Dare I enter the forbidden realm?

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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Hi all…I have never thought of myself as religious, spiritual but not religious.

However, religion has always facinated me. I think because I was seeking myself, I am very introspective.
There is a lot of wisdom and enlightening ideas to be found in the worlds great religions, and I found much there that helped me to embark on an honest, openminded, and painfully ego destroying search for my REAL self, not the one every body else was trying to tell me I was.
That search took me to the Lakota peoples ways their religion. (among many other, but that one fits me best) For me it was never about the particular religion but a way to learn more. I am not capable it seems of believing what I am told, but had to “see” for myself so to speak. I went to a sweat lodge, some one told me that thier word for God (Wakan Tanka) means “sacred mystery”, and that hooked me right away, also having no ordained, “society approved” leaders helped too, it seemed HONEST to me.
I became very involved in it before I really realized the nature of attachment, thank fully I did just in time. Though I still enjoy the ceremonies I realize now that they are only one of many ways to find what I found. That is why I say I am not religious.

I also went through a few years of the 12 step program NA, and spoke a few times with a dr. of pysychology about my experiences. ( this dr. is dealing with “transpersonal pysychology” )

In the course of my search I found something I did not expect, a version of GOD that I think is perhaps at least slightly, uniquely my own.

I am sure others before me have come to similar places in thier own searchs. I see too many similarities between what I think I found, and what many religions contain parts of for it to be coincidence. I have also heard many similar stories to mine.

Enlightenment is close, but I don`t know enough about the buddist or indian religions to equate it with that.

Taoism is also very, very close ( by that I mean Lao Tzu is close at least the translations I have are)

The Lakota idea of the 7th direction is also close, although I must admit I still don`t know as much as I would like to about the old Lakota ways. Its kinda hard to being a white guy, along way from the teachers …lol.

I am still seeking to see myself better, and feel that I am in need of an honest mirror, one that can help me see myself a little better even yet.

I would greatly appreiciat if some one with a deeper understanding of world religions would take the time to read my post in the ESSAY or CREATIVE WRITTING forums about my “point of view”. It is quite long I know but it is a sumup of my entire world view and how I live by it. Any reply to them with thier your own views, what ever they may be, would be greatly appricieated.

(don`t worry I am real tough I can take any critisism or judgments you may care to make on it)

I have nothing to offer in return for your time except to return the favour by acting as a mirror for another honest seeker perhaps?

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One thing I’ve had to discard is the notion of real self. I don’t trust existential authenticity, pre-destined fate and any number of other ideas that suggest you have some predefined version of self that you must live up to. I think the self is created. Rather than finding ourselves, I think we must create ourselves.

That is an amazing experience. I can understand the attraction of god as “sacred mystery.” That is a definition of God that I can accept. I’m glad that you are seeking religious experiences, they are much more interesting than dogma.

I hope that it is going well. Have you read any Jung? There is some very interesting things there.

Perhaps, but I’m not sure it can every be reached but then again, I’m still struggling to know what enlightenment is.

Can I make a wild suggestion? I had a very amazing experience this summer plunging myself into Hegel’s Phenomenology. It opened up the world around me as a mirror and it reawakened me to that thing people call god. If you read it, please let me know.

I once sought out the world religions. I had this idea that if I went into the realm of world religions as if it was a buffet, I could find a version of religion that would make sense with my experience. That hasn’t happened yet, but I think it might someday.

You should read the Islamic Poet Hafiz! He is one of my favorite writers and very illuminating for seekers.

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A very refreshing and honest post.

I’m afraid I can’t help you with commentary on world religions. I’m very ignorant of details, though I have a spattering of understanding of many.

What I find interesting is your comparison of a Native American belief to the Tao. Both can be viewed as pantheistic, and I follow along these lines myself.

I’ve had major spiritual experiences while alone in the mountains. (I can’t think of an appropriate description. ‘Revelation’ is over-reaching, as is ‘awakening.’ Let’s say I connected with a part of myself and nature for brief but overwhelming moments.) I’ve also experienced the same feeling while reading scripture, especially the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas.

I doubt any of this has been helpful to you. Your post has been helpful to me, though. These are thoughts which I enjoy remembering and pondering. Thanks for the post.

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“One thing I’ve had to discard is the notion of real self. I don’t trust existential authenticity, pre-destined fate and any number of other ideas that suggest you have some predefined version of self that you must live up to. I think the self is created. Rather than finding ourselves, I think we must create ourselves.”

