Daily Daodejing, Part 1

For information of what this thread is about, see the parent thread

The Dao that can be described in language is not the constant Dao; the name that can be given is not its constant name

The Dao that can be rendered in language and the name [ming] that can be given it point to a thing/matter [shi] or reproduct a form [xing], neither of which is it in its constancy [chang]. This is why it can neither be rendered in language nor given a name

Right away, this establishes the processal nature of Daoism. It is, quite possibly, the earliest case of a warning against the fallacy of misplaced concreteness. Wang Bi, venerable though he might be, missed the boat on that one and plowed right into that very fallacy by postulating a constant aspect of the Dao. However, he was not entirely wrong in this. Simply because something is in a constant state of flux does not mean that it lacks a pattern or principle [li*]. Simply because it is ever-changing, that does not mean that it is ever-new.

Nameless, it is the origin of the myriad things; named, it is the mother of the myriad things.

Anything that exists originates in nothingness [wu], thus, before it has forms and when it is still nameless, it serves as the origin of the myriad things, and, once it has forms and is named, it grows them, rears them, ensures them their proper shapes, and matures them as their mother. In other words, the Dao, by being itself formless and nameless, originates and brings the myriad things to completion. They are originated and compleded in this way, yet do not know how it happens. This is the mystery [xuan] beyond mystery.

I actually more-or-less agree with Wang Bi here, though I will add my own New Confucian bias to the mix. I think that before being named, the Dao exists as a context/principle [li*] which allows for the rise of concepts/things [qi]. I admit that this rendering relies heavily on the veracity of yin/yang theory whereby each aspect can be further divided into yin and yang in an infinite regress. But I think that such a system elegantly describes the Dao, whereby it is both concrete (qi) and fluid (li*), allowing for both the actuality of a concept and the inexactness of context. This is why ‘Dao’ is routinely called ‘ineffable’ because it seemingly manages to play two roles, not in a context dependent manner, but at once. To that, I would mention Wang Fuzhi, whose cosmology demands not only that a sharp distinction exist between the collection of data and the integration of that data into a system, but also recognizes that through the act of integration there is also an act of interpretation and that the human individual serves as the locus around which that interpretation centers itself.
Given that, the ‘mystery’ is only such when one limits their thinking to mere yin or mere yang as opposed to yin/yang and that the ‘mystery beyond mystery’ is only such when one tries to view yin and yang devoid of a larger context.

Therefore, always be without desire so as to see their subtlety.

Subtlety [miao] is the absolute degree of minuteness. As the myriad things reach completion only after originating in minuteness, so they are born only after originating in nothingness. Thus, always be without desire and remain empty, so that you can see the subtlety with which things originate

“Thus let there always be nothingness, so we may see their subtleties; let there always be existence, so we may see their ends.” That is the traditional punctuation to that line of text since the Song dynasty (960-1279 CE). Personally, I think that the punctuation more-or-less sums up the point trying to be made with this passage and the (counter-intuitive) next passage. We have to recognize our own perspective (a la Wang Fuzhi) as well as the dual role played by the Dao(s).

And always have desire so as to see their ends.

End [Jiao – usually ‘frontier’ or ‘boarder’] here means that the ends to which things revert. If anything that exists is to be of benefit [li], it must function out of nothing. Only when desire is rooted in such a way that is is in accord with the Dao will it prove beneficial [ji]. Thus always have such desire so that you can see those ends to which things finally arrive.

See above. Needless to say, I disagree slightly with the term ‘revert’, since the process isn’t about reclamation but rather about transformation. At best, you can achieve a transformation back to something similar, but last I checked, you can’t step into a river twice.

These two emerge together but have different names. Together, we refer to them as mystery: the mystery upon mystery and gateway to all subtleties.

The “two” are origin and mother. “Emerge together” means that they emerge together from mystery. They “have different names” because what these apply cannot be the same. At the start, it [mystery] is referred to as “origin” and, at the end, it is referred to as “mother”. Mystery is the dark, where in silence absolutely nothing exists. It is where origin and mother come from. We cannot treat it as something to be named. This the text cannot say, “Together, they have the same name: mystery” but instead says, “Together, we refer to them as mystery.” The reason it refers to them in this way is that there is no other way that it may be treated. Because it has to refer to them in this way, it could not just stop and restrict their meaning to the single word “mystery.” If it had restricted their meaning to the single word “mystery,” this name certainly would have been far off the mark. Thus the text says, “mystery upon mystery.” All subtleties emerge from mystery. Thus the text says that is is “gateway of all subtleties”.

