Trix, I guess you didn’t hear about the american undercover CIA agent whose identity was somehow leaked to the Media right after her husband, the former ambassedor to Iraq, spoke out against Bush’s war. Not to say i support the CIA, but that woman’s life was put in danger because of her family’s opinion.
Supression of freedom is not limited to facist/communit governments.
In “Free” market economies money becomes the only goal and theivery and corruption are rewarded. Rather than treating money/currency/comodities like what they are, resources. And people who are able to amass wealth do so only at the expense of others. In these win-lose economies, the insanely wealthy become bored with only amassing wealth and come to a point where they only win, not to make life better for themselves or goddess forbid others, but for the joy they derive from making someone else lose.
I like to think that some day we can live in a win-win economy, where one “wins” when mankind wins.
By the way, Nikol, KSC = Keeper of the Sacred Chao
What’s the difference between Fascism and Communism? Aren’t they both government-directed? (I’m tempted to vote Fascist, as I have heard good things about Franco – who is called fascist, but I dont think I’ve ever heard of a good communist – except maybe at this college I went to.)
Why is there no way to vote for “mixed economy” – for non-laissez-faire capitalist-types? Is this not socialist enough to be called socialist? Is it not free-economy enough to be a free economy? Myself, I tend to think the ecomony, like the libido, is a beast which can be harnessed for good of mankind.
Communism… a wonderful idea. It plays on the part of the mind that somewhat separates us from animals. The idea of complete equality in all aspects of wealth, work, and status is quite appealing on the surface.
Unfortunately, a Communist society would take infinite patience, people aren’t patient. When you don’t have much, you want equality. When you have enough, you’re quite happy keeping it.
Though perhaps you still feel like you would be willing to give everything up to the state for equality, except you can’t convince me to do the same, then where are you? Suddenly, you will end up having to try to kill me to keep everyone equal. My life wasn’t equal to the value of yours, because I wanted to keep my things. Same with any type of punishment. And herein lies a flaw.
Now… communism is not impossible. Here are some situations that communism may well work, and keep stable.
Clones. If everyone thinks and acts like you, there would be no problem, completely equal in all aspects.
Small Scale. In all seriousness, small scale communism can work, there have been successful attempts. Having a local pressure on its citizens will keep the citizens regulated. Also, small scale would allow those who were unhappy with the system to leave, without harm done.
but I must say, this is a worn out argument… I don’t personally want to give up what I have earned. I don’t believe in forced equality. I believe in equality of potential, because everyone deserves a fair chance… but if I’m more able than the next guy… if I have more ambition and ability… the I feel I’m entitled to more than he is.
Nikol_numb:
Fascism isn’t racism. You’re thinking of Nazism. While communism came from socialism. Marx was a socialist.
And yes it is the leaders that abuse communism, not necessarily communism itself. Stalin was not a communist.
My real name:
Politics and economics are interrelated.
In communism class is abolished, in fascism the class hierarchy is maintained. This is where fascism doesn’t really apply to Nazi Germany as they wanted to abolish class. Thus creating their own ideology, Nazism.
Socialism is a mixed economy
Krashash:
You’re kidding yourself if you think we’re separate from animals.
Undergroundman:
Resources are limited. We are fooling ourselves if we assume that technology is going to save us from the destruction we are doing to the natural environment.
I’m socialist. I don’t think private business should have monopoly over natural resources and essential services.
Capitalism was based on exploitation. That’s how it has succeeded today.
communism is an absurdity; I don’t care how good it is in theory, in reality it fails and betrays what it was meant to help. it’s ideology is so weak it has to overcompensate by being overly vicious with those it is supposed to help. I don’t like communism because it allowed people like Stalin, Mao, Ceausescu and Pol Pot to get into power. Castro has helped his people out quite a bit (set up health care etc) but those he has not helped, he has left and/or jailed/kill. you could give any book to overly oppressed masses (“The Democratic Manifesto”) claiming that they should overcome their ‘opressors’ and create a new government where they have that much more power in it/mean more to the oppressors and they would still go up with it. in russia and china revolution was just waiting to happen. the presence of direct communist thinking was unnecessary, a revolution happened and would have eventually happened regardless of the presence of communist thinking.
Fascism is not necessarily racist (it wasn’t originally), Hitler did that to fascism/Mussolini/europe. it has a very negative outlook on it but i’ve read quite a few accounts of people who lived in fascist states (Italy, Spain) and were completely happy and content. Nazism was a new state of totalitarian control and was more vicious/deranged then anything that came before it and in doing so fascism (under Mussolini’s rule) tried to overcompensate to “catch up” with Nazism. Nationalism does lead to racism but it only does so/becomes a problem if it is taken to excess (like anything else in life).
democracy/capitalism is an absurdity. if people like Bush and Hitler can get into power through democratic means (technically that didnt happen wiv Bush [The Idiot, as opposed to the fanatic], we’ll see at the next election how true my statement is). money makes the world go round which is why america is on top because it is the most heartlessly capitalistically based of the countries in the world. i think my view (and Winston Churchill’s) of democracy is summed up in my sig. the next trade problem occurs again and it will be similar to the build up of WWII and how the “National Socialists” got into power etc.
i don’t know anything about socialism so i can’t comment.
certain rules about politics must be understood before they can be fully judged/understood: 1. no-one ever said you had to be moral in politics. the job is to make the country prosper and protect its citizens/continued existence, there’s no mention of morality here. 2. the view is always different from the top i.e. controlling the masses and being a predominant feature in world politics has unseen difficulties which is why some governments with good intentions fail miserably. 3. the power that democracy gives to the common people is only the choice to choose which “image” of the politician it likes the most. they rarely (if ever) choose one over the other for moral issues. 4. the key rule to continued existence isnt overcompensating/oppressing your ideology/citizens. people can live in any state (totalitarian, communist, democratic etc) and have happy lives but the moment you start to oppress their happiness and/or make the wrong decisions, you pay for it.
the form of government doesn’t matter, the point of government should be to protect the citizens (from themselves/other countries sometimes) under all circumstances and NEVER to oppress their enjoyment of their everyday lives. oppress dangerous thinking to the citizens/state (i.e. Nazism) but never unnecessarily oppress the people and in that any solid government will be able to survive for a time (castro, franco; strength of the leader, not the system) regardless of what form it is.