I am trying very hard to live free of attachments to any predefined ideas of self. Finding and creating are not so different to me from my point of view. The Lakota speak of an idea called the “red road”, it a also know as the “journey from the heart to the mind” it is about becomeing whole, finding balance and creating/discovering yourself. does that make it clearer?

“That is an amazing experience. I can understand the attraction of god as “sacred mystery.” That is a definition of God that I can accept. I’m glad that you are seeking religious experiences, they are much more interesting than dogma.”

I have been at it awhile now. At the risk of offending any Lakota present I will tell a bit about my experiences so far. I am a pipe carrier, an eagle dancer at the sundance for 3 years, with one year left on my commitment.
I have pledged to dance four directions for my final year of this commitment. I do sweat fairly regularly, and have poored water a few inipi ceremonies. I am not native, I am white. I did not choose this path but found it quite by accident, in a very real sense it choose me I did not choose it.
( For any lakota I may have just offended, please understand I made the commitment to the creator to carry this pipe for the people, to help, before I really had enough understanding of how these things are “supposed” to happen, of the correct sequence of events etc. I trusted my teachers and still do, I was unaware at the time of how strongly some more “tradititional” Lakota feel about none Lakota carrying pipes, sundanceing etc. If I had known I might have done things differently. All I can say now to those who feel I should not be doing as I am is this…
I made the committment to carry a pipe for the people, this commitment was for all the people, “we are all related”. The commitment was not made to the Lakota people it was made to the creator, and I will honour it to the best of my ability. If I have a “spanking” coming for my actions then I am quite sure that Wakan Tanka will see to it that I get one. So far he has been nothing buit supportive as far as I can tell, and I do try to listen.

Perhaps, but I’m not sure it can every be reached but then again, I’m still struggling to know what enlightenment is.

The definiion I am thinking of is the taoist idea, to die and not to perish.

My idea of god is abit like the collective unconsious I have heard spoken of.
I think that god is enlightened totaly and sees /feels hears etc all that we do, I think that he is also the empty unamed “tao”.
I think that when we die we join this one great consiousness.
Ok now this is the hard part to get your head around, it is all of it just one thing, ALL of it. Our egos/bodies creat the illusion of us being seperate individuals, we are in fact a part of god as we speak, it is god writting this, creating it, and reading it for the first time with his on eyes wich are also your eyes. Wakan tanka is with us always in this way, kinda spooky eh? I think that deep down inside most of us feel we are not alone, I often feel as that I am being guided towards some understanding. That some thing wants me to find it, to see it clearly but its like and eye trying to see it self, impossible without a “mirror”.

The reason I say enlightenment is that some of my experiences sound similar to “enlightenment experiences” I have read about.
My mind feels bigger, like it has more “levels”, and encompasses at times more than just “Bill” and his body. It is like it some how expanded, and now “Bill” is just a small, and not so imortant part.
I seem to know things that used to completley baffle me, and understand my emotions as never before. ( hell I was totaly afraid of most of my emotions for many years)
I have a deep and always present sense of Gratitude for simply being alive, I feel love all around me , radiating from nature. At the same time I am deeply aware of all the suffering around me, my empathy is at times almost overwelming. ( that is the main reason I made the commitment to carry the pipe, it came out of a compassion the like of wich I had no idea was in me)

Maybe its just a spirtual awaking? Maybe I just have finally completed the “journey from heart to mind”, and this is what it feels like. The lakota idea of the 7th direction fits with that pretty well actually.

“I once sought out the world religions. I had this idea that if I went into the realm of world religions as if it was a buffet, I could find a version of religion that would make sense with my experience. That hasn’t happened yet, but I think it might someday.”

pretty much the same aproach as me, I choose to experience as well as hear, read, learn etc. but not much different. I really do think I found what I was looking for though.

If you have time read the post titled “one point of view” in the essay forum, its what I meant to ask you to read any way, but I was very unclear about that. (I edited my first post to clarify) It is quite long but I really do think you would find it interesting, especialy if you are yourself a “seeker”.

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Yes, that makes sense. Do you mind talking a little more about what it means to be whole? The fragmentation of self through roles, relations and change does not strike me as a necessarily bad thing. What kind of wholeness are you seeking?

That is a definition that I can agree with. It is very different than the Western Enlightenment and avoids many problems that Western Enlightenment struggles with.

I’ll check out the essay you mentioned.