No surprises in my quibbles here, I see the ‘two’ not as ‘origin’ and ‘mother’ but as ‘thing’ and ‘principle’. However, I don’t see those ideas as being contradictory. As I have stated in numerous other threads, intelligence has its roots in physicality, and the same principle applies here. So, I will gloss ‘origin’ to ‘thing’ and ‘mother’ to ‘principle’. I think this correlation is fair, since our origins are invariably an act (acts are ‘things’ in the qi-system. Process philosophy, remember? Everything is a verb!), but our maturation (mother) is a matter of context whereby we can grow. Both of these represent “ways” ("dao"s) and it is the traveling of such a way (dao) that constitutes the Dao (Dao – I wish this ‘capital’ vs. ‘lower-case’ distinction existed in Chinese. Very subtle, very nice).

Speaking of ‘subtlety’, I have barely addressed this vital concept in this commentary. To give this concept any degree of due justice, I will have to provide a context for my understanding (is anybody noticing a pattern here? Sorry, that was a pun – the word I am using for ‘context’ (li*) is often translated as ‘principle’, but can also be rendered ‘pattern’ – but enough of philological geekery!) I would like to provide the Daxue, the first text that a Confucian was taught to learn since the Song period:

So, if we take the bolded portion to heart and apply it to the DDJ’s idea of what a beginning and an ending constitute, to remind you: “always be without desire so as to see their subtlety. And always have desire so as to see their ends.” We have to remember that the thing-itself precedes our understanding of it, but our perception of the thing is entirely contingent upon the biases that we are bringing to the table.

Yes, the-process-in-itself, has no referent but itself, and lies beyond language. The Dao is a written compilation, Dao-ing, or way making, is process.

A quibble here. While there may be a discernable pattern, part of that which is process is both spontaneity and novelty as a ‘thing’ evolves and our perspective changes at the same time. How we interact within an experience is always ‘new’ -ie- we our affected by experiencing a ‘thing’ and a thing is affected by our action or reaction. In this sense, all experience is unique and never completed. The dance is endless…

There are a few concept words that could be introduced here, but best to wait when they are needed for a fuller explanation.

One more slight difference… principle or pattern suggests a fixed perspective. I tend to look to the term “self-so”. While we have no choice but to create a construct to make “sense” of the world, we must ever remain sensitive to the fact that we create all constructs and that ’things’ are independent of our constructs, no matter how useful they may be. A subtlety, but in keeping with the statement:

I agree that the rendering of li is clumsy, I have heard ‘organic pattern’ used before, and I think that comes close to explaining it. After all, I think everyone here recognizes that all human individuals are distinct from one another, yet despite those differences, we are all equally human. That agglomeration of aspects that make us ‘human’ are our shared principle. Dao has a shared principle with itself, which gives the way its continuity despite its ever-changing nature.

I disagree with your notion that the Dao is a process without a referent. I think that the Dao requires a human (or at least sapient) observer. As Confucius said, “The way isn’t capable of broadening the man, but man is capable of broadening the way.”

I find it difficult to trace the Dao back causally as the origin of the myriad things, especially since its nature is by definition so un-traceable. It is not rhetorically that I have problems in dealing with it (for I understand that it is not a constant to be described in language), but intellectually as a framework to work with… especially when it says that all things originate in nothingness [wu]. I mean, most of Western metaphysics says that nothing can arise out of nothing (in an ontological sense).

Perhaps you could disambiguate the wu term and the meaning of ‘originate’, as in ‘Anything that exists originates in nothingness’.

By the way, this is interesting stuff. Keep it up.

Xunzian,

Not in the least. That we are aware of the mystery, name and discuss attributes, is only for us. That which is nameless cares no more and no less about humans than a lily bulb or a grasshopper.

MS,

The difficult part to grasp is that in Taoist cosmology, there is no permanent reality but only appearances. The is nothing but the flow of experience without beginning or end. If we think of traditional western cosmology, there is beginning and end with ‘laws of nature’ that are discoverable by humans. This is the Greek influence that creates a fixed view of ‘things’ with boundaries and edges. The Taoist or Chinese thought has no concept a fixed reality. In this sense, it is acosmotic thinking. There is no beginning (to know) or ending (to know). There is nothing but the mystery… The field of experience is one of constant transformation of unbounded possibility. There is no fixed order, beginning, or end. In short, there is no permanent perspective outside of experience, and that experience is always from a changing perspective (yours) . If this sounds fuzzy, it is because I’m saying it badly. Someone give me some help?

