denying that genital mutilation is painful

I’m blown away by some of the things I see on TV. I was watching a doc on some of the African practices of female genital mutilation. The little girl, after undergoing the procedure, was crying and saying “It hurts! It hurts!” The older lady, her mother I think it was, replied “No it doesn’t!”

Now that bewildered me! How can she honestly believe it doesn’t hurt?!

Slicing off a piece of your body hurts, but even putting that bit of common sense aside, I questioned whether the mother’s own memories of undergoing genital mutilation when she was a child figured into her judgments of her own daughter’s cries of pain. Maybe she was one of the lucky ones who got to forgo the operation, but I’m pretty sure no female in that culture when they come of age escapes it. It happens when the child is old enough to remember the experience - and what an experience it is! - there’s no way it wouldn’t stand out in her memory for the rest of her days. So it made me wonder: doesn’t the mother remember the pain when it happened to her?

If we can rule out some of the more implausible cases (i.e. that it didn’t hurt when the mother underwent the operation, that she doesn’t remember it, etc.), I figured that left two possibilities: 1) social conformity, or 2) social brainwashing.

If it’s social conformity, that means that, deep down, the mother understands that it hurts, but dares not admit it, for that would mean going against the dogmatism of the community which holds the position that genital mutilation doesn’t hurt and that any questioning of this position is tantamount to an intolerable offense and ought to be punished severely.

If it’s social brainwashing, that means that the mother is convinced through-and-through that genital mutilation doesn’t hurt. If this is true, then brainwashing is an extremely powerful psychological force - powerful enough to either wipe out memories of pain or convince the subject that those memories are false.

So which is it? Is it one or the other, or is it something I haven’t mentioned?

It’s probably a cultural tendency that lends itself to a social behavior. Women of that society may be subservient in that society. Thus this is passed on from mother to daughter and enforced by the men of that ethnic group as a form of control.

Denial in one for or another. I suppose there could be cultural factors like one must always minimize or deny pain because to do otherwise increases it, or some such.

Most parents would rather not face the fact, especially in front of cameras that what they are doing causes they children pain, especially if they can guess the cameraperson and future viewers will not like the idea that they are hurting their child and will consider the reasons for doing this insufficient. I am quite sure the fathers of kids who play american football use this form of denial on occasion. Of course I would take a broken leg and heat exhaustion and bruises and humiliation and an elbow in the face and getting clotheslined by a 200 lb. 14 year old every saturday for the rest of my life over one cliterodectomy.

I was watching America’s Next Top Model, and a Somalian contestant recounted the harrowing story of her mutilation, I mean, er, her female circumcision :unamused: she plans to use her new-found fame to put an end to the custom/practice, along with other famous Somalians.

On a side note: I accidentally snipped a tiny bit of me while trimming my bikini area: I was in pain for days, and the initial pain itself was excrutiating, so I can only imagine the immense pain that those females must experience.

So is it social conformity or brainwashing?

Cyrene wrote something interesting about genital mutilation in his pain thread.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=167149

Other than Jewish men, lots of American men were mutilated (till late 60’s or 70’s?), I think.

Isn’t social conformity, brainwashing? :-"

I would agree with Magsj that social conformity is a type of brainwasing. In this instance it’s brought on through that societies cultural behavior which is probably indictable by the men of that particular group. Thus it is passed down from mother to daughter so as to be subservient to their husbands.That’s my best guess.

In my OP, I defined social comformity and brainwashing in different ways - and without this distinction, my question is useless to me.

Also, shouldn’t you have more evidence to back up your claims before placing the blame on a particular sex (or race, or ethnicity, or whatever)?

First of all Gib you gave this as your choices:

I came up with another alternate supposition.

Second of all, you offered the ethnicity part:

Third, you didn’t name the place in Africa or the peoples of that region for me to assign any strong foundational assessments to support any findings. Certainly, when you watched that documentary they would have given findings on it themselves. If they were right there dealing with those people and didn’t offer any explanations, how would you expect me to come up with any. The best I can do is offer opinions…just like what you were looking for anyway.

You must mean this:

Sorry, but I don’t get what that means if not social conformity or brainwashing.

Yes, but this isn’t blaming an ethnicity - it’s just stating a known fact.

This is a general phenomenon that happens all across the world. The documentary I saw, and the specific place and people, was just the thing that inspired the question. The question is: what would be going on through the mind of a mother, or anybody, when she tells her daughter who has undergone genital mutilation, or any loved one who has undergone any bodily harm, that it doesn’t hurt. Obviously it has to do with local customes and traditions, but what’s going on in her head? Does she believe what she says, or is she simply comforming to social norms?

