Consciousness after death?

I agree. After you die (death), others will continue to live (life).

How about the people who die instantaneous deaths? Is that still enough time to have that last “dream” before their death?

The idea could be that consciousness is analogous to a radio wave. The brain is analogous to a radio receiver that picks up the wave. So at death, the receiver stops receiving the wave, but the wave is still out there, as is a radio wave even when a broken radio can’t pick it up. If a new body is formed that is attuned to the right frequency to pick up a particular consciousness, then that would be like re-birth, reincarnation or resurrection. In this scenario, consciousness is there without a body but requires a body to manifest itself.

That’s the potential next step I’m contemplating for my son, whom, when the cat died, I assured in terms of her “brain energy” being projected into the universe. But in anticipation of his inquisitiveness, and in view of grandparents’ potentially imminent mortality, I have a couple of questions:

  1. Is consciousness-after-death so conceived conscious only of memories, or would there be a means for active/direct experience?

It would seem that a continuance of the point of broadcast would be necessary in order for there to be anything new projected. Hence, the death of the brain (if this is the broadcaster) would not allow for any further “live” programming. Alternatively, if the living brain is only a receiver, then by what account do on-the-ground living experiences become transformed into radiowaves? If it’s a transceiver, who’s/what’s manning the mike?

  1. Is there a question of the signal dissipating beyond receivability? Or being received by multiple receivers?

  2. In the event an appropriately tuned new body receives the signal, would identity be retained as well, or simply pre-recorded content?

…I assure you I’m quite serious here. One of the big drags of being an atheisticish parent is that there are no simple answers available to tell the kids … or at least not many that would go down well with their mates on the playground… alas, the ongoing social necessity of noble lies…

p.s. I recall a great discussion on this between David Bohm and Bill Moyers (I think Krishnamurti might have been in on it, too). I’ll try and see if it’s been Youtubed…

It seems to me that there is as yet no proof that waves are involved in any process in the brain. I’m still not sure how they remain coherent or even if they do for any length of time, perhaps Hammond could provide us with a paper showing that these signals occur, and for a duration long enough to affect the brain? That would be the first stage, then one could go about finding out if producing these signals effects the neurobiology of the brain in some way, then if that is proven one could proceed to make an experiment where conscious process is affected, then one could proceed to see if these effects still happen in tissue that has had its blood supply removed. Then and only then would you be in any scientific position as regards near death. If not then your as guilty as indulging in speculation as the woo crowd. Possible is a long way away from a coherent scientific theory.

That aside we commonly dream only for a few minutes but in fact they can seem to last for hours or even days. It seems to me you’d have more luck appealing to that fact (ie that time perception - but not actual time - can be altered during a dream like state) than the idea that near death there is some form of wave function processing in some way no one is able to explain. Certainly special relativity is irrelevant in all but the most extraordinary circumstances. I’m pretty sure dream duration is widely accepted by science where as quantum consciousness is still fringe.

Do you realize how preposterous that sounds? It’s almost like you’re using this argument to explain why a chicken continues to run around after its head is chopped off.

In your analogy, it appears as if the waves are the signals sent from nerve endings, ear drums, smell sensors, etc to the brain. True that after the brain ceases to function, the signals wouldn’t be detected. But if the body is no longer functioning, the signals would no longer be sent.

Truth is Mutcer, we don’t know what Consciousness really is.
It’s a property of humans, but it’s not a thing.

It’s like the color red.
You can’t hold red in your hand; it requires a thing for that red to be on as red is a frequency of light in our visual spectrum and that is all.

For all we know, consciousness is merely a frequency of sorts that exists and is visible to us when applied to a thing, us.

And just like red, it is possible that the frequency could continue to exist as an existence of the frequency even once the thing it was applied to is gone; as it is a frequency in light, and not only anchored to that object.

So…shrug…who’s to say it’s not possible for something like this to occur with consciousness?

I’m not saying that it is that way, but with the concept of properties; it is possible that one property of consciousness is transferable to another object elsewhere, but how that would occur and how that would look and if it would be exactly the same…who the hell knows.

More or less…like I said, we don’t know what consciousness is and if it can only survive in humans and only in humans that are alive.

