Depression Insight

This is a message not an office or a scientific lab. I once heard message boards equated with a bar room. I think that this is more accurate. No one here is a mental patient and if you think that you are you are in trouble.

I plan on speaking to people here as if they equals, in that I will share what I have observed and what I know and I will do this in my own way.

It is true that this is a philosophy site and that leaves one open to speculation and musing. When I am doing this I will say so.

I pasted this on the other thread, but it applies here as well.

…so you dont care about anyone elses problems, just your clients’?

I plan on speaking to people here as if they equals…

Well what does that imply?

Take a soothing shower and reflect.

wow…a shower does sound nice…
thank you cupcake! kiss

Sure, I have a million suggestions like that and better! One may want to try a cool beverage or warm cup of something as well. Experiment!

actually, i have a question:
would a cup of chamomile/vlerian root tea really help someone sleep better?

I’m not inclined to believe it. Raspberry leaf teas is supposed to help menstrual craps and I know several women that have tried it without effect. My guess is that if there is anything in that kind of tea there would be a lot of conditions on it. For instance, the freshness of the leaves, the amount of liquid to chemical, a person’s body weight, and whatnot seem pretty important.

However, from a cognitive therapy perspective, the belief that it’s relaxing might change your mood and feeling, thus creating relaxation. Also, drinking a warm beverage can be relaxing for some people.

The tea thing seems like an a crap shoot.

What if someone you care about is depressed? What can you do other than just sweat it out trying to “be there” for them? How can you keep from letting their self defeating thoughts bring you down too?

If anyone has dealt with this, please help. Thanks guys…

Albert Ellis wrote a book called How To Live With a Neurotic and you should pick it up. There is nothing mean about it or anything like that. Anyway, the basic message is that you should try to get the depressed person to feel like they are helping you or others. Even if it’s just little things. Most depressed people have thoughts that are very negative and they are difficult to maintain when others clearly value them for their helpful work.

On a bigger scale, imagine if a depressed person starts helping orphans and over time they are pretty sure that they have helped a thousand orphans. It may then become hard to say that their life is useless and change is not possible. If no one else is doing it, then at least they are. They may even feel like a superhero fighting for justice. It’s hard to be depressed in this situation.

On a smaller scale the person could be told that they are very needed around the house, or help with things that you are just too weak or dumb to do. Of course you aren’t but they don’t know that. You will be getting them to do things, which is good, and you will be transmitting your genuine happiness. Also, don’t get frustrated if they do a poor job, because it’s not about that.

If this person is your mate then I also suggest snuggling their ass off. Affection is one of the best cures for almost anything.

On a related note try to get them out to nature and just be in it. However, don’t talk about it with them. Don’t say “isn’t nature great,” because it might turn them off.

If they are helping you don’t over compliment them either.

The theme here is to make the person feel loved and important without arguing with them about it.

Tell me what you think.

i think you just about covered it…
i guess all a depressed person erally needs is to find purpose, and i think that a long talk about life and the meaning of it could do wonders (that is, of course, if you have a positive outlook on life :wink: )

I mentioned this in my LOOOOONG post in MB, but the one thing I would add to Adlerian’s post (which I otherwise agree with) is the following:

This topic coincidentally came up with my group yesterday (they are severely depressed and in an in-patient treatment programme). Some of the members mentioned that they HATE when people try to “help” them as Adlerian recommended. They feel so encroached upon. That’s not to say that Adlerian’s advice is bad, it’s just that when they are THAT depressed, rational thought doesn’t always enter into the picture. One member actually said that he hates when his brother gives him ultimatums (ultimata?) to get up and do things (even within the house). He said that he understands why he’s doing it and he KNOWS that it works. But it still makes him so angry and resentful, which then makes him feel guilty for feeling that way toward someone trying to help, which then worsens his depression, which then makes him more likely to resist “help”…

It’s interesting that he has so much knowledge of this (he didin’t state it as concisely/articulately as I did, but he’s got the gist) but still can’t do much yet to remedy this pattern. I’ve just started with this group recently and, as mentioned, they’re hospitalized, so they are among the worst of the worst when it comes to severity of depression. What I described still happens with less severely depressed people, but they SHOULD be more amenable to such strategies.

