Descarte felt that through enough rational reasoning, he was able to find that his mind existed. Thus, he questions whether certain things are real, then he concluded that everything that excluded his brain would have to exist, for if not a mad scientist like would be fooling with his mind(I think this is correct here, correct me if not). Anyway further rationalization led him to belief that the only thing that could fool with this mind was an outside being, something like a God, but God would not fool him, so then he concluded things can be real.
Further, he found that he had an ‘idea’ of a perfect supernatural being, therefore the only thing that could put this in his head was only if a perfect being actually existed, and perhaps put this thought into his head(I think I’m still right here). Would you believe that?
Would you? I don’t.
Therefore we can conclude one famous philosopher of the past may have been very intelligent, but such a proposition was hardly believeable.
This is a philosophy forum, but quite possibly, does anyone have any thoughts on maybe why he could be right? I don’t believe he is because for one thats a horrible argument, I could believe in a being, and then I have an idea of what can be perfect, put those two ideas together and get a perfect being. And as one man has said, the fact that believing our mind is imperfect can signify that an idea of a perfect being isn’t a perfect idea.
Why do you Think such a proposition is hardly believable?
I mean one can believe whatever they want.
Does it really mater if other’s see it the way you do? Or is it more important that you understand for yourself the meaning of such belief?
I beleive in everything. While some may try to refute this with logic it seam’s they have yet to so much as put a dent in my beleif, is this not proof enough for myself that what I believe is true and what you believe is not? (For “Me”)
Is this not the same for you and your belief?
Now the real question:
Why does it even matter to you or anyone wether another is correct or not in what they believe?
Why do you feel compelled to change such if you do?
I believe we have a purpose. And I believe we were given brains to use. I believe in the law of noncontradiction, but obviously you don’t or you wouldn’t disagree with it. Am I right?
Such a belief is not actual in total terms. You cannot deny the law of noncontradiction, which you do when you say you believe everything and that anyone can have the right beliefs, for such things are not actual.
There are just no rules or boundaries in your world at all are there?
If there are I would love to know what they are and please don’t give me your standard “that depends on what you mean by rules and boundaries†statement, to thwart that right off I will say any interpretation or definition of rules and boundaries you wish.
Contradictions are only contradicting to those who do not understand the meaning behind the contradiction.
Just because you see much of what I say as contradicting does not mean it is, It simply mean’s that you do not understand the contradiction. Because if you did than it would not be a contradiction now would it?
I asure you nothing I have ever said is a contradiction. Because if it were than I myself would not understand it and therefore not state it. I only state what I understand. And that Very, Very carefuly.
This reason above is why so many cannot interpret religion or faith correctly, Becaus many cant get their heads around the metaphoric contradiction’s that are required to explain such a concept as a God or metaphysical being, And instead they choose to make up a standered which makes sence to the many rather than the few. These standard’s become your interpretation’s and meaning’s. And therby become your belief or religion.
If you are the only one to understand somthing, than is’nt it more likely that you are correct in your belief than another who tells you that you are or are not?
Kingdaddy,
No there are not, save those I myself do not understand.
That’s the worlderful thing about the infinite Universe and what I keep trying to explain to you:
Read my quote, the answer to everything has been in front of you since I joined this site. And there it shall remain.
Descartes was reacting to a threat of skepticism- he saw a very good reason to doubt nearly everything he’d ever believed, and wanted to find something he could be certain of.
What you have to understand is that he wasn't trying to prove the existence of God or the universe as independant facts (though he would SAY that he was trying to do exactly that). What he was trying to do is take what he already believed in, God the universe and such, and give a rationale for maintaining the belief after the fact. There's nothing at all wrong with that, [i]except[/i] that he doesn't admit to it, he instead claims to be erasing all his beliefs and trying to build them up again from scratch. That's why we run into situations like 'How could that possibly be an argument for the existence of God?'. It's not a bad argument, it's badly labeled. The idea that a perfect idea could only be implanted by a perfect being isn't really an argument for the existence of God, it's a rationale for continued belief in Him. It works a lot better that way. Do you get me?