I can write more about wu (無, ‘not have’, the negation that Daoists are so fond of. Wuwei = actionless action, wuxin = unconcious thought, ect) when I get home. There are far greater minds than my own who have written on that topic, and I’d rather use the big guns for something as delicate as that.

But I think that the short answer to your question would be to respond with the question of, “where were you before you were born?” No matter what perspective you take on this, the question is pretty much nonsensical. The only answer that really makes sense is to say that you simply weren’t before you were born (conceived, if you want to take a pro-life stance, but that only pushes the question back nine months). But, before you were born, there was the potential for you being born (since you did end up being here, reading this). In that vein, the Dao exists as a potential whose ceaseless change between being and becoming allows for the manifestation of existence.

Now, did ‘you’ arise from a thing (such as a gamete) or did you arise from the interactions of things (such as your social entanglements or your neural network)? That debate has raged for a long time, and either side has plenty of supporters. However, I think it is fair to say that each of those aspects only cover part of the story and that it is both of them and their interactions with each other that allows for that agglomeration of experience that is ‘you’ right now and will be a new you the next instant, as it has always been since you arose from nothingness.

Similarly, where did the universe come from? Stephen Hawkings once famously quipped that since time begins at the Big Bang, asking questions like ‘what happened before the Big Bang’ are absolutely absurd. This idea has been expanded upon by other where:

Likewise, what is the universe expanding into? These questions have no sensible answer aside from ‘nothing’.

Tent,
I think that the immanent and impermanent nature of reality and experience that you outlined in the second half of your post belies the assertion that you made in the first half.

If experiential reality is what constitutes Daoist reality, then this needs to be done from the standpoint of an experiencer. Something that exists independently of such an experiencer literally cannot exist given that postulate.

It is true that there is nothing but from a perspectival point, and we are incapable of anything outside perspective, but that is the limitation, first, of focus, then language. I have no idea what perspective is enjoyed by a lily bulb, or a piece of granite… But to assume that we alone are capable of perspective is a narrow interpretation of the ‘ten thousand things’. Again, I’ll use the term ‘self-so’ - ziran Ziran carries multiple meanings, but in this sense it is the spontaneous arising from the flow. Coming into being is the metaphor of the ‘swinging gateway’. There may be a predisposition and propensity in coming into being, but the ‘ten thousand things’ arise without help from humans. They come unannounced, and are complete within themselves. That we act and react to the temporary modes of persistence is only from our perspective, and not from the perspective of any other of the ‘ten thousand things’. In this sense, all things are experiencers, or are modalities of experience. The coming into being, maturation, and returning to the flow is the same process for a lily bulb as for a human, just a different perspective.

Nice thread, Xunzian.

I have in some ways a different interpretation of the original Daodejing text but will focus my comments on what Wang Bi (or you) wrote since that seems to be your focus (correct me if I’m wrong). I’m not what you’d call an ‘origin-based’ viewer of these things, conventionally speaking, and also think that the term ‘desire’ must be used cautiously. So these views influence my interpretation. And so it goes.

I’d say this is probably one of the few significant assertions where I’d find some disagreement as a Madhyamaka Buddhist. But it could always be boiled down to semantics and, thus, not a big deal. We have to ‘name’ in this conventional realm and I’d be disinclined to name anything as ‘ever-new’ or ‘never-new’. Or, to put it more precisely, I realize process of change only and would point to ‘it’ as both ‘ever-new’ and ‘never-new’ and neither ‘ever-new’ nor ‘never-new’.

I would substitute ‘true nature’ or ‘essential nature’ for ‘origin’. I find the obvious Taoist roots of Zen Buddhism here; a similar term in Mayahana Buddhism is Dharmakaya or Buddha nature. I’m not sure of the above translation, because it seems to imply a form-nature of that which is formless. I’d say that “…before it has forms and when it is still nameless…” implies to me emptiness i,[/i] but I’ve never understood emptiness in terms of 'before it has forms’. Although it is the mind that gives form, the point is to understand their true nature. As the Heart Sutra notes, “form is emptiness, emptiness is form”. Again, the bolded statement says that to me, perhaps it’s just a different way of describing the underlying emptiness of all phenomena. ‘Nameless’ is unconditioned; ‘named’ is conditioned.

