Could nature really have got it so wrong?

Part 1.

Andre Comte-Sponville is professor of philosophy at the Sorbonne and the author of 5 scholarly works on classical philosophy — we cannot surely doubt that this man knows his stuff, then! So when one reads his Little Book of Philosophy one can feel assured that one is getting the real story from one of the best minds in the business, if not the world as a whole, for surely the business of philosophy is thinking and so if there are any people in the world who KNOW about thinking and are expert at it, it has to be philosophers.

He starts the book in the usual way by asking, and answering the question: what is philosophy? — and in the process, again as usual, finds it is the highest achievement of humanity — I won’t deal with the introduction, though there is much to deal with, but will go straight to the first chapter: Ethics.

Ethics is defined as rules derived from reason that a person imposes upon himself for the good of humanity. These rules are nothing to do with the law, or with the fear of censure but are purely the product of reason.

For example, one might reason that if everyone in the world allowed themselves to tell lies all the time, then society would collapse and any sort of decent life would be impossible. Thus one might conclude that it is immoral to tell lies. A similar process might be applied to acts such as stealing and murder etc so that these, too, might be classed as immoral.

The rule of reason is, of course, fundamental to all of philosophy. But in the case of ethics, reason must over-ride instinct, intuition, personal desire etc. This supposes that people are basically evil, or at least, have a natural desire to do wrong: if we did not have desires and instincts that would have us doing wrong, then there would be no need of ethics at all.

It also supposes that if there is a conflict between what a person feels instinctively compelled to do and what reason tells him is ‘morally’ correct, then it is what reason tells him to do that is right. That is to say that reason can deduce what is good for humanity better than instinct, intuition etc.

The natural world uses instinct and desire and intuition and operates so successfully that it has turned a barren rock, the early Earth, into a place that teems with life in ever richer variety and abundance. The success of nature in creating all the wealth of living things that covers the Earth is spectacular and incontestable — or so you would think, yet philosophers disagree. They are saying that THEY know better than nature and that without the rules worked out by reason, humanity could not survive???

Consider a practical example: where nature has produced a bird, reason (natural philosophy = physics) has come up with an aeroplane. As far as the art of flying goes, nature’s flying machines are incomparably better than man’s.

OK, so man has produced some juggernauts of the air, but nature has seen flying as a personal matter and has not seen fit to produce creatures whose sole purpose is to transport other creatures around the world — in other words, if man has produced a few things that nature has not, then it is not because nature CANNOT, but because it just HAS not, and if it did ‘chose’ to evolve massive flyers, or space faring creatures, then all the evidence says that it would make an incomparably better job of it than humanity.

But there are other ways in which the natural creature is way better than the human imitation: birds look after themselves and they reproduce themselves and they will change and adapt and evolve without any effort on anybody’s part. Planes are VERY HIGH MAINTENANCE, and they require huge amounts of time, effort, and fuel and they have short lives and when they have to go onto the rubbish heap a replacement has to be built, and if any improvements or changes are to be made then huge numbers of people have to spend huge amounts of time and effort in ‘thinking’ up the ideas etc.

To return to ethics: if we behave naturally, ie if we allow ourselves to be ruled by instinct, intuition and desire, then decisions are effortless and we do not have to be thinking and questioning ourselves and our behaviour all the time. On the other hand, if we decide that our ‘nature’ should be over-ruled by our reason, then we must put a great deal of effort and time into thinking, and into remembering what we have decided, and into updating those decisions in the light of new ideas; in other words, we are replacing an effortless, maintenance free system which constantly updates and renews itself with a very effortful, high maintenance one that resides in books which become precious because they do not renew themselves but just decay and can be lost with the loss of all the huge construct that is humanity’s ethical systems……………………

……………nature’s way is OBVIOUSLY by far and away the more practical one, and it may be that the very impracticability of human ethics makes the system unfeasible right from the start.

Natural for humans is extremely violent in terms of ethics

What is reasonably violent to you Kris?