Well since you’ve been alive longer the God surely you have learned to transcend some simple laws of physics so can you list what laws or boundaries you have learned to break or bend?
Yeah I got ya. I was just trying to get the discussion going by asking your guys views on it. Thanks though
The Watcher:
Even though you may think you’ve ran into some philosophical defense for contradictions, you really haven’t. Thus even positing such a thing as nothing can be sure of being a contradiction is actually a proof of the law of non-contradiction, there’s no way of avoiding it. Now the only thing we can do from here is understand certain things are contradictions. Now, perhaps you may not see it this way, but if two things oppose each other they cannot both be true, it’s not possible, there would have to be an explaination why such a thing changed. You get me? So if you can take something to be true, you must believe something else is false. If you even want to believe you can’t be sure, you actually are being certain that you can’t be sure, and even then you could try to say well I’m not even certain that I’m certain that you can’t be sure, but for some reason you feel you still aren’t even certain that you are certain that you can’t be sure. And even then you could say well… I can’t be certain about being certain about being certain if you can be sure about anything. But yet I can’t, only implies a certainty. A statement seems that it must imply a certainty. This is where the law of non-contradiction lives I feel, you can deny but you will contradict yourself when you use it again later.
You know youve almost got it…Not quite but almost. You are still baseing your belief on limitation’s. I do not.
Just as I can argue that limitations both exist and do not. It is all based around a singal principal:
The Universe is infinite while at the same time being limited.
Again read my quote at the very botom of the page.
I never said the law didnt exist.
I said contradiction’s exist only to those who do not understand the meanings behind them,
Therefore they both exist and do not exist.
Which shatters the law of non - contradiction. Which states contradictions can NOT exist…But obviously they do wether in your mind or someone else’s.
My point on this as alway’s is that you can not take a side. you must see all of them at once and understand that everything can exist and does.
Example:
Argueing weather somthing is or is not is pointless as you can argue on both sides for eternity. But the end result will alway’s be: They both exist.
So if they both exist, Why argue one or the other does not? Just accept it and move on.
Kingdady,
Yes I have, But You also forgett that I have only been “IN” a physical body for about 8 years. and though I can probably manipulate the physical in a far greater consistancy than say…you. I am still bound by it’s limitation’s as is everything else here. (Especialy since I curently exist in a coporial form).
You must also remember that I do not retain all of the knowledge I once had These caporial shells are no where near evolved enough to house that much information. Your brain would explode and shut down. Perhap’s when this body dies I will regain stated knowledge. But then, I would be different than I was anyway wouldnt I?
As far as your request’s for me to lable off what I can and can’t do… Maybe you should read the link I gave you again on the Post I am that I am.
Perhaps your Thetan levels are too high, maybe if you would shell out some more money to Mr. Hubbard’s church they could show you how to get them levels down far enough to let your powers shine once again. Do you believe in Scientology, cuz you got Scientology sucker written all over your “anything is possible†thinking?
Seriously, you’ve gone too far, it’s not even a funny story anymore. Everything you say and think and every limitation and description is totally human in every way, even your delusions are not uncommon among the sick minds of some humans. Seriously if you do believe this then please seek help and get over your delusions of grandeur and accept what you are, fighting it just makes you look silly and its really kind of embarrassing for you rather you know it or not. I know it sucks to be human some times but living a fantasy world will only make it worse in the long run and some day you may wanna get laid so lay off the sci-fi stuff their Buckaroo Bonsai.
Get back to me when you can break one law of physics in this body then I’ll be impressed, until then you’re the same as the rest of humanity that needs physicatriac aid BADLY.
Perhaps a contradiction exists in someone’s mind??? What if God exists in my Mind, does that make God exist?
Lol, you cannot shatter the law of non-contradiction no matter how hard you try. Sure you can believe it exist and doesn’t exist, but at the same time besides contradicting, it also opposes such a thing as it exists and exists.