I suppose this is why we’re so fascinated with the mentally disabled in regards to the neurological classification of consciousness; are they self-aware?
If not…why?
If not…does this mean they don’t have a “soul”?
etc…

The jury is still rather out on all of this.

I don’t know make something up, after all its all speculation any way. He’s a kid how much does he know about quantum mechanics? :slight_smile:

Lets face it these microwave signals Hammond is talking about would have enough trouble remaining coherent over micrometers let alone traversing any real distance, they are not great at penetrating the atmosphere let alone solid material which is the reason they are good at heating food. Also were not talking about much energy here or many photons and its hard to see how these signals wouldn’t be swamped by the more powerful signals caused by the synapses in our brain, even these are certainly nothing like the power found in a microwave, or a radio transmitter; our head is not like a radio antenna in that it throws off strong radio signals (which incidentally aren’t as affected by solid materials).

I wonder if the tiny residual energy that comes from our noggin remotely resembles the energy it started off as at a quantum level, and in fact I’d suggest it has been subject to so many interactions even as it passes through our skull that it is not much like the original signal.

The nearest analogy I can think of transfer of discernible information (at least something as complex as a language) is in a quantum computer and these chips operate at temperatures way below zero, at temperatures above 0 they would be likely to decohere rapidly losing much of the message. Thoughts would no doubt be even more complicated signals than mere language, combining all the senses in an experience. I’d be interested in that link though even if I find the whole idea somewhat speculative to say the least.

:laughing:

Tell him the brain gives off waves like a radio and they can be picked up likewise and can be converted to mpeg audio only formats. :smiley:

…first I’ll tell him he’ll have to earn his broadcaster’s license, though. I wonder what the test should be… :-k

[Hammond]
Not so. No such conclusion can be drawn.

For instance, according to the Twins Paradox one twin could take off on a long spaceflight and be gone for 150 years.
Meanwhile the other twin back on earth obviously would die of old age. But then the rocketship would return and land at
the airport and the traveling twin would be observed to land the spaceship and walke down the ladder and only
be a mere 35 years old.

Obviously the observers at the airport would be astonished and claim that this must be an example of life after death.

And guess what, they’re pretty nearly correct! Because as I have shown the Twins Paradox phenomena is at the core
of the explanation of life after death.

What I am saying is simply this: That the bedside observers see the person die in a matter of seconds, but UNKNOWN
to them is the fact that in those few seconds the dearly departed has actually fully experienced a five-year afterlife
in another paradisical world, called “Heaven”.

And this is just exactly the impression that the returning astronaut who has only been gone a few years would have when
he stepped off the gangway at the airport and found out that his brother had already lived 40 years longer than himself!

So what I’m telling you, is that the phenomenon of life after death, if it exists, must be a RELATIVISTIC phenomenon.
And the twins paradox is the experimental evidence and rock-solid PROOF of that.

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Hammond…you are just stretching.

By all conditions of the hospital, a man is dead after he has that vision, not before it.

What happens in his mind is irrelevant to the time-line the hospital uses.

[Hammond]
Don’t bank on it.

[Hammond]
Not so. Because, because the “dead” person’s consciousness is no longer in the hospital’s “frame of reference”
(i.e. reality), he is in another relativistic frame of reference" where he is still alive- exactly the same as the twins Paradox.

This is PROVEN by the Twins Paradox. After 200 years has passed the astronought twin is delared
“legally dead” because it is IMPOSSIBLE to live 200 years. And yet, the day after he is declared legally dead the
spaceship returns and he is found to be alive and well and only 35 years old! This demonstrates that the two twins
are in TWO DIFFERENT SPACE-TIMES during their lives… the same goes for the dying person’s consciousness
before and after death… it is in 2 different space-times before death and after death as seen by the Hospital.
Unknown to the hospital, but known to Religion, he actually moved to another space-time a split second before he
died in the hospital’s space-time!
Sheesh…

SAME DIFFERENCE applies to the Christian theory of Life After Death! Only in that case
the spaceship never returns… but we know for a fact that he is “still alive in Heaven” for a number
of years obtaining the Beatific Vision. The Bible already tells us that, and now Science (e.g. Hammond) is explaining it .