BTW, the other thing to consider is that anxiety often goes hand in hand with depression (in my clinical experience, anxiety more often leads to depression than the other way around, but the latter pattern also happens frequently enough). So, that might be something else you have to deal with. That is, you might be able to combat/reduce the depression initially, but the anxiety might still be there, fueling the depression.

And the final note: Make sure to keep YOURSELF healthy. Don’t take things personally. If you find it’s too taxing emotionally, you may have to disengage, as hard as that is. I think I wrote somewhere else about how so many friends, students, and colleagues have been drained emotionally by the depressed person who just keeps “taking and taking” no matter WHAT they do. And the person stays stuck in the same “rut” no matter what the helper says or does. I don’t know if this is relevant in your specific example, vortical, but in those cases you really have to make sure that you do not let it burn you out.

Besides, James Coyne wrote years ago about this process, whereby depressed people (eventually) produce negative thoughts/feelings in those around them (most of whom are trying to help). The depressed person can pretty soon sense or infer that the others are getting tired/upset/frustrated etc, even if such signs are very subtle and perhaps unnoticable to the helpers themselves (or, given their emotional state and cognitive distortions, they may project certain things onto these helpers and MISTAKENLY infer negative signs from them). This then contributes to their sense of guilt, shame, worthlessness, unlovableness, etc., which once again feeds into their depression. Of course, this is not true of all depressed people, but it does appear to be a pretty common phenomenon which I have seen often in my practice.

You are quite an idiot and seem obsessed (perhaps abscessed) with me. You are so engorged with correction that you failed to mention the most important part of my post.

I indicated that you should not tell a depressed person that you are trying to help them and you should not make positive comments about what you are doing. When did I say that you should just have a long talk with them?

It’s interesting that he has so much knowledge of this (he didin’t state it as concisely/articulately as I did, but he’s got the gist) [An exploration of Psyquese indicates the subconscious desire to indicate that she is an asshole]

You guys really are a bunch of crackpots (embracetrees I exclude you if you were being serious. At this point I can‘t tell).

The book that I mentioned has nothing to do with approaching problems rationally, rather it’s about actions transforming behavior.

Yeah, well if this indeed is happening- how do you stop it? It’s kind of hard to disengage comfortably from someone you’re in love with, especially if you have a predisposition to depression and see too much of them in yourself. It then becomes about a projection and the resentment of such, in that you’re doing all of the things you wish someone would do for you to make you feel secure and loved, to a depressed person who seems to only have so little to give. He gives and then in an instant can shut down, leaving me stranded and hurt- this happens EVERY time I see him it seems.

Hey- by the way- you guys need to end your feud. Both of you had something to bring to the table, so where’s the fucking fire!?

Adlerian,

You’ve demonstrated that there’s no point in communicating with you, but I’m stubborn, especially when I see someone losing his grip. Please keep an open mind when reading what I write below. I SWEAR I am not doing this to patronize or insult you in any way. I’m trying to HELP. I would be remiss if I did not. After this, I leave you to your own devices and wish you all the best in your endeavours.

I acknowledged your post so that you wouldn’t think I was trying to usurp your position in this thread or discount what you wrote. I thought that my stating "the one thing I would add to Adlerian’s post (which I otherwise agree with) is the following: would be sufficient. I’m sorry I did not go over your post specifically, point by point, expressing where I agreed with you; I thought the “which I otherwise agree with” part would suffice, especially since I also lauded your advice in my MB post and complimented you there a few times. Sorry if you wanted more.

Ummm…When did I imply that you said this? Are you referring to embracetrees’ “i think that a long talk about life and the meaning of it could do wonders”? If so, then why did you later write

?