The law of non-contradiction exists because it’s actual. Tis why it’s a law. Sorry man, many have tried before you, but if you wanna to try and disprove the law of non-contradiction we may as well be talking about a one ended stick.
And I’ll just add even if I wanted to believe as you, that everything is both wrong and right, true and untrue. That means killing the innocent is right? Rape is right? Nothing is right nor wrong? Magic does exist so when I tell you I have a red bike and then turn around riding a blue one theres really no logical explanation, the bike just changed colors, so on. I mean, you see it’s not actual.
C.S. Lewis once said when I ship leaves the harbor there are three things it must consider, 1. Wheres it goin? 2. How to keep from sinking. 3. Why is it out there in the first place?
Where is your train of though headed hmm? I just suggest you consider these things. Before using the law of non-contradiction and infer that I’m wrong and you’re right.
Um, yes if God exist’s within your mind then he exist’s. But he doesnt exist in mine so…He also does not exist.
Um, You just agreed with me. So what are you argueing over?
Um again, read you previouse statment. And your still missing the point.
Tell you what, let me ask you this:
Why is it actual?..Because you believe it to be? Or because YOU cant get your head around the logic required to dissaprove it in your own mind?
You cant think both way’s can you?
Hes a very good author, I really enjoy reading his book’s.
But, he is also trying to give a metaphysical example with a Physical one. Your soul being the ship and your conciousness being the captain.
What you, like most do not understand is that to navigate through the metaphysical no knowledge of where you are going or theory of what you will find is neccesary, all you have to know is what you WANT to find and you will find it.
In otherword’s concerning God, This quote is useless. All that is required to Find him is the want. No book is necesarry, no Saviour to believe in, Only the want to find God. It’s that simple.
I have spoken to God many time’s, and not in your in the heart or mind either. I have stood in God’s pressance tasted the fruit from his realm and bathed in the crystal sea. I have seen the Realm of heaven and the many cities therein.
And I will tell you It’s not what you think. Close but not. But I would not ask you believe me as you wont anywayand really shouldn’t. Just trust that if you want it you will find it. And Want of somthing in the metaphysical is enough to aquire it.
Actualy, I have NEVER said you are wrong and I am right. I HAVE said that both exist and we are all right, Many, many, many time’s.
You just choose to see it as the Black and white with no gray as a typical Theist would. Open your Mind Human, lest you loose it.
Kingdaddy,
Hmm, you know actualy I’ll admit I havn’t studied Scientology Until you mentioned it (Of course it is only about 15-25 years old, Even Wicca is older). And to be honest it does “Seem” to have a sort of balance with my own. But, it is not the entirety of it. The theories only explain a small part of what “I” believe. It does seem to also have Scientific studie’s and Historical evidence to back it’s claim’s up. As far as I am aware Your’s lack’s even this…
And if it was, My belief? You sate it as if you would “spit” the word’s out.
What in you would create this much resentmant or hate tword another? Perhaps it is you who need’s to Question there spiritual health and not I…
Yes my child come in come in, I have been waiting for you, Yes you! You will bring about the apocalypse and the masters Army shall follow you to Victory. You will clense this planet of all the Mutation’s and filth as One and I shall look down upon the and say : For this is my Son and He is well loved.
Hmmm,…Anyway.
You human’s limit yourselves to much.
And as I’ve told other’s the actuality of my existance does not require that you believe it as such. I am What I AM. Wether you believe it or not and that I shall remain until I am that I Am Not.
Also seeing as I am not the one who believe’s in a religion Proven by fact to be false…
Who say’s I cant? I didn’t.
You are right on that a good talking with A shrink who has a PHD in both Philosophy and Psychology would do alot of people well. I lived with one for 4 years. And if my memory is correct the previous owner of this body saw one for 10 years. I am actiualy thinking about Getting Mine in both and then a licence to council.
I do enjoy the Mind so.
You see the Funny thing is, You have no Idea wether I am Serriouse or Joking in the above #2.
