” public schools before getting rid of the religious ones… there is no inscentive… you get rid of the religious ones and then watch as every single one from politician to parent to preacher fights to improve the public schools…

I tried leaning left, then tried leaning right, it didn’t work, I kept falling on my face. :laughing:

With your suggestion though the kids will fail horribly for at the very least 6 yrs, I would guess.

That is almost a whole generation of pretty screwed up humans. Its bad enough right now. Lets not sink the ship too quickly.

First of all… I seriously doubt it would take 6 years to rectify the public school situation… I’m guessing maybe 2-3 years tops… given the vested interrest of the entire community… it’d be done very very quickly…

And yes… when you rip off the badage it’s gonna hurt!!! but it only lasts for so long… and after that you’re all set!

Demolish and burn them, even.

MMP, no way 2 or 3 yrs. think committees, politics, advocates, states, cities, counties, etc… No way could so many people rectify the public school systems in such a short time. Add to the already existing problems thousands of kids being thrown in? New schools will have to be built property bought, funding for more teachers, construction, equipment, supplies, etc…Gads, its a logistic nightmare right now. More kids will break the back of a piss poor situation. 6 yrs minimum.

Oh and if you think that churches will turn over their land and schools to the public without a major fight,ROFL add another 7 yrs just for court cases and appeals.