Depression ist just ...

Depression is just disappointment that the world isn’t the way we would like it to be. It has more to do with the midset of the depressed than with anything else, which is why medication can’t heal depression, it just stops the wrong mindset having the effect it would otherwise have and gives the person the status of being ill. This partially enables the person to overlook his displeasure or aggrievance and take on the role of someone injured - although it is only his ego that is injured.

Any thoughts?

I have a problem when I hear that “depression is just disappointment”…and “it is only his ego that is injured”…I do agree that most of the time medication does not solve the problems…what exactly are you wanting to say…

Bob, I don’t think anyone’s gonna be able to take down your point without telling you that you know nothing of psychology, or just calling you a meanie. They’ll call you ignorant, and hateful. Most of the people are going to be hopped up on some kind of experimental pill that a doctor, (who they probably worship). gave them, and they’re going to recite the line that ignores the reality that we simply can’t show that these things work through any means other than self reporting.

When I see people claiming to be “sick” and wanting to get on some xanax or some other kinda brain pill. I just look at it for what it is. It’s the same as a junkie shooting heroin, or a drunk needing his bottle to decompress from his day.

We all live in the same world, and we all deal with the same things, and some people wish that it was easier, and instead of learning how to make it easier, which might damage their egos, they choose an affliction, seek sympathy, and they seek to be intoxicated on a daily basis as to be able to ignore the reality of their circumstances that they refuse to change in a meaningful way.

If it’s not those things then what it is? If medication doesn’t work, then why is that the #1 thing they want to do for all the “patients”?

Why do you have a problem with what I have said?

Actually, I have a certain training with regard to psychology and experience in nursing the “depressed”, so I’m not as ignorant as they would make me :smiley: I have observed the dilemma of many people with depression, wanting the world to be different, bemoaning the fact that it isn’t, criticising everyone and everything without the willpower to get out of bed and do anything to change it. I am sympathetic in my professional role, but refuse to fall into their trap of making me react the way they predict I will (“you hate me!”) but instead remaining “professionally” optimistic and positive about them and their situation.

I also have personal experience of depression, which I overcame with willpower and the help of my family. Depression is for me that dark feeling in the gut that I know wants to take over and have me lay down and cry, but I treat myself as though I were an alcoholic and deny myself that craving through concentration in meditation, but observe it closely. I was on the standard medication for three days and hated what I became, and I admit, it took me seven weeks to get completely back on my feet, but I wasn’t going to become that person who drags himself and whoever he can find down the drain.

There are basically two kinds of depression; medical/physiological and cognitive.

Cognitive depression is purely psychological stemming from a cognitive realization that one has no hope (“it isn’t the way I need it to be”) and leads to emotional regressive responses, known as “depression”.

Medical depression is more common and is due to an imbalance in serotonin, dopamine, and/or norepinephrine production, most commonly causes by a corruption of the nervous system (via toxins or viruses). Serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine are a part of the mechanism for maintaining the perception that things are generally okay; no need for concentrated worry, no impending threat at hand.

There are other kinds of physiological depression, merely the failing of an organ, that can also be sensed and lead to emotional depression due to an inner urgency being sensed, but not identified. Or if it is cognitively identified but thought to be untreatable, emotional depression can ensue as the mind still yearns for some way to get out of the threatening situation.

Medication almost always merely hides the symptom from the brain causing a dependency and mis-impression that things are okay, even when they really aren’t. Such leads to the mind’s inability to adjust itself or make coherent decisions based upon sensed data. The mind ends up basically just floating in a medicated dream of satisfaction, eventually either interrupted with dire consequences, often suicide, or simply withers away, incapable of being able to handle reality because of being blinded from it.

There are two basic psychology treatments for depression (going under a variety of names); a perception of false hope and a perception of actual hope. And even when the depression is due to medical interference, the perception of hope can strongly affect the brain such as to reroute and often compensate anyway (commonly sensed as “willpower”). At times, the software can actually make up for wetware failures. But both require practice and conditioning in order to retrain the brain away from its natural propensity to over focus on the possibility of imminent threat.

you need to say more about what is bothering you…

 I think depression is not of different kinds, but of degree. I is very difficult to say if long standing genetic susceptibility has a generational beginning, as for instance, not clinically considerable societal depression may effect "sensitive" people to become clinically depressed.  For instance, i could site examples within my own family on my father's side, who are descended from a long line of Swabian romantics, who have embraced Schopenhauer  type pessimism, as a type of decompression, and being very sensitive people, they became melancholic as a life style.

