Conflicting Definitions: THE TRUTH on Conditional Statements

Let me try to explain what material implication is. There are three basic kinds of implication that we use. There is a causative implication, when we mean that the antecedent causes the consequent. There is logical implication, which denotes class relation, such as the Socrates syllogism, and there is definitional implication, such as “if a polygon has only three sides, it’s a triangle.” Material implication is none of these by themselves - it extracts the common partial meaning of each. Like each of these three types of implications, however, it is a truth-functional relation. It just has no use when we cannot assign truth functions. But it is extremely useful when we can.

But notice that those three basic types of implications, which are accounted for by MI, do require a connection of some type between antecedent and consequent - by definition. Therefore, some connection is part of their common partial meaning, and is therefore also included in MI.

Now, most of the time, when we are using implications, we are probably using causal implications, which are never used in mathematics. For this reason MI is perfectly useful in mathematics, and no mention of a logical or definitional connection need be made, because this relation is already built into mathematical terms. I don’t know about your third citation, but it seems clear that in the first two, given that they are mathematical treatments, the definitions they use are probably adequate. You could clear this up with quotes.

But let’s consider one type of conditional that poses a problem similar to the one you state. Let’s say that the Green Bay Packers have already clinched their division (which they probably have, I haven’t checked). And I say, “If the Packers win their next game, then they will win their division”. And they win their next game. Both simple statements are true, and the implication is formally true within the definition of MI, but there is no logical, definitional nor causative connection between them. Is this really an implication? Both parts can be verified, can have a truth value assigned (at least after the next game). In ordinary language, this takes the form of an implication, but it is not an implication. No one would take it as such, if they knew the facts involved. Any more than they would consider “If I eat chicken tonight, then the Packers clinch the division”. Yet it still follows the rules of MI.

This is so because MI is an abstraction created to account for implications with different meanings. MI does not capture the actual and full meaning of any given statement. It can, then, result in what may strike us as silly implications. But that’s the price of the simplicity and clarity that MI provides when we do make actual implications that have meaning in the first place. And the reason is this - MI is a rule to used to show the validity of an argument, and not to ascertain the truth of its component parts. MI is not a truth-generator, but a validity-generator. It shows only valid argument form, and not truth.

So why do we assign truth values to the component parts of a conditional? Well, we don’t, always. When we cannot, modal logic seeks to fill the gap. MI is used when we can assign truth values. But modal logic can be used in these circumstances as well. In the case of the Packers, the conditional may actually be “modal”, if we do not know all the facts about the playoff picture in the NFL this season. Modal logic just has a different use, and that difference may depend on the person using the facts, and not just the facts themselves. This is an oversimplification , in that modal logic would need some slightly different expressions, but my point is that MI’s sometimes silly consequences is not due to MI itself, but to its use at times.

Faust, you’re changing the topic. I say once again:

So you believe all high school geometry books have it wrong about conditional statements? They’re just filling us up with nonsense. Every conditional statement found in them is just nonsense. Is that what you mean?

No, I that is not what I mean. I do not understand how your question follows from the statement that you responded to with it. Perhaps you could clarify. I should tell you that i am not interested in mere rhetoric. If there is a point attached to your question, please make it.

You said you think the phrase “every possible world” is nonsense. So you think modal logic is nonsense. Considering that my thesis is that the conditional statement is a modal claim, one that is only confirmed in the typical high school geometry class, you are ridiculous! Your beliefs undermine the very conditional statement! They are contrary to what many learn as high school freshman!

Modal logic is not wholly dependent upon possible worlds, so you have drawn a false inference.

Your thesis is incorrect. Show me how this is confirmed in geometry class.

I learned several things in my freshman year that i now view as wrong. Again, if you want to have a conversation, I’m game, but I am not interested in empty rhetoric. Calm down.

No, I have’nt! It doesn’t need to be wholly dependent upon possible worlds! The fact is you don’t believe in the material that constitutes modal logic. That’s equivalent to not believing in modal logic!

The conditionals taught in geometry class are ones in which the conclusion is true EVERY TIME the hypothesis is true!

Usually what is taught in freshman year is true. This strongly suggests that the material taught on conditional statements is true. It’s strong evidence that supports my side of the argument.

If you believe my thesis is incorrect because you don’t believe in modal logic (or at very least, necessity), then you almost definitely are not going to convince me. I firmly believe in modal logic, as do many very prominent and respected philosophers.

Still fighting with ghosts, huh Fausty.

Put two dots on a paper, draw a “straight” line between them…voila…REALITY!

Satyr - it passes the time.

Browser -

Nyet. I do not even understand what it means to “believe” in modal logic. Except that i do understand . As classical logic leads to better physics, so does modal logic lead to more (if not better) metaphysics. But modal logic has uses that do not include possible worlds. Look it up.

I think you’re confused. To say that a conditional makes the claim that every time the antecedent is true, the consequent is true, is to say that the antecedent implies the consequent, which is just that 'connection" that i have spoken of. This is not an epistemic claim, it’s the meaning of implication.

I do not care what you believe, but my purpose here is to examine arguments - again, not the beliefs they support. What i would like to see from you is an argument. I am not hopeful, as i do not believe that you understand the terms you are using.

Edited by Faust - from the posting guidelines - “throw away comments, direct insults and verbal horseplay will be removed and may be subject to board warnings.”

Faust - Since you believe the phrase “every possible world” is nonsense, we aren’t going to agree.

The best I could do, for your sake, is ask you: Why do you think that way?

Ah, browser, so you have abandoned the debate. Very well.

I think that all metaphysics is, in the end, nonsense. That’s because I have never seen an argument for a metaphysical position that makes sense. Usually, metaphysical arguments are the result of a misunderstanding of language, similar perhaps to the misunderstanding you demonstrate here.

Pretty simple, really.

It is not abandoning the debate. If all this “every possible world” stuff really is nonsense, then that would have a bearing on my thesis. I just wanted to know what you had to say about this.

I, for one, do not share your view. I thus don’t see us coming to an agreement on my thesis any time in the near future.

But thank you for your contribution. :slight_smile:

Right, then.