Actually, I think this is the crux of the problem.
The problem with Prop 187 was that it was trying to appease businesses that employ this immigrant workforce as well as the Californian public who (rightly or wrongly) view this same population as a burden on society. You can’t have it both ways (well not if you consider yourselves a caring and compassionate people).
[/quote]
The problem with Prop 187 was that it was trying to appease businesses that employ this immigrant workforce as well as the Californian public who (rightly or wrongly) view this same population as a burden on society. You can’t have it both ways (well not if you consider yourselves a caring and compassionate people).
[/quote]
Actually, no, Prop. 187 was a grass roots effort by regular folks like me to walked door to door and spent hours in front of grocery stores gathering signatures. Business had zip to do with this.
You are right, we should incarcerate business owners who hire illegals and not just fine them $5,000.
I want you to consider how: Mexico treats illegals crossing its southern border (rob, kill, rape), refuses to allow noncitizens to own land, does not collect any taxes from the wealthy, has plenty of natural resources like oil and fertile land, does not provide health care for its citizens or any other person who does not have money or insurance, will not extradite murderers, has a huge drug trafficing problem, vigilante justice system as its policemen are corrupt, and generally it has a corrupt government.
Mexico second largest industry is US money that illegals make and send home to their families.
Mexico needs to quit dumping its poor into the USA, and help its own.
This is a huge risk.
Do you really expect the US taxpayer to support illegals and their children? (This is also becoming a huge problem with a backlash in Europe as well)
Also, why not comment regarding how our Border Patrol and Police have their hands tied.
[/quote]
Speaking as a fairly liberal person myself, I don’t want to support poor people if they are here illegally. And furthermore, it is the Republican controlled executive and possibly the legislature whom are trying to grant amnesty to these illegals. So you might want to think twice before you turn this into a liberal-conservative issue.
Speaking as a fairly liberal person myself, I don’t want to support poor people if they are here illegally. And furthermore, it is the Republican controlled executive and possibly the legislature whom are trying to grant amnesty to these illegals. So you might want to think twice before you turn this into a liberal-conservative issue.
[/quote]
Have you read some of the crap the Liberal California Legislature puts out, especially Gil Garcia. He represents Mexico and Mexican illegals not the regular tax payer.
On the other side, we have the Republican neaderthals (pro life, draconian cuts to public services, etc) like Tom McClintock, but he is a vigorous opponent of illegal immigration. Believe it or not, he has proposed major fines and jail time for businessess that hire illegals. (He is one of the few Republicans who feel this way.)
It is both sides. There are a few like Barbara Boxer and Feinstein (Democrats) and Ted Tankredo Republican of Colorado, who work against illegal immigration and try to persuade Bush and company to pay for the expense, but Bush sends little or no economic aid to help with this problem.
[/quote]
And…
Do you not see the solution in those two sentences?
Having said that, there is obviously an issue with this:
I don’t know the problem, but I am happy to be enlightened 
I’m interested to hear your take on the European issue. Also, this can bring us nicely back on topic.
Britain has a very strong and prominent right-wing press, which likes to emblazen its front pages with headlines of ‘horror’ stories concerning immigrants. Unfortunately this reinforces the view of the bigoted and creates concern amongst the general public. To compound the issue, the two largest political parties feel the need to make voter-friendly claims; the Conservatives have come up with idea of a ridiculous quota scheme and Labour like to talk ‘tough’, although they are much ‘friendlier’ towards the issue generally. The result is that ‘democracy’ in Britain comes down to powerful lobby groups and the local politics of a few marginal seats (immigration being a hot topic).
The reality is that Europe does not face the problem the media is propagating.
Here is another thing to consider before our collective panties become wadded.
Both Europe and the United States are facing a demographic timebomb in terms of the number of people that will soon be leaving the workforce. As it is right now, there may not be enough bodies to replace all the lost workers over the next two decades. This is because, in addition to the increase of an aging population, the birthrates of most western nations have declined. This gap may very well present a huge hurdle to be overcome. Already several things have happened in America and in Europe that may very well portend what the future holds for employment in the western world.