Without having much else to go on, I will have to stand with my original assessment. Who knows what goes on in the psyches of people with those customs. All we can do is come up with best guesses on such behavior. The thing to do is if it is significantly important to one’s questioning mind is look to see if there are any studies on such things. Otherwise there will only be somewhat educated hypothesis like what was give here.

This is interesting:

fgmnetwork.org/authors/samia … pter3.html

This is of course not at bad s the other kind of female circumcision, but still…

I’d like to prevent all the bad smells his genitalia and anus make, preemptively.

Yup. Cut off a man’s penis and he will be less likely to have too much sex by certain religious people’s definitions.

But oddly, the husband can still be a nympho - the male version - and give his wife diseases which she can then pass on to children at the end or during pregnancy. Let’s get out those gardening shears, it’ll only hurt for a minute.

That’s boredom, submission, hopelessness, fear of oppressors…

A total lack of introspective efficacy on the part of these men.

Love to see the studies on this one.

Some of the wrong guys are making the rules here. And, hey, I thought the women needed to be covered up because men were so out of control. IOW horny as hell.

yeah, if only they could manage to kill her AND keep her alive so she can get pregnant. That would be the ultimate sin prophylactic.

Scared, cowed…

So instead of cGod showing compassion to women in general he made them horny in the heat and gave them some flesh that needed to be cut off. What, was this deity cutting corners? Are we in a budget universe?

blah, blah blah.

“I want to control my woman. I am afraid I am not the kind of person a woman would remain faithful to. I combat this by reducing her interest in sex via violence but keep the place I like to put my penis intact. I get the women to oversee the process so it seems like it is culture and inevitable and not about me and my fears. I then come up with other reasons for what I did. Then I believe them. Then I am shocked when other people do not believe them.”

Your thinking too much.

The mother isn’t thinking as much as you are.

If you find social conformity/brainwashing in animals then these subjects may have relevance here.

I am reminded of my son’s birth and a rather large nurse. Contractions had kicked in thanks to the drug they gave me. It hurt like no pain I could describe. In the middle of a major contraction the lovely nurse said " It will be easier if you relax." I asked her if she had ever given birth, “no”… at that point I was not too polite.

The mother comforts her daughter with an admonition to suck it up, be strong. The child is way too young to tell the mom to get F***ed. Mom does not quite recall the agony so she allows this to happen to her daughter. Some pains are so painful you can’t recall them especially if it is a pain that you must force upon another eventually. Your brain would kick the memory aside so that you do not feel all the horrible guilt and negative thoughts. Culture is a lovely thing :unamused:

That’s what I would call brainwashing. Thinking for yourself prevents brainwashing.

I think you ask a very good question, gib – how can the mother honestly believe it doesn’t hurt? I don’t see how she could.

Admittedly, it’s difficult to imagine yourself in the place of another whose culture is radically different from your own, and I don’t want to pass judgment on the mother. Also, it’s impossible to think about this topic without feeling horror, revulsion, and heartfelt pity – it’s a place our minds just don’t want to go. This level of atrocity is virtually beyond comprehension. And certainly I’m no expert, so all I have to offer is an opinion.

Based on your definitions, I think it’s more social conformity than brainwashing that enables the mother to repudiate her daughter’s cries, especially if we can assume that the mother had to undergo the same mutilation. I can’t begin to imagine what could’ve been going through that mother’s mind as she brought her daughter in to have this done. Besides the immediate pain of the procedure, it will deny her daughter the lifelong capacity to fully experience and enjoy her womanhood. Although the mother may not even realize that herself, if she suffered the same fate as a child.

I have to believe that any woman who willingly facilitates such a procedure, especially performed on her own daughter, HAS to be under enormous pressure to do so. Thus in order for both of them to successfully endure it psychologically, she is attempting to convince both herself and her daughter when she denies the pain.

A horrible, no-win situation for both of them.

Not only does it hurt but it primes the brain to more rapidly/effectively respond to pain. Babies circumsized without anesthesia respond more profoundly to future pain, crying plus rate rate issues at vaccinations or shots. Let alone more extreme versions of mutilation.

Anistas if you don’t place judgements you’re a bad person. Cultural excuses rarely justify massive human rights abuse. I judge assholes bathing women’s faces in acid, I’ll certainly judge the mutilating of children. I certainly think that you feel that way as well, I don’t think that you think culture is an excuse, some people forcefed the same culture certainly don’t.

I realize though that certain sociopolitical environments and religious disputes create environments friendly to those actions, still its little excuse.

Even hunter gatherers know better and cultural explanations are inadequate .in that when appeasing gods it didn’t have to be your blood*. As in they still choose to kill some against there will, when their own blood could be used.