I love it when people take the whole “I’m the mysterious puppet master, nobody can plumb my secret ways…” routine. The fact is, Moriarty, this particular corner of the web isn’t a very good place to ply that trade. For example, you’re right that there’s no way to tell if you’re serious or joking about the above. However, if you’re serious, then you’re crazy and can be ignored at will. If you’re joking, then you’re behaving as some manipulator and also ought to be ignored. Before I demonstrate such, one question:
Is this intended to be read in the vaguely European accent of a pulp-serial effeminate villain, such Scar or every other antagonist from Disney cartoons, or perhaps the more noble “Kind of like Old English but not really” twist, ala Dr. Doom?
Ok your answers seem very diluted so I will narrow a few questions and answers down here for you then.
What are you saying about the law of non-contradiction? I can only assume you are arguing it, to argue it is to go against what it actually says, and you are doing this, thus you are arguing the against the law of non-contradiction and proving it like so.
I think if you do anything here you might possibly start a revolution of blind moronic thinking, and I only say this because almost everyone in philosophy and who is intellectual is going to disagree with you here I’m sorry. Like I said you’d be discarding every empirical proof of evidence that we have, you can’t actually think with this idealogy, it’s impossible, and like I said not actual.
I think everyone on this site is going to agree as well that either God exist or he does not, one of the two. You can try and tell me Both and, but like I said your still infering somehow “I’m Missing the point” when that’s not possible, I’d actually be getting the point and missing it according to you. But really, we might as well flush everything you’ve said down the drain because it means nothing because it is nothing.
Actualy, the only people who EVER “Usualy” argue or debate with me are Theist’s. Unless I take a theist veiwpoint and decide to argue it. Even Then it’s usualy single track athiest’s that argue.
I Debate everything. On every side, Because I see no Barrier and no limitation’s to the Possiblities in an infinite Universe, like you do.
Well obviously it is actual because Im thinking with it and doing a very succesful job defending it…
But if you can argue it then it must be false. Because if it wasn’t there would be no argument to begin with.
(I can do this for eternity)
Um, No they would’nt. A philosopher recognizes the Grey area’s in a subject, The Thiest who believes in only Black or White does not because logicaly to Them They can not see anything beyond Yes, No. Is, Isn’t.
So this statement is entirely false. Unless: A theist is the one makeing the reply, Which will alway’s be Black and white.
A theist only see’s about 10% of reality because the other 90% is Grey area and what if’s. So by haveing a logic that state’s is or isn’t you only limit yourself.
Of Course if you are happy with that than Good for you.
Lol, what are you debating? You have no grounds on what to debate because you don’t believe in a grounds. Please, restate what the point was, I’d like to know.
You don’t know the depths of my beliefs so how can you compare. I have much support in real world examples and logic to back up my foundation. Obviously you haven’t read enough on scientology to see the ludicrous unsupported idea behind it, however your right it does mirror much of your beliefs and should be right in line you since your actually clinically insane like all serious scientology followers.
Why do you think I have any resentment or hate toward you or your actions, that’s an irrational leap unsupported by any statement I have made to you. I merely urged you to seek help because you are obviously mentally ill and do not even deny it, so what’s stopping you seeking help? Looks like the 10 years before you snapped wasn’t enough time at the shrink, sometimes medicine can help for a short period of time to get your factuality’s back in order.
No, natural laws limit us all, the entire universe and everything known is under a set of unbreakable laws, so is God, even he who made the laws cannot go against them or he would be a liar and thus divided and thus lose his power. You yourself are bound by laws you cannot break, you admitted as much then contradict by saying that you can, yet cannot show me what laws you can break. You’re very confused which makes you even more limited then a normal healthy minded human, how interesting.
And as I mentioned many times, you can say you’re a hippo all you want but you not, and never will be no matter if you believe it or not. This delusion does not change the Truth. That’s the definition of a lie by the way, to deliberately manipulate something to your desires. So continue to say what you want and believe as you want but realize that the Truth is not moving for anyone, it is unchangeable and has existed long before you and will be here long after your gone, beat your head into the wall all you want, all your gonna get is a headache. Also realize that this is rejecting your creator as he is the author of this Absolute Truth, and to reject this is to isolate yourself from him forever after your body dies, the choice is yours and the consequences are everlasting, so pay heed.