Increasingly, companies are outsourcing services abroad, mainly to Asian countries with a comparably skilled workforce and an inherent ability to work for much less. Also, for more specialized, professional fields, there is a trend to bring in foreigners from abroad and have them work here in the United States, helping to fill positions. I am not talking about picking fruit or washing cars, I am talking about fields as diverse and specialized as medicine, law, engineering, business management, computer technology, and in some cases, academic positions.
I ask you now, when did this country become so slavishly enslaved to profit that it would hypocritically allow non citizens access to the very best sort of life many Americans themselves would aspire to, but not allow manual laborers the same benefit? Frankly, immigration should not be decided solely by financial interest. Oddly, that is exactly what is happening.
No, the US has build businessess in Mexico, but can only lease the land, and the illegals will not leave the USA. They do not want to return to the very open Mexican violence and corruption.
No, as you are a Brit, as is my mother and this particular problem is not yours. Also, I maintain correspondence with a few of my UK relatives, I have many, but basically only talk to approximately 4 or five. By the way I read much of the BBC, Euro and Arab media sources. My mother purchases This England and sends it to me. I know this is very right wing propaganda, but remember the EU referendum will probably not pass as there is a 70% disapproval rating.
I’m interested to hear your take on the European issue. Also, this can bring us nicely back on topic.
[/quote]
I thought we were talking about democracy, or the absence there of??? In any case, I have recently read in more than one source that there is a backlash against Islam, and many UK and European illegal immigrants are Muslims, some of which want to legalize Sharia law, (Canada). I have been persuing the BBC Islamic blog, and more than one or two individuals are really slamming this faith. Also, I have read that the UK and Europe tried privatization of retirement and this failed. Then there is the problem of illegals overburdening your social services.
Another poster mentioned the loss of the Western work force due to retirement. Hum, didn’t the plague instigate the Industrial Age. The less workers, the more technology will be developed to do the work. Hence, humans will have more leisure time to think instead of working like mad people for that loaf of bread.
Yes, similar to our neocons, but like the USA you have both Liberals, Conservatives and Moderates.
So does the US, but it is not enforced.
They are a bunch of pandering whores, aren’t they
Are you sure. Do you have the stats on UK and European economy. Doesn’t Germany have a huge unemployment problem, like 18% or so?
I cannot for the life of me figure how to selectively post quotes in white and my answers in the gray green. I have punched every icon on the idiot board without success. Shit, an I am a self taught end user since 1986. Sorry about that 
I have been trying to figure this out.
Damn, it appears that I have to type in the [ info ], what a pain.
You’re speaking of direct democracy, which is still in full swing on The Isle of Man. We have a representative democracy, which is the only form feasible in a population the size of Canada or the US.
True democracy does not exist, granted. Even when citizens create petitions and have them passed into law, like 187, often idiot judges, like the 9th Circuit Court overturn the laws as unconstitutional or some other nonsence. The judges should not be allowed to do this.
We’ll take them, we have plenty of room! Any Antonio Banderas look-alikes can stay with me 
What I’m trying to suggest is that if you stop those firms in California from employing illegal immigrants, then you will reduce the number that are trying to get in.
I don’t know what the figures are, but it is unlikely that the UK would support the EU constitution changes. However, this is not because of anti-Europeanism as such, but more out of suspicion of a federal Europe. As a nation we enjoy the freedom to move about Europe easily but fear power being removed from Westminster and given to Brussels.
The UK has a population of around 60 million and it’s a pretty small island we all share. It would be pretty difficult to hide any significant unrest and I don’t see any evidence. In fact, the biggest cause of trouble recently has probably been between the pro- and anti-hunting factions!
Just before the start of the Iraq war 1 million people took to the streets of London; I think Bush would be more unwelcome here than any Muslim. Throughout Europe the public were against the war yet surely if there was this backlash against Islam, we would be more than happy to bomb the hell out of the middle-east.
