Conceptual Symbionts, memes and football

I hate the word ‘memes’ - it kicks up all sorts of images and associations with organicity that it shouldn’t, so I came up with something better/less confusing/other. Ta-Da:

Conceptual symbionts.

My new and exciting bit of jargon. These little beasties are classified (a) by having no direct physical components, (b) by being a collection of ideas, or closer to the mark by being a sequence of ideas which both lead to and re-inforce eachother, and finally (c) once adopted, become indespensible on a global scale, at least for a period of time.

It must also be noticed that the initial idea in the sequence is one that is already implicit within whatever system it arises from.

I’ve searched around for a good illustration and come up with football. Not, alas, the American kind, because I don’t know enough about it and lack the will to bother aquiring such knowledge, but the British kind. “Soccer”. Blasphemy. :laughing:

Back in the old days football was played very differently. Okay, so there was still the goalie, and 10 other guys dressed in shorts, and a ball, but the way the game was played. Basically, one guy would get the ball and, avoiding countless tackles by the opposing team, dribble it all the way to within shooting range. Then shoot. GOAL !!! Yay, everyone shout hip-hip-hooray.

Passing was very infrequent, done only under extreme duress, and usually backwards to another player who would attempt once again to get into the penalty box all on his lonesome. Basically, though all the players of any given team were nominally on the same side, they didn’t really play together. “Team” was spelt with eleven "I"s.

I don’t know who ‘invented’ the “passing game”, I’m pretty dumb concerning football history - I blame growing up in a town where the home team was so pathetic no-one except the real anoraks ever supported them - but I think it was the continental teams when leagues started opening up internationally.

Basically three-men cells would run up the pitch and through strategic passing, circumvent any tackles coming their way, get within range and either blast one in directly, or again, lure the goalie into coming out early and pass around him.

They began to win every damn game, flattening the British teams completely. Outrage, this was our damn game…! How dare they, those foreign upstarts, who did they think they were…!

:laughing:

Of course, next season, many of the English teams were playing a passing game, at least the successful teams anyway. The one’s that didn’t, got relegated, and sank out of sight. After a while, the only teams left, were the ones which passed.

And this encapsulates the idea of a conceptual symbiont:

The first idea: “Pass the ball before you absolutely have to.”
leads to: “Have someone ready to recieve it running nearby. Don’t run up alone.”
leads to: “Have that player run in a strict formation, so you will always already know roughly where to pass the ball, whenever pasing becomes necessary.”
leads to, “Have two players in formation, in case one avenue of passing becomes obstructed.”

Each idea leads from, supporting and extending, the former.

Then of course, the ideas begin to gloabally expand their effects, because they allow for specialisation. Whereas before each player had to be: A good runner, a good dribbler, a good tackler, a good striker - now with a three man group you could have one great striker, and two (or more) great dribblers to support him - laying the ball off to him after they had brought it to within range.

Midfielders to pick up loose balls, and double as striker-support, defenders to put down attacks - multiple, clearly defined roles, allowing for mutually supportive specialists.

All stemming from a simple initial idea of “pass the damn ball genius.”

This is what I mean when I say “Conceptual Symbiont.”

Anyway, since we’ve already got the football, we may as well run with it. Just imagine the football has a religious symbol on it.

Team size. In football, a team’s limited to 11, plus a few subs. In life however, you can field as many players as you can get onto the pitch. There’s more to it than that though - it’s no good having more players if no-one knows which side they’re playing for, or in which direction they should be kicking the ball.

The monkeysphere. I know I go on about this a lot, but it is absolutely foundational to any social theory. A.B.S.O. F.U.C.K.I.N.G. L.U.T.E.L.Y.

We’re so blasé about meeting strangers these days. We see a dozen a day, and talk to/interact with a couple of them in the course of work/socializing whatever. We think nothing of it.

The only real predator of man left on the planet is man. So why aren’t we scared of these everyday strangers…? I mean, imagine there was no law, no over-reaching systems of mutual co-operation - everything you owned, you made; everything you ate, you grew or raised; your water, you lugged up from the well yourself, from the river. The house you live in, the clothes you wear - all of them came from your hands. You do not need anything from another. And they, if they exist (you haven’t seen them) shouldn’t really need you for anything either. So why would they approach you…? Simple curiousity…? Imagine there’s a mountain range between you and some guy you’ve only ever heard rumours about anyway, would simple curiousity be enough to get you to cross them…?