[Hammond]
That’s like saying it is irrelevant what is happening on the rocket ship because a court of law on Earth has
declared him legally dead. Thats nonsense, just because the Hospital declares him legally dead, it is
scientifically possible for him to be QUITE ALIVE in Heaven!

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[Hammond]
Na…that’s just more incredulous scientific bungling on your part. For one thing the time-dilation we are talking about
is a gravitational time-tilation, not a velocity time-dilation. I.e., General Relativity not Special Relativity.
there are no “velocitieas” involved, I just couched it in SR because most non-scientists don’t even know the difference
between SR and GR.

But hey, you don’t even have to know Relativity to understand this. Suppose you made a digital video of real life on Earth,
and then suppose you could also “digitize the mental/sensory reaction” of a human being to that world scene and add that
into the video also.

So, when you played it back the person would be a “live emulation” of a human being in a live emulation
of a world reality. And the point is, it makes NO DIFFERENCE what speed you actually run the movie
at… the “emulated person” in the movie is going to see the world in “real time” no matter HOW FAST
you runt the movie reel!

Now that’s an explanation just in terms of “down loading movies” without even mentioning Relativity,
but it turns out that the actual process actually involves (is in fact) an enormous gravitational time dilation
(quantum brain gravity according to Sir Roger Penrose).

Hey; there are some serious dudes looking at life after death these days, and I’m one of them… maybe the only one?

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My point Hammond, is that I don’t care about the dying guy’s frame of time reference.
You go on and care about that, but according my reference of time, he’s still alive when he has that dream.

It’s not an argument, just an analogy for a spiritual way of looking at your issue. In the analogy the “radio waves” are not sent by nerve endings. The waves are received by what is commonly called a sixth sense, ESP, or intuition. The Spirit or Mind is everywhere. The brain processes the signal. When the body is no longer function, the spiritual signal are still there just like radio waves are there, but the dead body cannot receive them just like the broken radio cannot receive the radio waves.

[Hammond]
You can believe anything you want, it’s a free country. However that doesn’t make it correct.
Fact is your belief is only supportaqble as long as you ignore scientific fact. And that fact is that
that the “death dream” in question can only be “experienced” by the dying person in his
proper time”, not the hospital’s "proper time". In the hospital’s proper time the
dream takes a microsecond. But in the dying person’s proper time the dream takes 5 years.
Therefore, unbeknowst to the hospital employees, the guy actually lives on for 5 years AFTER the
officially recorded “hospital time” that he died, even though the hospital has no way of detecting it. Not yet anyway!

That’s a physicist explaining it to you scientifically and if you go to a church they will
explain exactly the same thing to you “theologically”. So like I say, you can believe anything you want,
but the rigorous science shows that my thesis is tenable, possible, and even plausible despite your
unsupported opinion.!

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George you’re reaching and you know it. The gravitation on the Earth is fairly uniformly 1g, thus the time dilation concerns are negligible. I do know about time dilation in general relativity that’s why I said the gravity on Earth and the relative speeds are almost the same. Couching it in anything doesn’t change the mathematics of the situation, if differences in gravity cause the effect then when they are the same there is no time dilation effect.

Consciousness is limited to science.
Consciousness is the ability to react and to think.
Consciousness does not come to an end immediately after doctors certified your death.
It lasts for one day or more after it.

Live and Death, so simple. People imagine because they afraid. I have it, so I admit it.

Teru Wong

[Hammond]: Unsupported assertion, dogma.

[Hammond]: Unsupported assertion, dogma.

[Hammond]: Unsupported assertion, dogma.

[Hammond]: Unsupported assertion, dogma.

You will have to post factual material supported by scientific evidence if you want to
obtain anyone’s attention on this thread. Otherwise you’re merely posting unsupported
personal dogma and tautology of no interest to anyone.

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==================================.

Christians aren’t materialists, and thus, don’t believe it requires a physical brain to have consciousness. For example, Christians don’t believe God has a physical brain, but they certainly attribute consciousness to God.
Yes, given materialism, Christianity is false. Given the existence of God, materialism is false. You are missing something.