Delphi

[Amorphos]

Delphi

Bring it back ~ temple and priestess etc?

Better than biblical predictions [which were often written after the events imho]? Did Christianity give us something better in replacement.

More to the point;

Lets say that Christianity got rid of all the ‘bad’ or wasteful stuff, like animal sacrifices, it also got rid of all the good stuff, astronomy, philosophy [though not really part of the religion] etc.

What I abhor most is that it made magical practice illegitimate, it took divinity away from us, we were not allowed to touch it, make divinations from it. isn’t the bible a load of divinations?

What is divinity saying to us now?

For me its trying to bring us back to it, not by any particular religion though ~ I don’t think it ever wanted that, or at best exclusivity was only ever supposed to be a stage.

[Amorphos]

I know there were many dodgy gods and goddesses back in pagan times, as I see it Buddhists got around this problem with Buddhist deities, Christians perhaps with saints.

So I suppose I am asking if e.g. Apollo was a bad deity. If one were not a Buddhist or christian, whats so bad about an updated paganism?

Or should I be looking for something which replaces the whole load of them all, and of all religions?

What’s the future of deity worship, and how can that be made universal, does it need to be?

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

@Amorphos

I know there were many dodgy gods and goddesses back in pagan times, as I see it Buddhists got around this problem with Buddhist deities, Christians perhaps with saints.

So I suppose I am asking if e.g. Apollo was a bad deity. If one were not a Buddhist or christian, whats so bad about an updated paganism?

Or should I be looking for something which replaces the whole load of them all, and of all religions?

What’s the future of deity worship, and how can that be made universal, does it need to be?

Why not a ‘Strings’ deity? as in the quantum string theory. Or is that the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

[felix_dakat]

Lets say that Christianity got rid of all the ‘bad’ or wasteful stuff, like animal sacrifices, it also got rid of all the good stuff, astronomy, philosophy [though not really part of the religion] etc.

If Chrisitanity “got rid of” all that good stuff, how is it that good stuff is still around? Science may have “gotten rid” of philosophy, or at least some prominent 20th century academics thought so. And yet…

What I abhor most is that it made magical practice illegitimate, it took divinity away from us, we were not allowed to touch it, make divinations from it. isn’t the bible a load of divinations?

Well some of it was bullshit. You have found some that isn’t? Do tell.

What is divinity saying to us now?

That we are going to destroy ourselves if we don’t course correct very soon.

For me its trying to bring us back to it, not by any particular religion though ~ I don’t think it ever wanted that, or at best exclusivity was only ever supposed to be a stage.

Yes, as someone once said, when we become adults, we put away childish things.

[James_S_Saint]

@felix dakat

Well some of it was bullshit. You have found some that isn’t? Do tell.
.
.
Yes, as someone once said, when we become adults, we put away childish things.

But certainly not anti-religion.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

@Amorphos

Lets say that Christianity got rid of all the ‘bad’ or wasteful stuff . . .

Christianity killed Pan, and it's a damn good thing!  Pan was a stinky 

goat-man-god who’s domain was the forests. Apparently he was more horny
than just the horns on his head. At times he would take to playing his
pan-flute in the woods. And the music from his flute was quite
enchanting indeed - to the women.
When the women heard Pan’s spell binding melody they would go warm
and moist in the loins and drop what they were doing, or rise up from the
bed, and be completely compelled, trance like, to go into the forest and
seek the stinky goat-man-god to offer themselves for sex. And he, being
more animal than anything else, was virile enough to satisfy them all in one
night.
Even the gay men in nearby villages, also fell under his spell, and the stinky
goat-man-god, would satisfy them too. Pan was really pan in his sexual
passions.
Well anyway, the women were spoiled after that (and so were the gay men).
They not only went home smelling like that stinky goat-man-god, a stink which
they cherished, but they would pine for him with starry eyes, and long for the
sound of his pan-flute from the nearby forests. I guess once you go Pan, you
don’t go back to man.
Of course all the men, the fathers, husbands, and boyfriends, of the women
in the nearby villages, towns, and settlements, that surrounded the forest,
hated him.
I know I would, and you probably would too. So it’s a good thing that
Christianity killed Pan. And got rid of that stinky flute playing goat-man-god.
Don’t you think?..

[felix_dakat]

@James S Saint

@felix dakat

Well some of it was bullshit. You have found some that isn’t? Do tell.
.
.
Yes, as someone once said, when we become adults, we put away childish things.