Adlerian, please get a grip. I say this with all sincerity. Remember what I wrote in my long MB response re. distortion (point 5)), not to mention complaining about others doing what you are in fact doing (point 4))? That is, it’s a sign of obsession when you start seeing ME in OTHERS’ posts, yet you accuse me of obsessing over you simply b/c I posted in the same thread as you, merely adding to what you wrote–and explicitly stating that I agreed with your fine advice.

Ummm, Adlerian? If you read the post properly, you’ll see that the “he” refers to my PATIENT. I sincerely hope you weren’t inferring that the “he” was about you. Remember what I wrote in my long MB post about inferring that everything I write is about YOU (point 6))?

On the other hand, maybe you were implying that I was being an asshole for stating that my severely depressed, hospitalized, heavily medicated patient couldn’t spontaneously express as clearly and concisely what I stated above (something that I was able to think about and write, after hearing my patient’s words, without the burden of being severely depressed and heavily medicated). If so, then you are really grasping there, Adlerian. I know I said to get a grip, but I didn’t mean for you to get a grip on/grasp for straws…(or straw men for that matter…)

Fair enough. I never said it wasn’t. I was just adding a few things that were not covered in your otherwise fine post. Please feel free to ammend my MB reply to you to you to include something about perceiving attacks and hostility when none are there. I know you’ve felt the need to label me a few times, and I’m sure you’ve seen the DSM-IV, so I’m sure you know what your behaviours appear like (if not, please free to follow the suggestion in point 2) to see the one time I provided clinical descriptions about certain types of personalities).

Seriously, Adlerian, please relax. How can I convince you that I am stating this with your best interests in mind? Okay, maybe I’m being selfish in trying to ease my conscience, knowing that somehow I’ve made you become obsessed with me and am thus trying to rectify matters. If psychologists could prescribe medication, I would. Since I cannot, the best I can do is recommend that you re-read my MB reply to you with an open mind.

I’m sorry, vortical, but there’s no easy answer to this. It is so cliched but true: You can’t make someone get better; they need to want to do so themself. Also, is this your b.f. you’re talking about? If so, you need to look at the dynamic between the two of you. I say this knowing there’s a risk that it might come across badly, but I ask with all respect: What about him are you in love with, if it seems he’s always shutting down and leaving you stranded and hurt? If it’s temporary and only when he’s depressed that’s one thing. If it’s more common than that (I think you mentioned elsewhere some other quite negative traits about your b.f.), then perhaps you need to look at the relationship carefully and try to understand what you’re getting out of it…what compels you to stay…what healthy and “unhealthy” needs are being met by him and the relationship? Looking at all of this as honestly as possible might help you decide on what’s best for you.

I’m not asking you to answer these questions to me–they are for YOU to consider when you feel strong/secure enough to do some serious exploration. And I’m not saying that you have to leave him. I’m just saying that you can’t take the next step till you can honestly understand what’s going on. You can’t magically change him. All you can do is change how you are affected by him (which first requires honest self-exploration), or the TWO OF YOU can work to change the relationship together. Or, you can change what YOU do; although he’ll likely be resistant to these changes at first, if you persevere with them, it SHOULD affect some positive change in him and/or the relationship dynamic. If not, then more serious reflection and decision making may be called for. But this all starts with looking at yourself and the relationship as brutally honestly as possible, as stated above. Please don’t take any of this as disrespect, vortical. I’m just trying to give a quick snippet from my experiences with couples thearpy (or individual therapy where one of the focuses is on the relationship).

Agreed, vortical. I’m TRYING to put out whatever fire Adlerian may see, but apparently my hose is full of gasoline (that sounds like some really bad Prince or KISS lyric… :wink: ) in his perception. Reasoning failed, and I think the best way to kill a fire is to deprive it of oxygen, so that is what I have to do with him again…

  1. Some of the members mentioned that they HATE when people try to “help” them as Adlerian recommended. They feel so encroached upon. That’s not to say that Adlerian’s advice is bad, it’s just that when they are THAT depressed, rational thought doesn’t always enter into the picture.