If you are A theist I know more than you could imagine concerning your belief. What is Believed with Faith, What is believed and suported by logic, and What is in truth.
Why do you asume I am talking about me?
I was talking about those who have that belief and the belief in general. You say they are all clinicly insane and that the belief is founded on such.
Is a theaton not the same as the soul?
Is the theory of another life after this one, no different than your theory of Heaven? (Life after death weather through rebirth, ascension or tranmutation, transportation to another realm, Etc)
Is the search for knowledge the definition of insanity?
Or the refusal to believe it exist’s and is beyond your reach when in fact it is right in front of you?
Is the belief that you will Burn in eternal Hell Unless you submit to a God not more reason for insanity than say Believeing in a Peacful existance with no suffering after death?
Tell me what logic do you have for a creator (Who claims to be benevolent) who would destroy his own creation to the point of extinction?
Is the belief in existance of the self as a spiritual entity more insane then the belief in perpetual suffering to all who do not see your way (Or God’s way)?
Tell me: Does the Man who is never taught of God or Jesus, Never heard their names or know there stories, Go to Hell and suffer for eternity Simply for his ignorance?
Or does God make an exception to his own Law in this case?
Remeber those who do not except Christ Go to Hell…(And acording to your logic God can not break his own Law’s or he would cease to exist)
Is this a Fair? Or seam the action’s of a God worth worshiping?
No, I admited I am bound by laws I can not break because I do not yet understand them. NOT that I am Unable to break them.
Did you purhaps ever stop to think that maybe God can not break his law’s because they are the Universes and in fact not his?
No, I am not confused, I do not make Asumption’s. You on the otherhand DO.
Exactly,
Tell me this:
Why are you so convinced YOUR Truth is the Real Truth?
2, Or that Your Creator is MY Creator?
Yes the consequences for what you do are everlasting as you will alway’s remember your action and the result it caused. But then this is how you learn is’nt it?
What is the Point of Learning anything if you only get 30-100 years (If your lucky) In the space of infinity before reliquishing your spirit to an eternal Hell or Paridise?
In this, what is the point in living, beyond suffering?
And since you learn by suffering, What is the point in it, since Learning is pointless?
Are you getting a Vague idea of How Unrealistic and illogical the theist point of view is?
Do you ever stop to think about what you will do once you get to heaven, Beside’s Praise God night and Day as the Bible say’s you will for all eternity, Non stop. Every second every minuet of every day in: Praise God, Thou are Holy, Holy, Holy Over and Over again for eternity?
You do realise You will be a slave, Dont you? Or that you already are. Your only purpess to praise and Give God glory. No freedom of will to do what you want, No that only exist’s here in the physical. Do you really believe God will let you do whatever you want in Heaven? you will be perfect in God’s eye’s remember, Unable to make a mistake, Unable to do anything but what God deam’s so or tells you too.
Is this really what you want?..
Would you give up your Soul, your self, Your mind, Your freedom. Just to become a slave because You believe this clever plot that God loves you and Created you?
You want to know why free will exist’s? Because without it God would gain absolutly no Power. It Takes the willful Sacrifice of one’s self Freedom and Soul into servitude To create a spiritual Bond capable transfering your Essance and spiritual energy to Another.
Why Does God want or Need you to Worship him in the first place if this is not the case?
A God who does not need or desire worship to exist would not ask for such. God has Desire’s and want’s, Therfore He is not a God. Only Pride and Eago could manifest such a want or perhaps insecurity at His own Frail existance That he would require it of Lower Physical life form’s than himself.
If you would like to Debate THAT with me then first please look up the word’s Omnipitant, and Omnicent.
A being of that status requires Nothing and has No want’s nor any Desires as Nothing can be desired or wanted because all is already Had or Known.
Your God is A Metaphysical parisite, Nothing more.
