Determinism

Encode: I gave the author some time. I opened a page. I have not actually concluded anything because right now my interest is not just with the book.

Peacegirl: That’s fine, but you’re right. You cannot conclude anything.

Encode: You see, I am trying to help you see why not one person actually has the desire you are pointing to. People are still reading/studying books and drawing their own conclusions.

Peacegirl: That’s fine too. I’m not depending on anyone.

Encode: The OP already says something about the audience as you see them but why not add something else about the target audience.

Peacegirl: There is no specific target audience: only people who may be interested in a discovery that can impact the way we live in a beneficial way.

Not many definitions that are not part of an intellectual contraption in turn though, right? Here though my interest is still in the distinction you make between 1] someone who “defines” determinism given but the psychological illusion of freely defining it 2] someone who does in fact opt to define it of their own volition given an ontological understanding of how the human brain came to acquire this capacity given the evolution of biological life on planet Earth and 3] your own free will/no free will frame of mind that somehow combines both given the manner in which [in my view here and now] nature has compelled you to understand, among other things, “greater satisfaction”.

And, again, we are back to the author being able or not able to demonstrate the “for all practical purposes” workings of free will and evil in the manner in which a scientist can demonstrate the workings of a light bulb.

First of all, compelled or not, I have read many of the excerpts that you provide us, right? Or is that different from reading the actual pages in his book?

Besides, you still don’t get it. But then am I not compelled by nature to note that you are in turn compelled by nature to not get it? I can only give or not give the author the time that the laws of nature compel me to. And, in fact, you will even agree with this. But still…

But still what? Damned if I know.

It’s just that, unlike you and your author, I am more than willing to admit upfront that given “the gap” above the odds are staggeringly remote that I am even come close to grasping the whole truth here. What you refuse to broach given the real deal free will world is that your own fierce certainty about all of this is just another humdrum rendition of my OP on this thread: ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 5&t=185296

You simply have too much invested in the psychological defense mechanism that is your own and his own TOE. Again, here, the James S. Saint Syndrome.

Look, as I’ve pointed out a number of times, I know what is at stake for you here because I’ve been where you are myself. Twice. Once when I was convinced that the TOE was God, and then again when I was convinced it was Marxism.

Objectivism. The psychological balm of actually believing that you are in sync with the real me in sync with the right thing to do. Why? Because you’ve got the TOE to prove it!

Then around and around you go. Just another more or less intelligent and articulate fulminating fanatic to me.

Just like I used to be.

Twice.

Only, sure, I can only acknowledge in turn that my own current frame mind is just the third one.

Then back to “the gap” above.

From quora:

[b]“This is a quote by Arthur Schopenhauer “A man can do what he will, but not will as he will” . What is the meaning of this quotation?”

Terry Li

"Schopenhauer is commenting on the illusory nature of free will.

As human beings capable of rational thought and self-reflection, we imagine ourselves to have “free will,” which makes us distinct from inanimate objects and animals. We believe we are masters of our own destinies, because we can choose to conform our actions to our desires (we can “do what we want”).

However, if our choices are determined by our desires, then the freedom of our choices really depends on whether our desires are “free” in the first place, doesn’t it? If we follow the origin of our desires to its base level, we inevitably end up at a source of action that is external to our conscious self, i.e. something we do not choose. For example, I choose to eat this sandwich because I’m hungry. But why am I hungry? Because a lack of nutrients in my body has sent a chemical signal to my brain, triggering it to want to eat. Is my choice to eat this sandwich a free one, if it is ultimately caused by biochemical events outside of my control?

A similar analysis could be applied to any chain of action and desire a person could have. Man is not truly free because he is slave to desires he has no control over; he cannot will what he wills, and thus is no more special or different from any other object in the universe."[/b]

On the other hand, going back to “the gap” above that peacegirl simply shrugs off as irrelevant to the author’s conclusions regarding free will and evil, what scientist or philosopher has finally pinned down the explanation that all rational men are obligated to accept as the whole truth here?

I’m not argung that there isn’t one, only that if this argument does exist, it hasn’t come to my own attention. On the other hand, there are any number of members here at ILP alone who will insist that their own TOE nails it. They can’t all be right, of course, but I suspect that to a man or woman they will insist that they are.

And that’s just regarding more or less intelligent life on this planet!

Or:

Peacegirl can want to post this but she cannot want to want to post it.

Then, as someone was compelled to point out, it’s turtles all the way down.

Iambiguous: First of all, compelled or not, I have read many of the excerpts that you provide us, right? Or is that different from reading the actual pages in his book?

Peacegirl: There is no comparison trying to get a full understanding just by these posts. We are talking about a major discovery and it’s too hard for you to read three chapters?

Iambiguous: Besides, you still don’t get it. But then am I not compelled by nature to note that you are in turn compelled by nature to not get it? I can only give or not give the author the time that the laws of nature compel me to. And, in fact, you will even agree with this. But still…

But still what? Damned if I know.

It’s just that, unlike you and your author, I am more than willing to admit upfront that given “the gap” above the odds are staggeringly remote that I am even come close to grasping the whole truth here. What you refuse to broach given the real deal free will world is that your own fierce certainty about all of this is just another humdrum rendition of my OP on this thread: ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop … 5&t=185296

You simply have too much invested in the psychological defense mechanism that is your own and his own TOE. Again, here, the James S. Saint Syndrome.

Look, as I’ve pointed out a number of times, I know what is at stake for you here because I’ve been where you are myself. Twice. Once when I was convinced that the TOE was God, and then again when I was convinced it was Marxism.

Objectivism. The psychological balm of actually believing that you are in sync with the real me in sync with the right thing to do. Why? Because you’ve got the TOE to prove it!

Then around and around you go. Just another more or less intelligent and articulate fulminating fanatic to me.

Just like I used to be.

Twice.

Only, sure, I can only acknowledge in turn that my own current frame mind is just the third one.

Then back to “the gap” above.

Peacegirl: This is not about the “right” thing to do; it is only what gives you greater satisfaction doing. To repeat: There is nothing in this book that dictates what is right or wrong to do. If anyone is interested here are the chapters again.

declineandfallofallevil.com/ … APTERS.pdf

Fair enough. I guess I will just go back to what I was doing before I visited your thread then…and be none the wiser.

:confused:

I’m sorry I didn’t answer you to your satisfaction. Good luck in your endeavors.

You’re not sorry!

=;

Then what is the sense of saying one has learned anything , excusively, as uf such meant anything to anyone, to call it an acquired, sensible knowledge?

How about the feral acquisition of the knowledge of those phenomenal digs ? There is still something to be said about them at any rate, they still are faithful to their author -e- ties.

Yes I am. I’m sorry I could not get you interested.

I have learned something here. You seem to be waving the wand at wisdom…it is too soon for that.

Figuratively speaking, the dogs are still faithful, they just have different “owners”.

I conclude that you are not asking anyone to logically follow what you say. It is clear that the book will have more answers than you.

Sorry may mean something else to you. You are making an assumption about my interest(this is a break in logic).

This is the answer I gave you and it mentions nothing about interest.

If someone turns their back on you it may have nothing to do with interest - it could just as easily be something else - perhaps you are not aware of this.

So now that we appear to be in the land of the airy-fairy - let us go back to, I have read the preface. I am now going to read the introduction.

If your desire is to irritate me further, then respond to this post or the last line of this post(like so many people make a habit of with other posts).

Sigh…

It is only as easy or as hard as nature compels it to be for me. Same with the part about “greater satisfaction”. Either in the real deal free will world, I can weigh the pros and the cons of finding a greater satisfaction in reading the first three chapters, or this too is all embedded in the only possible reality nature provides for me given its immutable laws.

In my view, you’re the one that always wants it both ways. You insist I have no free will here…but somehow really I do. Why? Because somehow I am still “wrong” not to have read them.

Note others:

Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn’t there been at least one person here who did read the first three chapters? And, even then, isn’t her reaction always the same: that only in reading them and agreeing with the author’s points about about free will and evil have you really read them.

She is, after all, an objectivist in my view. You think like she does – like the author does – or you are necessarily wrong. It’s just another rendition of…

How do we know the Bible is the word of God? Because it says so in the Bible.
How do we know the Bible is true? Because it’s the word of God.