But certainly not anti-religion.

I’m quoting the apostle Paul there my friend. Surely you are not suggesting that Paul was anti-religion. But, yeah, I was speaking strictly from my personal perspective, I do not expect other people to go the route I am going. My statement was not intended to be a judgment of people taking other paths than me.

[felix_dakat]

@V-OutOfTheWilderness

@Amorphos

Lets say that Christianity got rid of all the ‘bad’ or wasteful stuff . . .

Christianity killed Pan, and it's a damn good thing!  Pan was a stinky 

goat-man-god who’s domain was the forests. Apparently he was more horny
than just the horns on his head. At times he would take to playing his
pan-flute in the woods. And the music from his flute was quite
enchanting indeed - to the women.
When the women heard Pan’s spell binding melody they would go warm
and moist in the loins and drop what they were doing, or rise up from the
bed, and be completely compelled, trance like, to go into the forest and
seek the stinky goat-man-god to offer themselves for sex. And he, being
more animal than anything else, was virile enough to satisfy them all in one
night.
Even the gay men in nearby villages, also fell under his spell, and the stinky
goat-man-god, would satisfy them too. Pan was really pan in his sexual
passions.
Well anyway, the women were spoiled after that (and so were the gay men).
They not only went home smelling like that stinky goat-man-god, a stink which
they cherished, but they would pine for him with starry eyes, and long for the
sound of his pan-flute from the nearby forests. I guess once you go Pan, you
don’t go back to man.
Of course all the men, the fathers, husbands, and boyfriends, of the women
in the nearby villages, towns, and settlements, that surrounded the forest,
hated him.
I know I would, and you probably would too. So it’s a good thing that
Christianity killed Pan. And got rid of that stinky flute playing goat-man-god.
Don’t you think?..

A repulsive vision to be sure, V. Yes there were losses. We do not even know what riches of the wisdom of antiquity Christians destroyed when they burned the library at Alexandria.

[Typist]

@felix dakat

Yes, as someone once said, when we become adults, we put away childish things.

Probably true, except that we are no where near being adults just yet.

Surely you are not suggesting that Paul was anti-religion.

Religion itself is anti-religious. Thus, we might argue Paul was indeed anti-religious, though not consciously.

If Paul truly did have a profound soul shaking vision of an all powerful loving God…

…Why the need to tell everybody about that God, and urge them to do XYZ etc??

Surely an all powerful loving God can take care of whatever needs to be done, yes?

Religion is not for the faithful, but for those who wish they had faith.

[felix_dakat]

Probably true, except that we are no where near being adults just yet.

Jesus said “Let the little children to come to me.” Life is a “come-as -you are” party. Jesus said so in several of his “love-feast” parables.

Surely you are not suggesting that Paul was anti-religion.

Religion itself is anti-religious. Thus, we might argue Paul was indeed anti-religious, though not consciously.

He was anti the parts of religion he didn’t like…kinda like most people.

If Paul truly did have a profound soul shaking vision of an all powerful loving God…

…Why the need to tell everybody about that God, and urge them to do XYZ etc??

Surely an all powerful loving God can take care of whatever needs to be done, yes?

Depending on which account you choose, either Jesus told him to do it, or Jesus commended him to some local believers who directed him that way.

Religion is not for the faithful, but for those who wish they had faith.

That’s stated pretty axiomatically, Typist. How do you know that? If you observed that about people 100% of the time in your own experience, how can you validly generalize from your experience to the entire population of religious people?

[Typist]

That’s stated pretty axiomatically, Typist. How do you know that?

I don’t know, I’m just stating a um, creative opinion, in an attempt to explore beyond the usual thought patterns.

It seems reasonable to ask…

Why would someone who truly has faith in God need the Pope, a preacher, a holy book, or any other authority? Why would they need religion? If such a person has a question or needs advice etc, why not go straight to the Big Guy?

If such a person doesn’t hear a reply to their question, have they considered that silence is the answer to their question? If one truly has faith in God, wouldn’t one accept that silence as a valid authoritative reply straight from the top?

Here’s a little personal story which is perhaps relevant.

I was born Catholic, but converted to surfing as a teenager back in the 60s. I was far more devoted to surfing than I ever was to mass, and never missed a good day.