This is the distorted part that indicates that you did not read my post clearly. I mentioned that you should not discuss the topic. So there was no need to discuss it in terms of trying to “help” and just pissing the person off.

I did read your one sentence incorrectly. The fact is though that clients can report all of the knowledge in the world, but they are not telling you whatever it is that discounts that knowledge.

Frankly, I wish that you would exclude me from your posts. Personally, I think that you are a fraud that may actually be a mental patient or that you are some tech someplace having fantasies. Whether this is true or not is fine. If people are asking questions we can both post and people can decide what is good and what is not. If we are debating something then we can have at it.

Also, you really don’t address subjects that I have brought up in posts that respond to your posts. You just say things like “well he’s half right, but it’s really so and so,” and this leaves many things said only half said. That’s almost like a form of lying.

  1. I’m just trying to give a quick snippet from my experiences with couples thearpy (or individual therapy where one of the focuses is on the relationship).

Did you study in a thousand year time warp?

Anyway, I agree you should try to figure out what you see in the guy. Additionally, what makes you think that he is depressed? How do you know that that isn’t just his personality or that he is not much of a thinker. Some people are socialized in such a way that they are very interactive. I’m asking for a baseline on his behavior. What was or is normal for him. Meanwhile, I think that relationships can change people and frequently for the better.

Hoo-boy, that sounds nasty.

My own two new lira on the Depression subject.

Relavent Academic Qualifiactions: None.
Armchair: Large and comfortable, with a few crumbs in the seams.

Whatever the psychological cause/trigger - depression manifests itself as physical neurotransmitter imbalances/skewed dynamic equilibria in brain chemistry (as far as I remember serotonin/dopamine levels and their specific receptor counts too). It’s a vicious circle: Triggering event–>imbalance–>depression–>further imbalance–>greater depression–>greater imbalance… The further around the circle you are, the harder it is to break it.

Being sad is normal, depression is a disease. Do not be tricked into thinking it is you who is causing you pain.

Three options: you can take up a new activity, I personally found exercise/sport, done to excess - helps to exhaust the body, aiding sleep and providing a natural endorphin high - plus losing the kilos helps with self-confidence, positive self-image. Btw - the excess is important. If you don’t make a whole-hearted attempt, you will fail. Make your new activity almost central to your life, do it religiously

The chemical option - anti-depressents are getting better re: the side-effects. (You can now eat cheese and not die while on them… :smiley:). Though remember they only work if you take a course for a month or two, again religiously, as it takes time for the drugs to slowly push your neurotransmitters back into a ‘normal’ alignment. They aren’t a quick-fix like aspirin - got to give them time even if they don’t seem to work at first…

Therapy: I know absolutely bugger-all about this. I suspect it allows the patient to come to terms with the triggering event, and extract some of its sting. Preventing re-occurence.

Depending on how bad and how long you’ve been depressed I’d say use a combo: try 1 first, and if that don’t work, try 3 and 1, plus, if your therapist thinks necessary, 2 as well. I’d leave 2 as the last resort, simply because I personally don’t like the idea of messing with my brain-chemistry with anything but the old reliable ‘beer-and-friends’ option.

You tend to take everything awfully seriously when depressed, and feel isolated (“no-one has/can understand my problems” etc.) Damn near everyone gets depressed at some point, and do do some things that seem pointless/silly buy new clothes, laugh at your moody old mug in the mirror etc… Depression is one disease where you can use the body to trick your mind - wag your tail, and the dog will follow it up the path to happiness…

The craps thing is very funny! It’s a new kind of problem experienced only by a small tribe in the Amazon.

I have a friend that’s depressed. But she’s on the same insurance-funded chemical cocktail I was on, so I have a good idea from personal experience that there’s not much I can do for her. Psychologists are so eager to cram untested drugs down your throat for money. Psychology is kinda like the newest con game on the block.

What? Sometimes you feel abnormal? We have a pill for that. Sign here.

I suppose we’ll always live in the dark ages to some extent.