All thinking of an unawakened mind is necessarily limited to either one or the other. The brain, well, mind, doesn’t hold simultaneously dualities. That’s why it’s necessary to learn how to ‘stop thinking’ in order to penetrate more deeply.

I’m down with this. It’s letting go; renunciation, abandonment.

My take on ‘revert’ is not ‘going back to’, but instead implies that the cycle of becoming/ceasing continues. I would have said it as “…so that you can see the true nature of those ends to which things [delete ‘finally’] arrive.” It’s likely not what he meant, but it’s the only way I can make sense of it.

I see the ‘two’ as unconditioned and conditioned. I stumble a bit on ‘subtlety’, as this still implies conditioned, IMO. They emerge together as two simultaneous, co-existent truths: the ultimate and the conventional.

I’d take some issue with this wording because it seems to place emphasis on ‘absolutely nothing’ rather than ‘exists’. It seems to imply a void rather than shunyata.

Agh, the Buddhist canon is divided into 3 parts, the last of which is a huge thing called the Abbidharma which is nothing but an expounding of the degrees of subtlety of the Dharma. It has gobbled up many the ardent seeker, to say the least. :slight_smile:

I don’t recognize the reality of ‘thing-itself’ beyond a conventional perspective, but very much agree with the second part of your statement.

Ingenium,

My take on form-nature which is formless comes from the observation that forms repeat, even though each occurance is unique. Just as the seasons of the year follow one another, so too the coming and going of all things. The only distinction I can gather and still see sponteniety is that formlessness has both propensity and predisposition unknown till form “arrives”. That seems to fit with “form is emptiness, emptiness is form”.

Could you expand on the term shunyata? Emptiness in Eastern terms carries much more meaning than western nothingness. My knowledge of Buddhism is woefully inadequate, and many of the concept words elude me.

Touching divinity brings ecstacy. Some call this Dao; some call this God. The flowing water of inner peace is the same by any name. No exposition is adequate or necessary. Somehow the empty cup is full.

This passage always reminds me of the Tetraktys, a sacred Pythagorean symbol. The two proceeds from the One etc. The ten represents the 10,000 things i.e. everything. The Dao is the One. It is similar to the Logos of ancient Greek philosophy, the creative principle of everything.

Because it’s empty, form has ‘real’ existence only in the instant it ‘arrives’. Then it ceases.

I can explain it, but will note that an explanation of it is not the same as the experience of it.

One way of considering ‘emptiness’ is to look at the page of a book and see also the sun, clouds, rain, trees, mill, pulp, pressing, packaging, distribution…and then the writer, words, binding, selling, readers, disintegration, dust. Although you see a piece of paper before you, it has no inherent ‘paperness’ to be found. So it’s ‘empty’ of an independent existence, because there would not be a page of a book without all the other things I mentioned. Emptiness often gets confused with nothingness, but that’s not correct. Because the ‘emptiness’ of the piece of paper is filled with all of these other things.

Humans relate to the world as though its objects are self-contained, definable and have an enduring reality. But if you analyze any phenomenon in detail, you’ll conclude that it’s ultimately unfindable. It exists purely by definitions in terms of other things - and one of those other things is always the mind that generates those definitions. So things are empty of intrinsic, independent existence. If they did exist independently, then nothing would have the capacity to interact with or exert influence on anything else. And we know that they do, by cause and effect. Causation implies contingency and dependence.

We also perceive ourselves to be substantial. But if we consider the self carefully, tear away our layers of perception, try to isolate what the self really is, there’s nothing discrete to be found.

Excellent point!

If we take ‘revert’ as you haven, then it comes perilously close to suggesting that at some time they have ceased this transformation. I know you don’t mean that, but I think it becomes important for the next point.

Which is that the only way I can conceive of the-thing-itself is that thing from its own perspective at that moment. I think that ties back to the notion of ever-new/never-new/ever-never-new/never-ever-new that you touched on earlier because the perception has a regularity to it. Now, this could merely be an illusion (which, I imagine is what you will suggest), but I think it is reasonable to think that this pattern is indicative of a true regularity of the process. It isn’t cyclical, but it is periodic.

Ingenium,

Thanks for the explanation.

I think that is the crux of it. It is the legacy of Greek logos. It takes a great deal of work to get past this and to see a processual world with holographic interaction and inter-dependency of all ‘things’. The concept of discrete self contained objects is thoroughly ingrained in western thought.

Xunzian,

The ‘illusion’ of pattern or regularity was noted in chapter 21, and it is as full of vagueness as all of our metaphors since. :unamused: