Unless you can prove any of these things, it’s no different than believing in the tooth fairy or Santa Clause. If this is what you’re using to prove we could do otherwise, once a choice has been made, I’m not interested.
Alright,
Since this is beyond you.
Let me come at it this way.
Let’s say you’re a hardcore misandrist (women who hate all men), then something different happens in your future to change your mind. Suddenly not all men are bad. And you know it for a fact.
The decisions you made in the past worked to make the decisions you made in the future. If that weren’t possible, you’d always be a misandrist.
People change their thoughts and feelings all the time Ecmandu. What does this have to do with spirits in other dimensions that alter the FACT we cannot reverse time and undo what has already been done? You are exploiting my thread to defend your wild theories; you’re not interested in this discovery at all. This I can see. It’s a waste of time for me. I hope you find others who are interested in your beliefs.
PG wrote:
“People change their thoughts and feelings all the time Ecmandu.”
It’s pure logic. If the past can’t be changed, peoples thoughts and feelings are impervious to change in the future.
How does the future even OCCUR?
For example…
We all know eye whiteness reports are unreliable.
That person just imagined a different past.
But, the argument is much deeper than that.
If a point of time can’t change, then how does motion occur?
[quote=“Ecmandu”]
PG wrote:
“People change their thoughts and feelings all the time Ecmandu.”
Ecmandu: It’s pure logic. If the past can’t be changed, peoples thoughts and feelings are impervious to change in the future.
Peacegirl: False
Peacegirl: How does the future even OCCUR?
For example…
We all know eye whiteness reports are unreliable.
That person just imagined a different past.
But, the argument is much deeper than that.
If a point of time can’t change, then how does motion occur?
Peacegirl: Who said we can’t change? Time is motion but all motion happens in the present. The past and future are thoughts in our mind only. We can make mistakes in our recall of the past. Anyway, this is way off track. This has nothing to do with the fact that we cannot reverse time and undo what has already been done. Therefore we cannot prove that a person could have chosen otherwise under the same exact conditions.
PG,
It’s not way off track. This is a philosophy board.
You just stated the past can’t change.
Do you have any idea what that means? It means all time froze forever and existence can’t exist.
Yes. Welcome to philosophy.
So… you’re saying someone can’t rewrite their past.
I’m using hard logic on you. I’m not trying to play word games with you. I’m challenging your premise.
As I’ve grown older, my interpretation of my past has changed radically. I see the whole thing differently. How is that any different than me traveling back in time and teaching my 16 year old self everything I know now?
Do you understand what I’m saying?
I’m saying… my entire past is reimagined…
If I couldn’t use my memories to work out my issues (my past is always with me) and talk to that person, I’d make no progress with that person.
That’s true of us all.
Are you purposely playing games with me? Of course as we mature we are able to look at the past with a different perspective, but what in God’s name does this have to do with the fact that we can’t reverse time and undo what was already done? Can you undo your last comment or what you did today?
Actually, I can edit my post. I won’t and that’s beside the point.
My point is that just like eye witness testimony is known to be unreliable, now we’re talking about memory. I changed my 16 year old interpretation as I grew older.
You also completely avoided the hard one I gave you.
If the past never changes, how can existence exist.
Once REAL philosophy enters the discussion, you run.
Actually, EC & Peacegirl, you’re both right. & wrong.
We can actually chrange the past when given the now entertained idea of an absolute light velocity. There is a time machine of sorts that actually disintegrates the self, and through which eternal succession can be apprehended.
The sense of self improvement through time is what’s getting in the way of realizing this.
How’s and why’s, let the ancient wisdom* solve this, as they have, and some of the fog will lift.
'*Annie Beasant, 'Ancient Wisdom ’
Ecmandu: PG,
It’s not way off track. This is a philosophy board.
You just stated the past can’t change.
Peacegirl: We cannot not do what has already been done. We can interpret what was done differently but that’s not what I’m talking about.
Do you have any idea what that means? It means all time froze forever and existence can’t exist.
Yes. Welcome to philosophy.
So… you’re saying someone can’t rewrite their past.
I’m using hard logic on you. I’m not trying to play word games with you. I’m challenging your premise.
As I’ve grown older, my interpretation of my past has changed radically. I see the whole thing differently. How is that any different than me traveling back in time and teaching my 16 year old self everything I know now?
Do you understand what I’m saying?
I’m saying… my entire past is reimagined…
If I couldn’t use my memories to work out my issues (my past is always with me) and talk to that person, I’d make no progress with that person.
That’s true of us all.
Peacegirl: Are you purposely playing games with me? Of course as we mature we are able to look at the past with a different perspective, but what in God’s name does this have to do with the fact that we can’t reverse time and undo what was already done? Can you undo your last comment or what you did today?
Ecmandu: Actually, I can edit my post. I won’t and that’s beside the point.
Peacegirl: Again, that’s NOT what I’m talking about.
Ecmandu: My point is that just like eye witness testimony is known to be unreliable, now we’re talking about memory. I changed my 16 year old interpretation as I grew older.
You also completely avoided the hard one I gave you.
If the past never changes, how can existence exist.
Once REAL philosophy enters the discussion, you run.
Peacegirl: How can the past change when all we have is the present? What already happened cannot be undone, but we can look back in hindsight and learn from it.
Peacegirl:Are you purposely playing games with me? Of course as we mature we are able to look at the past with a different perspective, but what in God’s name does this have to do with the fact that we can’t reverse time and undo what was already done? Can you undo your last comment or what you did today?
[/quote]
Ecmandu: Actually, I can edit my post. I won’t and that’s beside the point.
My point is that just like eye witness testimony is known to be unreliable, now we’re talking about memory. I changed my 16 year old interpretation as I grew older.
You also completely avoided the hard one I gave you.
If the past never changes, how can existence exist.
Once REAL philosophy enters the discussion, you run.
[/quote]
Meno: Actually, EC & Peacegirl, you’re both right. & wrong.
We can actually chrange the past when given the now entertained idea of an absolute light velocity. There is a time machine of sorts that actually disintegrates the self, and through which eternal succession can be apprehended.
The sense of self improvement through time is what’s getting in the way of realizing this.
How’s and why’s, let the ancient wisdom* solve this, as they have, and some of the fog will lift.
*Annie Beasant, 'Ancient Wisdom ’
Peacegirl; Show me a time machine that can go back to the past when all we have is the present. Time is the measurement of change from point to point. If you believe otherwise then you won’t agree with one of his premises and that’s okay. Time is not a dimension and it’s therefore impossible to visit it in a time machine [of sorts]. Therefore it’s pure science fiction. Not all science fiction turns out to be something science can actually achieve at some later date.
Let’s get down to real science. Philosophy invites the most ridiculous hypotheses without one ounce of proof. This is not what I’m interested in because it will take away from true scientific discoveries, including this one.
Free will doesn’t exist. Compatibilism makes no sense.
Brian Hines from the Church of the Churchless website
Cue iambiguous pulling out his hair…
If you were never able not to redefine free will other than as your brain compels you to, the belief that you “save” it is no less subsumed in this only possible reality.
Mary was never able not to abort Jane. John was never able not to redefine free will in order to “convince” himself that Mary is morally responsible.
To wit: Human brains are either “all in” here or science is able at last to demonstrate how when lifeless matter evolved into living matter the human brain somehow became the material, phenomenological exception.
I’d like an explanation of that myself.
And, if not supernatural – God and the No God equivalent – the part where neuroscientists or others are able to probe the human brain and establish experimentally/empirically how nonliving matter configured into living matter configured in conscious matter configured into self-conscious matter with free will.
Probing the human brain to find free will is impossible because there is nothing in the brain that can prove what does not and cannot exist. You’re grasping at straws in the hope that free will exists, which is understandable, given your definition of determinism. You keep forgetting that although will is not free, we do have the capacity to think, ponder, ruminate and contemplate to help us decide which choice is the most preferable [in the direction of greater satisfaction] otherwise contemplation, rumination, pondering, etc. would have no purpose. Humans are different from other animals in that respect which you completely ignore.