Since this was in vogue at the time, their condition did not rise to the level of clinical depression.

This illustration can not by itself as it stands delineate either a social/psychological, or a psycho genetic determinant, so again the synthesis, of both, support a functional approach, where either genetic tracers or, social signifiers effect somehow the cognitive-emotional state of each individual, so effected.

To overcome such condition, may or may not need a leap of faith, and medicating may change the current biochemical changes occurring.It would be a stab in the dark to say, that social determinants which effect such states are sufficiently definitive in that respect, and further rhw effect of those markers may or may not effect individual states, and finally, if those states have an overruling biochemical effect.

Given this scenario, the ultimate question is whether the biochemical changes, have permanent effects on genetic markers, which in turn would conceivably star the cycle over again? This description would be in line to explain the cyclical nature of manic depression, where a useful adaptation of this model would be congruent with drug use, both recreational and psychotropic, as to the drugs could induce the states, whereupon the states would generate biochemical imbalances, which given a long enough time would permanently cause genetic cognitive adaptations. can this type of scenario be extended to other forms of cognitive impairment?
Sorry to answer a question with a question.

Suffering from major depression with genetic roots for 55 years, I disagree with all above. I do not plan the episodes, nor think them into existence. I simply try to outlast them.

You have a better idea? I’d love to hear it. Self reporting is used in just about all kinds of medicine.

Or a stoner who has clearly smoked himself retarded.

But, seriously, that’s called pill shopping, not depression. And, yes, it’s probably an indication of addiction in many cases. Some may become addicted or pill shop because of depression, but to characterize all those who suffer depression in this way is reprehensible.

Aren’t you intoxicated on a daily basis? Depressed people rarely choose to be depressed, though I imagine some might. You’re describing a very narrow set of people who like to describe themselves as depressed. If that’s your impression of what it is to be depressed, you may just not know what a depressive disorder is like. I don’t think you do.

Bob wrote:

:laughing: I’d like to see your bed-side manner.

.
Not everyone who feels that way is necessarily depressed, clinically or otherwise. And for those who are depressed, it is not such an easy thing, I don’t think, to summon up the willpower to get out of bed and do anything about it. After all, real depression is not simply some kind of a mood that someone is in for the moment.
I’m rather surprised that someone, who like yourself has said has experienced depression, does not understand what it is like to walk in the shoes of someone who is depressed. You sound almost nonchalant about it.

You don’t sound too sympathetic or empathetic for that matter, at all, at least not to me, you don’t. You sound more judgmental and haughty, if anything. But i could be wrong.

How do YOU go about demonstrating to those you care for that you ARE optmistic and positive about their future?

Yes, you have no idea what you are talking about. Depression is not JUST…

This is quite clearly the depression I was speaking of in the OP, which is also the kind of depression I have experienced myself combined with exhaustion. It is the fact that I was put on Mirtazapine that got me. I managed to take control and fight the depression with sport and meditation, long walks and writing and pushed the tablets aside. I noticed how I came out of a drowsiness and apathy and became active again, and able to analyse what had lead to the situation, discovering that I had had a less serious brush with depression about 4 years before, and that this was my second time. I still have the feeling that it could come over me again, if I were to let it, so I am on my guard but at the same time a lot more relaxed than I used to be.

Presumeably you can measure an imbalance in serotonin, dopamine, and/or norepinephrine production - can you find evidence in the blood?

The medication I was on put me into a sluggish inability to do anything much, which was a frightening experience for my wife, who had never known me to be that way. It seemed like it was all OK, but at the same time it wasn’t and seeing the faces of my family worrying for me only convinced me all the more that it wasn’t OK. In my experience, it was the release from the (religious) idealism that had motivated me previously, that helped me gain my balance again. I had to stop being so utilitarian and take time out for myself, say “no” and show people that I had limits, then I regained hope and realised that the situation wasn’t quite as bad as it seemed - although, in truth, the situation isn’t better :sunglasses:

Like I said, having worked with people with depression, I had a negative example that I wanted to avoid becoming at all costs, which is a very strong incentive. But it was probably the activities I named which “retrained my brain”, as you said. And still, for this kind of depression, I still think that my first statement is true.

Ier, you probably have the other kind …

James…the ol, “imbalanced chemical” argument? Come on buddy.

Stat, I know we differ on this subject, but you can’t deny most of what I said. You just called me ignorant and insensitive instead, so I’ll take that as some kind of win. Me not having a better idea doesn’t make their idea better. Do you think that most of what gets called medicine these days is really doing what it’s supposed to do?