What is acceptable violence to you?

what is his bias

There’s some belief’s and assumptions in the premise here that fall short of making this conclusion solid.

  1. Ethics works to determine the right actions to do what is good for society. It has no bearing though when what is good for society is disagreed upon. The thing is, values are and always will be the core of ethics and morality and the motivation for determining what is right or wrong. The OP assumes that doing less is good. I suppose it is if you value doing less. But then again, how do you know doing less actually leads to doing less? Perhaps without technological innovation we would have less free time: i.e., shorter life spans, more time spent trying to survive, etc. But since when is not putting forth effort, good, or right?

  2. How far does instinct intuition and desire really take us? Isn’t desire how we have advance aerospace to begin with? The point in the OP that if we behave naturally instead of thinking and questioning ourselves then we will have some maintenance free system. But how isn’t how we create and reason and deduct our natural way? If it is, and we still eliminate our thinking process and react more reptilian, as I see it, then how does that even guarantee a maintenance free system? There’s always maintenance but it may be simpler or not. How does providing one example of comparing a flying bird to say, a space ship, indicative of all of this manner of evolution vs human creation? Plus the OP assumes that nature can do it better, it just hasn’t. How is that known? Life can be evolved to fly to mars? Really? We know this how? This basically seems like a technology haters deterrent to stop using reasoning and complex thinking, based on poor reasoning.

I am a mother, figure it out.

Only a female decides what is appropriate violence.

I figured it out.

It must be why females are so dominant, in every field.

I imagine a world with no laws, no police, no political-correctness, and there is Kriswest, on top of the heap.
I look at science, philosophy, innovation, the arts, and there are all the females, “directing things”.
=D>

God bless you Kris, you are a joy.

But let’s be serious, the only power females have is sex. Males obsessed with sex, or pussy-whipped, are putty in a females’ hands.

Eliminate the rules which inhibit natural male dominance, and you have women thinking they are top-dogs.
Take it away, and there they are looking for a big man to protect them from the big bad world.

Nature didn’t get anything wrong, humans intervene making men, and some women, think that the world was always like this.

What rules inhibit natural male dominance? The laws of physics? Biology?

I think he’s talking about the civil rights movement or something.

Well that resolved any question in my my mind. Sabina is not a female. Not even remotely going to ever be a mother. That post had zero understanding of maternity. Hello Satyr and Sattie likes kris, Sattie likes kris, neeener neener…

The laws against violence, exploitation, manipulation control.
The laws that protect the weak, particularly from themselves.

In nature there are no such laws.
A woman seeks protection under a male’s dominance.
This male is now the institution.
Women, and effete males, surrender to it. The rest must pretend, under its protective gaze.

In this culture only words are permitted and those are now being strictly controlled.
The only way a male can respond is using feminine methods.

Outside of sex, a female has zero power.
This is why she always returns the subject to sex.

Brilliant deduction there.
Like Amazons and spartan and celtic mothers have never been known for their violence?

If one appreciates the value of violence, one is automatically male?

Keep at it.

Oh Sattie, you just don’t get it. If Sabina was a true female per your ideals, the answer would have been vastly different. Had she answered per normal female instincts, her answer would have been different. This so called female is no true female. It is a puppet. So Sattie you fail again. You suck as a female.

I think you are going very crazy. If you see satyr in me so much, you should just hang out in his forum and have a chat with him. No, trust me, I am very much a female. A woman who understands the nature of violence is that unbelievable? You think matriarchy was all about pacifism? Never heard of Pentheus and his fate at his mother’s hands??
Do I have to quote all literature for you?
Being a “Mother” and working with animals should have honed your instincts sharper; but it hasn’t and that baffles me.
Maybe you are just a wannabe mother.

It’s as if man, MEN, invented violence, what they call “exploitation”, and any words that make women like Kris cringe in fear.
It’s as if men conjured up the sexes and sex, and then invented their physical and mental/psychological characteristics.
The biology of females and males is a given - it has been determined by thousands of years of natural selection and the demands of heterosexual reproductive methods.
To understand this past doesn’t make me wierd, just a normal pagan woman.