So one day, maybe 1966 or so, I was surfing by myself and a storm came up. So I got out of the water and sat under the overhang of a nearby beach house waiting for the lightening to pass.

To pass the time I decided to ask that classic “If you’re there God, give me a sign” question. It was really just something for a bored kid to do, that’s all. No religious fervor involved, as my family was the laziest of Catholics, me included.

So I asked.

And waited.

And waited.

A bolt of lightening perhaps? A HUGE wave? A girl who lost her bathing suit top in the surf running down the beach? A manta ray breaching just off shore? Anything unusual will do.

But nothing. Just the same old rain.

So ok, nothing it is, who cares, let’s get back to surfing. And that was that, no big deal. Just the usual thinking too much by baby Typist. Nothing unusual, just another day on the job. I really didn’t care.

Fast forward almost 50 years.

I don’t remember anything else about that day. Don’t remember how good the waves were, or even if they were big or small. Don’t remember what I did before or after surfing. I can’t say I remember anything else about that month, even what season it was, weekday or weekend, nothing. Almost all the memories of that period are gone now except for…

That question, and the answer.

For me personally, this is just entertaining, and most likely says more about my nerd personality and gradually rotting brain than anything else…

It seems a person of true faith in God would have accepted the delayed reply without complaint. It seems such a person would say, “If I’m supposed to wait for an answer, I’m supposed to wait, so I’ll wait.” Why would they run down the street and ask a preacher? They already have their answer, straight from the top, they’re supposed to wait.

Why does a person of faith need religion?

[felix_dakat]

Why would someone who truly has faith in God need the Pope, a preacher, a holy book, or any other authority? Why would they need religion? If such a person has a question or needs advice etc, why not go straight to the Big Guy?

Part of their faith is that God is working through the instrument of the church.

If such a person doesn’t hear a reply to their question, have they considered that silence is the answer to their question? If one truly has faith in God, wouldn’t one accept that silence as a valid authoritative reply straight from the top?

Not necessarily. Their faith is in sacramental authority vested in the church by Jesus the Christ.

Here’s a little personal story which is perhaps relevant.

I was born Catholic, but converted to surfing as a teenager back in the 60s. I was far more devoted to surfing than I ever was to mass, and never missed a good day. So one day, maybe 1966 or so, I was surfing by myself and a storm came up. So I got out of the water and sat under the overhang of a nearby beach house waiting for the lightening to pass. To pass the time I decided to ask that classic “If you’re there God, give me a sign” question. It was really just something for a bored kid to do, that’s all. No religious fervor involved, as my family was the laziest of Catholics, me included. So I asked. And waited. And waited. A bolt of lightening perhaps? A HUGE wave? A girl who lost her bathing suit top in the surf running down the beach? A manta ray breaching just off shore? Anything unusual will do. But nothing. Just the same old rain. So ok, nothing it is, who cares, let’s get back to surfing. And that was that, no big deal. Just the usual thinking too much by baby Typist. Nothing unusual, just another day on the job. I really didn’t care. Fast forward almost 50 years. I don’t remember anything else about that day. Don’t remember how good the waves were, or even if they were big or small. Don’t remember what I did before or after surfing. I can’t say I remember anything else about that month, even what season it was, weekday or weekend, nothing. Almost all the memories of that period are gone now except for…
That question, and the answer. For me personally, this is just entertaining, and most likely says more about my nerd personality and gradually rotting brain than anything else… It seems a person of true faith in God would have accepted the delayed reply without complaint. It seems such a person would say, “If I’m supposed to wait for an answer, I’m supposed to wait, so I’ll wait.” Why would they run down the street and ask a preacher? They already have their answer, straight from the top, they’re supposed to wait. Why does a person of faith need religion?

Because religion in this sense is the sacred vessel of their faith. And though that is not the case for me, I can accept that that may be genuine and valid for them.

[Typist]

Part of their faith is that God is working through the instrument of the church.

Ok, fair enough, and to each their own of course.

But it still seems reasonable to ask why an all powerful God would need the services of a bunch of guys who have to pass the hat just to pay the electric bill.

Not necessarily. Their faith is in sacramental authority vested in the church by Jesus the Christ.

Well ok, but, um…

Why would Jesus the Christ out source such an important a job as saving souls to a bunch of fellows who are rather continually in the news for buggering little boys? This is of course directed at the particular religion I was born in to.