Which is? summaryly-speaking, of course.
That behind the door marked Man’s Will Is Not Free, another door exists (which was never opened) that shows us how we can prevent from coming back that for which blame and punishment was previously necessary.
This does not parse very well. Can you state with Quotes exactly what is written on the doors?
MagsJ: Which is? summaryly-speaking, of course.
Peacegirl: That behind the door marked Man’s Will Is Not Free, another door exists (which was never opened) that shows us how we can prevent from coming back that for which blame and punishment was previously necessary.
[/quote]
Sculptor: This does not parse very well. Can you state with Quotes exactly what is written on the doors?
Peacegirl: There’s nothing to read into. This only means that philosophers who unlocked the first door of determinism never got to the second door because they could not get past the implications (the corollary of no blame). This impasse has stopped further investigation as to how opening the second door and extending the corollary Thou Shall Not Blame, does the opposite of what philosophers have believed would occur which is a lessening of responsibility when in fact responsibility is increased. With this new understanding we can PREVENT from coming back that for which blame, punishment, and forgiveness were previously necessary. Why would we need to forgive when people stop doing those things that would bring forgiveness into the equation? Remember, this is about prevention, not after the fact.
Sculptor: This does not parse very well. Can you state with Quotes exactly what is written on the doors?
Peacegirl: There’s nothing to read into. This only means that philosophers who unlocked the first door of determinism never got to the second door because they could not get past the implications (the corollary of no blame). This impasse has stopped further investigation as to how opening the second door and extending the corollary Thou Shall Not Blame, does the opposite of what philosophers have believed would occur which is a lessening of responsibility when in fact responsibility is increased. With this new understanding we can PREVENT from coming back that for which blame, punishment, and forgiveness were previously necessary. Why would we need to forgive when people stop doing those things that would bring forgiveness into the equation? Remember, this is about prevention, not after the fact.
[/quote]
You do realize you’re insane, right?
Once someone realizes that they’re forgiven for everything, some will say to themselves, “awesome!” I get to do anything I want to someone without any reprecussions”
This is one thing you don’t understand TG.
People don’t hurt people because of blame or judgement.
They do it because that’s all they like to do.
Your entire posts on these threads are extremely ignorant and extremely insane.
MagsJ: Which is? summaryly-speaking, of course.
Peacegirl: That behind the door marked Man’s Will Is Not Free, another door exists (which was never opened) that shows us how we can prevent from coming back that for which blame and punishment was previously necessary.
[/quote]
Sculptor: This does not parse very well. Can you state with Quotes exactly what is written on the doors?
Peacegirl: There’s nothing to read into. This only means that philosophers who unlocked the first door of determinism never got to the second door because they could not get past the implications (the corollary of no blame). This impasse has stopped further investigation as to how opening the second door and extending the corollary to No Free Will does the opposite of what philosophers have believed would occur which is a lessening of responsibility when in fact responsibility is increased. With this new understanding we can PREVENT from coming back that for which blame, punishment, and forgiveness were previously necessary. Why would we need to forgive when people stop doing those things that would bring forgiveness into the equation? Remember, this is about prevention, not after the fact.
Ecmandu: You do realize you’re insane, right?
Once someone realizes that they’re forgiven for everything, some will say to themselves, “awesome!” I get to do anything I want to someone without any reprecussions”
This is one thing you don’t understand PG.
People don’t hurt people because of blame or judgement.
Peacegirl: I never said they did, but the knowledge they will be blamed, if caught, gives them advance justification to do whatever they plan on doing. I’m talking about a new set of environmental conditions. I’m not talking about our present environment which, if implemented, would give people a free pass to hurt others without any fear of consequences. Do you see what you’ve done? You’ve put the cart before the horse and have jumped to a premature conclusion. This is what the author urged people not to do.
Ecmandu: They do it because that’s all they like to do.
Peacegirl: That’s true, therefore the goal is to create an environment where that’s NOT what they like to do.Get it?
Ecmandu: Your entire posts on these threads are extremely ignorant and extremely insane.
Peacegirl: It’s actually your knee-jerk reaction that’s the problem here.