Do you consider your husband evil?

“Another complex version of Aphrodite was a warrior. The archaic temple of the Armed Aphrodite who was called “Morpho” drew attention to her double nature: it was the only two-storey temple known to Pausanias. It housed a statue of the goddess veiled, with chains on her feet. Pausanias explains that Tyndareus had put chains on the statue to demonstrate that wives were faithful to their husbands. Lactantius’ interpretation of the origin of the Armed Aphrodite, in contrast, is based on a view of Spartan women as more feisty. When the Spartan army was away during one of the wars against the Messenians, some of the Messenians invaded Sparta. The women donned armor and managed to defeat the invaders.” (Pomeroy, Spartan Women)

:wink:

Satyr - if you’re going to pretend to be a lady, at least be consistent in not using an IP address that you’ve used for other self-confessed sockpuppets. You seem to have slipped up a couple of times recently.

Also, you’re banned; that includes sockpuppets.

Humean, “consistency” is for those who want to hide. And if I wanted to hide, like you said, I would have used a different iD. I walked in here knowing full well my iD would be transparent to the mods. and would be discovered; no big deal. But the point to take up this personna was to examine how far people could manage to focus on content, and not get involved in personality cults… just focus on content alone. Only the usual suspects trolling on emotional hatred couldn’t do it - kriswest, smears, tentative, blurry.
Satyr was accused for his flagrant “personality” the last time, and I was sportive enough to keep that away and engage in a “civil” manner in ideas alone, that others except the above-mentioned were glad to engage me with.

And a word to Kris, who believes the existence and reality of a female sexist is as unreal as a unicorn; then she should have a word with Lyssa on my forum.
Women with sexist views do Exist despite how much Kris wants to wish away such realities so unpleasant and unpalatable to her.

Philosophy should and should only be about the exchange of Ideas.
You stifle growth and freedom of thinking and expressing and condone a soft-violence when someone able to carry on rational discussions is banned owing to some past avatar, irrelevant to the present.
I ask every member here to think on how justified these ideas of perpetual punishment are, ‘once a criminal, always a criminal’ kind of hypo-critical attitude for a board that prides itself to be so open-minded.

Will this post go through?

Sorry I know this is in poor taste, forgive me but, ROTFLMFAO!!.
For a mother it is simple about acceptable … whatever it takes to defend, protect and avenge any harm done to children / family, within limits or not. Yea, of course you have to let the government do it if they get them. Breaking the law will harm the family. Restraint is at times required. Simple momma ethics.

Well, if I didn’t want to be deluged in a load of slurry, I shouldn’t have posted something intelligent and insightful on a philosophy forum. The only reason for reason is reason. You’re all eating your own tails. You’re putting the Worm Ouroborous to shame. Break out of the loop and go and get some experience and some common sesne and some understanding and then, maybe you’ll have some chance of answering some of those questions about life, the universe and everything. Actually, one of the first things you’ll discover is that the BIG questions about life, the universe and everything which philosophers make so much of, are of the least importance, in fact, of no importance at all. They only like BIG questions because they impress each other with them ---- Biggus Dickus and all that, Ozymandias too — look on my works ye Mighty and despair. “If it ain’t Dutch, it ain’t much.” where for Dutch, read “give you an erection”. Do I make myself clear? I rather suspect I do. Let that be an example to you. When did you last read a philosopher that was better than “clear as mud”.

The post went through (apologies for the delay, I’ve been away). The account is banned.

For one opposed to consistency, Satyr is one of the most consistent posters we’ve had. There are very few permabans, it’s restricted to spammers and those posters who so consistently and unstoppably go against the spirit of the forum that they are judged to be not worth the time or effort of further parole. Spamming KTS was another sign.

To be clear: Satyr’s ideas are not too frightening or shocking or obscene to countenance on this forum. They’re fairly workaday. His inability to discuss without trolling, snide remarks and innuendo, on the other hand, is.