The only reasons for utterly self-sufficient groups, living in adequately-resourced areas isolate from each other, with no previous history of interaction, to visit one another, are bad ones.

Let me illustrate the situation:

Welcome to blob-land. I want you to imagine a bunch of blobs. They have two states: Sedentary and passive, mobile and aggresive. During their lifetimes, these blobs grow slowly, absorbing nutrients from the area where they lay until one of two things happens:

*Their size goes over a certain value, let’s say around 250-300 units.
*They exhaust the nutrients of their locale.

In the first instance, the bloated mother blob splits, and calves off a new blob which promptly switches into mobile-aggressive mode and disappears over the horizon. This new blob doesn’t stop until it finds somewhere with enough nutrients to support its growth, where it settles into sedentary mode. If there are no such places left unnoccupied it will attack and either displace another blob, or assimilate it utterly, unless driven off.

In the second case, the whole blob, whatever it’s current size, switches into mobile aggressive mode and goes off on the hunt for somewhere new to live.

I think this, barring a little inter-group female raiding/exchange, adequately describes the general state of primitive mankind.

[size=85][Remember Game-theory 101…? Remember the initial winning strategy at low pop. density…? “Always default”. ie, always attack, and always attack first. And remember, “Always default” is also responsible for keeping the pop. density low, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.][/size]

Now, we forgot football. Incorporating the above, I want you to imagine that the players in each team are not individuals, but blobs - groups of people about 150-200 - in size. For example - this is a mid-fielder - Hobbes.

He’s quite a big lad, isn’t he…? :smiley:

But how is this Hobbesian game played…? Despite the general 'team’ness, there is no team. A player gets the ball, and is tackled. But the player, and the tackler, are largely on their own. It’s one-on-one. In fact, the whole global game, despite there being 22 players on the pitch, is only ever one-on-one. In any tackle event, the other 20 players might as well not exist. No-one on either side will help their player/tackler because the target is ‘the ball’ and personal glory, not so much the overall outcome of the game - and under these conditions - a far better strategy is to wait until either the ball spins free, or to tackle whoever gets the ball, while they are tired from the recent conflict.

Now let’s chuck one of the Hobbesian teams off the pitch, and install a passing-game playing continental. The players of this team have decided to sacrifice the personal glory of scoring an individual goal, to the more global joint-glory of ‘winning the game’.

Which team wins…? Not a hard calculation. The continentals are playing eleven men against a team of one.

In summary - any conceptual symbiont that increases group cohesion or facillitates trust between unrelated groups - enabling the ‘passing game’ to be played - will tend to spread via proxy of those who believe. And as a species, we may have undergone coevolution with this emergent function - evolving more developed neurophysiologic ‘organs’ of belief, and boosting the ability of these beliefs, once formed, toward expression in the kind of consistant behaviour so crucial to mutual trust.

What is your take on memes and memetics…?

Tab,

There might be a teeny tiny crack in this statement. Self-sufficient is a description of absolute need, but desire/want is another possible “conceptual symbiont” that can overlay the sedentary passive/mobile aggressive perspective.

Example: Two blob groups, close together (within a one day walk) are essentially self-sufficient. One lives on a mountain side where the soil is almost moon dust, but also has rich deposits of jade. The other lives below in the valley with soils rich in clay deposits. The former produces beautiful jade ornaments, the latter produces gorgeous pottery. At some point, both discover that the other blob group has something desirable. Not needed, just wanted. Both groups are strong enough to defend their territories so aggressiveness isn’t going to get it. What then arises is cooperative barter based not on need, but on desire/want. The pattern becomes cooperation until there is an obvious shift in power that favors aggression.

But let’s look at the football game. Suppose that two punters begin working together - maybe they’re brother-in-laws, and one of the other players challenges their cooperation. They will cooperatively work to defeat that individual as long as they can answer; what’s in it for me? Punter 1 will get to share in the BIL’s wine stash, Punter 2 will get laid if he wins. This cooperation may be short-lived as they are still individuals playing king of the hill, but in many instances, cooperation can trump aggressiveness.