For the record, I grew up in a family full of people who were the 1st to hop on the prozac bandwagon, and my mom worked in mental health for more than half her life. So as much as you might want to believe that I’m ignorant, it’s just not true.

Am I intoxicated on a daily basis? It depends? Do you mean have I taken in some substance that can lead to intoxication? If so, then probably. But if you mean impaired, or dependent, or in a state where the use of the substance becomes a “need”, then no. Not in the slightest.

Three questions:
How do you get people to enter a discussion?

Did you notice that I was talking from a personal viewpoint, having been diagnosed in the past as being depressed?

Have you heard of professionally distancing yourself from those whose depression is like a huge black hole?

This is a position which most resembles what I was taught, that we begin (1) with depressive thoughts that are easily brushed aside by circumstance, then we have (2) depressive thoughts which are more stubborn. It can then happen that (3) the depression becomes a constant companion and the last step is (4) where it becomes unbearable and can lead to suicide. The flow is individual and can move from one end of the scale to the other and back again, depending on various factors and treatment.

James, would you say that this is a model that one could use when caring for depressed patients, to give some idea of where they find themselves and adjusting the handling of their problems? Nursing depressed patients requires us to document the progress and we need some model to work with.

I didn’t call you either of those things, but congrats on the win. I did make somewhat of a crude joke, but only to point out your hypocrisy. I think we do what we can until we find better methods, and I think lots of things get called medicine that aren’t.

Some folks in your family took antidepressants, so now you’re an expert on depression? Give me a break, dude.

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I meant the former, exactly like you described earlier in the thread. I’d argue that you probably are dependent to some degree if it were remotely worth arguing. Either way, you’re clearly being hypocritical.

Also, the need often precedes the use of the substance. That’s why the substance is prescribed. Of course, this isn’t true in all cases as you are so quick to point out, so obviously the whole of psychiatry is bullshit. Solid logic there.

Stat, it wasn’t “some folks in my family”. It have 10 aunts and 10 uncles, and who knows how many cousins, and a whole lot of them ended up pissing away their lives sitting around waiting for pills to make it better. You left out the part about me growing up in a household where 1 of the parents was employed in the mental health profession for most of my life, and you have to realize that believe it or not, I’m a pretty informed, intelligent and educated person who can see what’s happening in front of me.

I suppose if I had to debate a point, it would be that it’s kind of hard for you to show how these things are actually helping people, except to say that they told you that they felt helped. You know as well as I do that I can turn around and say, “well, I saw the opposite, and the people involved told me the opposite”. There’s no point in that kind of discussion. The fact is, one of us leans toward, “it’s helpful, we think, so let’s try it”, and the other leans toward, “it’s destructive, it doesn’t help so we should stop it”. Both position, in as much as they are based on our own observations, are equally valid.

I know that you can’t honestly say that you don’t realize the negative impact that this kind of stuff can have on a person, or their family. People kill themselves over paxil, and fall asleep in their plates on seroquil. Too many people are like the guys who want to take suboxone because they ate too many lortabs. If you’re on fentanyl patches or OCs, or if you’ve got a real IV heroin problem, then sure. You need suboxone. But most people who are on it are just on it because they want to feel good. 3 of my friends from my childhood have been going to get methadone every morning for over 10 years now. None of them ever had any heroin or anything stronger than the occassional OC. They just wanna be fucked up. The difference between me and these kinds of people is that when I smoke weed, I’m not pretending to be sick and asking for anyone’s sympathy. I’m also not wallowing in self pity when I do. Smoking weed isn’t a need. Neither is taking xanax in most cases. A great number of the people in the mental health system aren’t really sick at all man. They’re on the same tip as those people who are heading to the “pain” clinics at 5am. If you walked through these places taking your mom lunch for years and years, and you saw a whole bunch of inpatient people over the course of your lifetime, then you might see that there’s a lot more of what I’m talking about going on than you choose to recognize.

James,

Actually it is imagination or fantasy, not meditation. One can imagine while closing his eyes that he is the haven surrounded by 72 beautiful virgins. Though, technically it would be also a form of meditation but that is not how the term meditation is used generally. This neo-spirituality is messing with the concepts without understanding the basics behind. They are marketing meditation as a commodity.

Meditation is not beliveing in anything either good or bad, but focussing mind to a particular object in order to hear those subtle thoughts, those go went unnoticed because of the unnecessary noise.

And, that helps, more or less.
Though, things may change later but that is not the issue of this thread.

with love,
sanjay