That’s the point i’ve been trying to make. Everyone deserves a fair chance. Higher status should not be given to someone because of who their father was. Equality… It’s just basic humanity. And i called faccism racist,to make a point. point is clearly made. THat was a stereotypical comment that linked nazism to racism. funny thing is people can’t seem to stop linking communism to Stalin, Mao (who was not that bad BY THE WAY!! he had the support of the people which is why the US lost Vietnam), Castro etc.
Jah bless…
AAAAH!!! i cannot believe how stupid that was!! correction to my own mistake! US lost Vietnam cos of MINH, not Mao. As for Mao… no argument here. he was a nutter too…
surely the extremes which the average communist leader goes to/becomes seems to tell us something about communism, its ideology and its implementation into real life? i.e. that it sucks/is flawed and you have to over-compensate (become a stalin, pol pot) to make it possibly work even just for a limited time?
Castro has done alright because he’s had the threat of america for so long (they’ve unintentionally helped him stay in power for making it hard on the country/castro so the people see it as a form of david/goliath), he ain’t dead (regimes are difficult to effetively live past their founders) and he’s finished off most forms of resistance to him over the years so there are few left to effectively oppose him. when he dies (which should be quite soon cuz he’s pretty old now) communism in Cuba will fall either with or without american intervention and then there will be one less communist country on the map.
If only it were possible to have an equal chance from birth… Competition would be high, and the one who worked the hardest would get the highest position in life.
Unfortunately, thats an ideal that is not possible.
I wish we could all think like I do… then we would have a perfect society.
Boethius basically says the life’s not fair… and that fortune is fickle. This sums up everything I believe about luck of the draw. If someone’s father was rich and powerful, good for him. I will continue to work towards my success. Concerning failure, its that much harder I have to try, because I believe in hard work, and the reward obtained in it. I don’t see the point in bitching about other people’s advantages from luck of the draw, or even thier hard work, take the time to quit bitching, and use it as motivation to try harder.
…
Although, one case I do see myself getting angry at is Enron… making the numbers up and getting richer. The greediest of the greedy. I will be with Lewis Black on this one… put them in the looney bin, let them sit next to someone Crocheting (sp?) something that isn’t there for the next 40 years.
The Soviet Union was not Communist, and it (with exception of early stages) violated Communism and Socialism. I suggest that you go to marxists.org and click on “Learning Marxism” to find out what Communism really is.
We Communists are not bad people, and we oppose the Stalinist policies of USSR, Cuba, China, etc.
Also, it is a lie to state that Communism is impossible. As Alan Woods and Ted Grant stated, if Marxism is so impossible, then why does the Bourgeoisie even bother to mention it? The Bourgeoisie also do not even talk about other things that are impossible, such as Anarchism, God-building, etc., so why do they continue to slander Marxism, and write it off as impossible? It is simple: Communism poses a threat to the Bourgeoisie, and if it is not slandered, then the people will beleive in it. Socialism is the unconscious will of the people.
As for Socialism and Communism, they both go together, and they are not excluded from each other. Socialism is a temporary transitory stage when the Proletarian Dictatorship (a workers’ democracy, not Authoritarian crap) owns the means of production and squashes Bourgeoisie resistance. When the class distinctions disappear, then Socialism withers away, and the communal ownership of the means of production, in which there is NO government, i.e. Communism, emerges.
It is very hard do decide what is the good or best system of governemnt. there advantages and disadvantages. at least in capitalist, you have a oppurtunity to on top as long as you work hard. there are lots of oppurtunities just do your best shoot.
Im sure everyone would be quite willing to believe in Communism, if only Communists would supply us with the reasonings that suppose that it is true. U seem to be relying on some kind of belief as far as i can tell, since there is no real argument. Is it a priori, or empirical?
Also, if it is enevitable, why should we bother to believe in it? In a similar way, if we were living in the middle ages and knew that a bourgeoisie society would come about; what would be gained by trying to advance it, given that it would not necessarily make it come about sooner?
communism is an ideal that can never be achieved. the system breaks down and fails, nearly always becoming a dictatorship. the only countries that have communism are old allies of russia (USSR) and the countries in eastern europe which they took over, as well as some of asia. And look where communism got russia. they only prospered under the leadership of stalin who became a dictator. What started as an ideal government under Lenon ended in a dictatorship under stalin. If socialism worked it would be great. The best thing that works now is capitalism. Maybe one day we may achieve a government based on socialism/capitalism.
You clearly don’t know what Communism is. In fact, Communism has never existed before. You should at least read some Marxist works to get a basic understanding of what Communism is. I am not trying to preach to you to follow it, but you should at least know what something is before you debate about it.
agreed, and I don’t think it ever will. I would argue that Communism simply cannot exist on the national scale. Honestly, it seems that Communism needs a strong belief in some sort of “i support my fellow-man” ideology to survive. The most workable ideologies that I have found in that direction are religious (i have serious questions as to whether man - as a whole, i am sure there are individual who break the mold - is capable of devoting a large portion of life to his fellow man without some sort of religious idealogy - or semi-religious, which is basically what most attempts at communism have seemed to try to produce…religions with State and Party as Gods). If you really want to see a well-working commune, check out a monastery.