I’m not disagreeing with your general explanation, just suggesting that aggression may be a secondary conceptual symbiont or at the very least, just one component of the complexities of human motivation.

Hey JT,

Yeah, maybe I should amend that rather black and white “the only” to “most”. :smiley:

With the football bit though - while sure, related individuals would naturally cooperate - I was replacing individuals with groups of monkeysphere size. Trying to illustrate that without the quantum leap of “mutal win” over “individual win” no group has any motivation to help another.

I think what I’m thinking is that true ‘memes’ become coevolvant foils against which our actual physiology adapts to accomodate or facillitate. Like bees and flowers.

Another example would be of the ‘plastic brain’ over the ‘fixed brain’, which is the case of the ‘jack of all trades vs. specialist’ debate argued in flesh and bone. Do you see what I mean…? I’m not sure it’s a particularly useful POV. though.

Hi Tab,

No argument with this, but on a global scale, it seems to me that cooperation (trade/barter) spread more ideas and goods than all out aggression - not that aggression or threatened aggression wasn’t a constant factor. Even at monkeysphere sized groups, distance often made cooperation the only realistic form of interchange. Until there were sufficient ways of moving large armies long distances, trade was the only option. It was sort of a motive of aggression
defeated by logistics. If you think about it, even mutual win is cooperation and though I might have to accept the notion that I have to share the spoils of victory, it still comes back to the individual: “What’s in it for me?”

I would say that the plastic (adaptable) brain allows us both cooperation and aggression. Which is used at any particular time would depend on a host of considerations. It might be easy to assess the gains, but the risk factor of losing is also in play. If there is anything unique in humans, it is the ability to project and assess possible outcomes of any action taken.

This seems a little thin to me. I understand that the brain is adaptable (wired together fires together), and if that is all you’re suggesting, I can buy that. I’m less sure what other physiological adaptations might be present. Can you clarify?

Stepping back just a little, it is the hard-wired ability for pattern recognition combined with yes or no decision making that makes “memes” possible. “Under these conditions, this works, that doesn’t”.

Oooh, I think I’ve got one:

Behavioral fractalization. [size=50]Don’t bother checking the dictionary[/size]

It’s the adaptive aspect of monkey see monkey do that migrates from an aggressive standpoint to a more rewarding (more returns without getting dead), cooperative one. Introduce common language with some ideologies and you have yourself a ball game.

Maybe, but if my club is an ounce heavier than yours, I’ll go for the simple solution of bashing your head in and taking all your wimmins! Let’s not forget religion where the advantage is sacrificing my life (and as many heathens as possible) to grant me entrance into heaven or paradise. Yeah, I’ll cooperate - until I have you where I want you. :evilfun:

Good point, Tent, I had forgotten about politics. Thanks.

Sandy,

I don’t know if it’s that much about politics (certainly a consideration) as it it about conservation of energy. All organisms find the maximum gain for the smallest amount of energy expended possible. While humans have layers of complexity on top of complexity, we carry that same genetically-driven rule. I guess I’m saying that memes follow genes to a certain extent. It is here that monkey see, monkey do gains it’s validity. We do in a group what makes sense to the individual. The individual can support the group tendency to pick the shortest, least energy consuming actions without even being conscious that the choice made was set in stone a few million years earlier. Can I prove that? Hell no. But I’m sticking with it.

Cop out.

OK. Seperate memes from genes in any meaningful way. Go ahead. I dare you. Memes have about as much proof as what I offered. Neither has much more substance than wet toilet paper. I just like mine better. :mrgreen:

Nice try.

I only call it as I see it.

cop out.

Fast learner.

I feel a meme (or that symbiont thing) coming on.

Careful! Some memes have sharp pointy teeth. :wink:

Why do you think we have dental floss?

Trade?

mumbo works with jumbo, despite the independent claim of dumbo.

A stand off! :laughing: I’ll wait for Tab to chime in, then pick sides. After all, I want to be on the winning team… :wink:

…or so you think.