I hope my atheist friends on the forum are watching and noticing that I can be very even handed in my arsenic flavored evaluation of theological matters.

Because religion in this sense is the sacred vessel of their faith. And though that is not the case for me, I can accept that that may be genuine and valid for them.

Ok, fair enough. Surely everybody is entitled to their own approach. I’m making the classic error of trying to evaluate faith with reason, my bad.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

@felix dakat

We do not even know what riches of the wisdom of antiquity Christians destroyed when they burned the library at Alexandria.

Yeah, and the ‘truth’ they were protecting couldn’t have been very strong if it couldn’t stand on its own, without eliminating all that competition.

[omar]

Typist,
I enjoyed your tale of your uneventful day at the beach. There is a saying that it is easier to change yourself than to change the world. You did not get a sign you could discern, nothing special or out of the ordinary…but have you considered, perhaps, like Marshall McLuhan that the medium is the message? That deeper than a single bleep is existence itself?

[Typist]

I enjoyed your tale of your uneventful day at the beach.

Thank you, glad to hear it.

There is a saying that it is easier to change yourself than to change the world.

While I completely agree with this in theory…

…but have you considered, perhaps, like Marshall McLuhan that the medium is the message? That deeper than a single bleep is existence itself?

Well, as you can see, one of my problems is that I consider way more than is probably healthy. But I hadn’t considered your suggestion. Can you explain more please?

[omar]

Typist,
The idea is that we perceive wholes rather than parts. Within a given experiences there are several parts, some left out of course. But how they seem to us is a whole that is greater than the individual components. Reality is further a mediated creation. We are part of the message, we influence the message, we in part determine what is the message. The medium is the message because it is not void of will, of intention. So ask yourself: why would a bolt of lighting have been an indication of the presence of the divine?
What is deeper is indeed us.

[Amorphos]

V-OutOfTheWilderness

Why not a ‘Strings’ deity? as in the quantum string theory. Or is that the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Why not an infinite one? A divine feminine [0] benign and simply delivering information when we ask for it?
I know many psychics are charlatans but I also know some are not, how, because I am a druid and I have experimented with them, e.g. a friend got one around for a reading, I wasn’t there but I placed some imagery and ideas about me in the ether, and guess what, the psychic picked it up, exactly as I had placed it.

I don’t expect anyone to believe that, nor do I want them to, its much better for me if these things remain secret.
However, I would like my own temple please, then other crazies like me can do our shit there. I certainly don’t see why a given other set of crazies should be able to stop us [I.e. religionists].

---

Of course all the men, the fathers, husbands, and boyfriends, of the women
in the nearby villages, towns, and settlements, that surrounded the forest,
hated him.
I know I would, and you probably would too. So it’s a good thing that
Christianity killed Pan. And got rid of that stinky flute playing goat-man-god.
Don’t you think?..

Yes, but I’d see him as a metaphor of those kind of goings on in the world! Christianity didn’t stop that, nothing can.

How about the Celtic god Tarranis; the god of the storm; he gave us human sacrifice, sex n death rituals and general slaughter.

Again I think the mistake was to see such deities as literal beings. Did they say something about the human condition which would otherwise not be there? Surely we made them.

felix dakat
Its an ongoing battle isn’t it?

That we are going to destroy ourselves if we don’t course correct very soon.

Oh yes and that! I’d say that goes with being more spiritual, at least that not being so has been the cause of the problem.

.

[Amorphos]

Typist

Why would someone who truly has faith in God need the Pope, a preacher, a holy book, or any other authority? Why would they need religion? If such a person has a question or needs advice etc, why not go straight to the Big Guy?

Because when a shaman listens to the inner voice, he gets his animist shizzle, when the priestess at Delphi listens, she gets the word of Apollo.

In other words, there is no definitive inner voice! One doesn’t purely listen, one becomes part of a cyclicity. Our culture and personalities are as much part of that as whatever lays at the other end of the line - so to speak.

Not that I’m standing up for Christianity, I am just saying that religion kinda does that trick ~ the one where we get to hear the Hellenistic thing, or whathaveyou.

[omar]

I don’t know if I have clarified the stuff any better. Perception is the medium. Perception edits the contents of reality, it’s elements and creating its own narrative that makes sense, that has meaning. Think of the examples of ambiguous images but which perception orients, groups and presents with an adaptive meaning.