Note this in regard to, among other things, the author’s sheer speculation about the future.

Of course the author is now dead and gone. The book he wrote speaks of a time when he himself will [supposedly] never be around to either be exalted as a true visionary or mocked as a fool.

Unless, of course, you insist that his future might have been off. Instead of a thousand years from now, make it ten thousand years. Or one hundred thousand years. Or sometime between now and the time that the Sun swallows up the planet whole. In about 7.5 billion years.

Talk about the laws of matter!

Iambiguous: Note this in regard to, among other things, the author’s sheer speculation about the future.

Of course the author is now dead and gone. The book he wrote speaks of a time when he himself will [supposedly] never be around to either be exalted as a true visionary or mocked as a fool.

Peacegirl: He was a visionary because he saw the future we could have with this knowledge. You can never take that away from him. He was a humble man. I’ve posted this before: he never said this was about him personally. He said this knowledge belongs to the world and without his learning from other predecessors, he could never have made this discovery.

Iambiguous: Unless, of course, you insist that his future might have been off. Instead of a thousand years from now, make it ten thousand years. Or one hundred thousand years. Or sometime between now and the time that the Sun swallows up the planet whole. In about 7.5 billion years.

Peacegirl: I hope not. That’s why this discovery has come at an important time in our history. Let’s not throw it in a scrap heap!

The latest “intellectual contraption” from him on the KT Free Will thread.

Again, all I can offer him is the opportunity to come here and “flesh out” this assessment given the real real free will world.

Or to console him in noting that, in a no real deal free will world, pedantic thingumajigs like this are “naturally” beyond his control.

It’s all wholly derived from his genes.

Nothing new here. So, if nothing else, nature is consistent.

Note to others:

Or, perhaps, is there something new here? Something that nature compelled me to miss?

Or, okay, okay, something that, in the real deal free will world, I am totally responsible for having missed all on my own.

I just ran across this if anyone in this discussion is interested -

He is saying that “cause” (also called “affect”) is the substance of all physical reality so nothing happens that isn’t caused by something. And so the end result is total causation (or “determination”) - no room for non-causation or non-determination.

He proves it in other more lengthy posts but probably too much for this discussion.

Yes, that’s right obsrvr524, everything does have a cause. When you think about it, determinism is actually a pretty small topic that does not require much discussion - it is the topic of free will that muddies the waters and causes a conversation to drag on much longer than it needs to. It is one thing to accept determinism and something completely different to accept that no single human mind can grasp the complexity that comes with changing the course of humanity, as it stands now, based on the extremely simple concept of determinism. The fact that there are more than seven billion people is only the tip of the iceberg.

Do you see what I mean? That is why I say this is a rabbit hole.

Google dictionary sums it up nicely: noun - PHILOSOPHY > the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

Where we have to tread carefully is in the last part of the definition marked in that dark reddish color.

It’s generally harmless enough to use the word ‘determinism’ to mean the antithesis of ‘freewill’, but ‘causality’ is a better idea because it doesn’t cause any trouble. The dangerousness of the concept of ‘determinism’ is that it leads philosophers and theologists toward thinking the universe is rationally ordered and governed by some grand Will that gives it teleological design. This kind of reasoning can be used for nefarious purposes (e.g., Calvin’s predestination) and abused by those in power who think that merely because they understand all this, they are enlightened and deserve to rule as they do. Remember, it wuz ‘determined’ by god that I become king and govern as I do.

In any case the use of the word ‘determine’ as a description of how causality works, doesn’t make much sense. That is to say when used here, the word ‘determine’’ significantly alters its meaning and brings with it all kinds of suppositions; there is a god, this god is intelligent and intentional, this god is making things happen like they do either directly or through/by the ‘laws of physics’.

I remember that James addressed and resolved that issue too - but on a different board maybe 10-15 years ago (a Christian board). Something like -

  • Corrective action is the goal regardless of original cause, and
  • Judges are also caused by influence and so are no more accountable for their choice to hold a person account than that person is

Between the two he seems to be saying - “so what - we have to act anyway”.

For sure - he addressed it with me too - I caused him to, lol.