There is a potential time-bomb and recruiting from outside the EU is maybe one way of diffusing it.
No, there isn’t.
Germany does have a problem, but I think this more of a hang-over from the collapse of the Berlin Wall than illegal immigrants. The UK’s economy is pretty good at the moment.
Sounda like your hormones have overloaded your thought process. This is not about the land per say; it is about illegals overburdening our infrastructure and the major health risks they bring with them.
[quote="Shyster
As far as I am aware Democracy does not exist anywhere on earth. Your comments?[/quote]
You’re speaking of direct democracy, which is still in full swing on The Isle of Man. We have a representative democracy, which is the only form feasible in a population the size of Canada or the US.
[/quote]
True.
The problem the US has is that our representatives often do not do what the citizens they represent want them to do.
True, I am all for incarcerating employers that hire illegals.
Also, the older UK citizens remember WWII. My mother still harbors resentment as she lost friends during the Blitz of Plymouth.
Insightful. I did not know this.
I have also perused the BBC religons blog, and found several open attacks against Islam
[quuote] Just before the start of the Iraq war 1 million people took to the streets of London; I think Bush would be more unwelcome here than any Muslim. Throughout Europe the public were against the war yet surely if there was this backlash against Islam, we would be more than happy to bomb the hell out of the middle-east.
[/quote]
He is one of the most polarizing presidents the US has ever had. He also is one of the bluntest fools ever elected. 
There is a potential time-bomb and recruiting from outside the EU is maybe one way of diffusing it.
[/quote]
Hum, this is the same claim that employers use to hire illegals. Problem, they seldom pay taxes and cost more than they put into the system. I am not expert, but there should be another solution.
Are you sure. Didn’t you just state that retirement is a ticking time bomb. I just checked a few BBC articles, and you are right the numbers are approximately 70,000.
first i have some comments on immigration posted here:
http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=1637679#1637679
now, getting to our illegals questions, the problem in europe seems more human, so to speak.
in america, the way i see things, the problem is rather simple. having a nation that build a dream and the same nation fighting for human rights, i fail to see why they do not welcome every human being wishing to live the american dream. or maybe there is some hypocrisy involved?
a solution for the illegal workforce would be to give everyone the right to work. immigration nowadays is almost exclusevly economic: that is people searching for a better life or for a way to make some money to support their family back home. give all immigrants the right to work and the hell won’t break loose. Here is why:
Companies are already outsourcing jobs to countries where they find a cheaper workforce. Thus, the governemnts from the country where the company is based wins nothing. If a country like the US would welcome everyone who wants a job and would give them a work permit, the market would have its say. Being an immigrant doesn’t automatically makes you a criminal. The vast majority of the immigrants would then search/prefer a legal contract instead of unde the table payment (which also happens with local work force, not only with immigrants). They would do so because the penalty for illegal work is strict and severe (or could become). Then, the companies would be forced to pay them at least minimum wage if they choose to hire them. They could also refuse to hire them, since not many of them speak english (or the language of the country) well or at all. I believe that no judge in his right mind would rule against a company that refused to hire someone who does not speak the language.
There are some other issues that, based on my experience in europe, would not make things worse. There are the “low jobs” that people in developed countries do not want them anymore. Immigrants flock to take them, thus nu huge disequilibrium in the work force would appear. in many cases, immigrants are also a skilled worked force. coming from less developed countries, they are likely to be skilled in more areas than those in the developed countries. a construction worker from eastern europe with some years of experience is much more versatile than a construction worker with the same amount of experience from western europe.
more, a legal immigrant is all a state could desire. at least in europe, legal immigrants (except, probably, for some muslim communities) have a rather low crime rate and they are very happy to pay their taxes. their incentives (in terms of legal consequences) to follow the laws of the host state are much higher than those for the citizens of that state.
i think that everybody can understand whysomeone would search a better life. i see an immigrant as a person in search of a better life. if we are so fond of human rights and since we put in there freedom of travel and right to work, maybe we should search other sollutions than what we employ right now to the somewhat artificial problem of illegal immigration.