Discipline or Beating?

news.yahoo.com/dad-caught-video- … 28201.html

Opinions?

I’m amazed it took that long for that to show up on this forum. You guys must really not give a shit :S

While we’re on the topic of beating children, I know there are some on this forum who feel that that’s an effective way of raising good people. I recently ran into an article that suggested just the opposite (mostly for white people apparently :wink:)

[law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl%3 … 2010%2Bpdf](http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl%3F73%2BLaw%2B%26%2BContemp.%2BProbs.%2B89%2B(spring%2B2010%2Bpdf)

excerpt:

You know you could have posted it first, right? Just sayin. :slight_smile:

So do you believe he “crossed the line” FJ?

And who are other people to judge how a Man ought to raise his children and lead his household?

I thought such judgment was reserved for God?

I don’t believe in God, so I don’t pay any mind to such nonsense reservations.

'Course he crossed the line. She downloaded some music and so he whipped the shit outta her? If I found out you downloaded some music illegally would you think I crossed the line if I came to your house and whipped the shit outta you?

Why can’t other people judge how a man raises his children? What makes that activity in particular immune from judgement?

That sounds like crazy shit, certainly violative of a common-sense standard of punishment, but even pursuant to Ohio Law, you’d have a pretty tough time proving it to be a crime. From the Ohio Revised Code:

The third one is a possibility under O.R.C. § 2919.22, except it has to be excessive AND, “Creates asubstantial risk of serious physical harm to the child.” I think that the punishment was clearly excessive, but then if you look at the definitions of, “Serious physicalharm,” pursuant to O.R.C. § 2901.01 it’s hard to make a case for any of them except d.) or e.) which rely upon hypothetical (as opposed to actual) injuries in this case.

Pursuant to Ohio Law, you could probably make a pretty convincing case for number four under O.R.C. § 2919.22, given that she basically said the beatings were repetitive and unwarranted. Given the fact that she has a video of one of them, State’s obviously going to win a, “He-Said, She-Said,” case on that one.

It’s a shame he would never see prison time in his own judicial jurisdiction, if he sees it at all.

fdno.org/laws/abuse.html

But but but, you’re Flannel Jesus!

No, in fact I think you should go to everybody’s house who do “illegal” things and whip the shit outta them, including me.

I value Order, Obedience, and a Strict society. People shouldn’t do illegal things. This girl could have gotten her father, a judge, into serious trouble by downloading illegal software, musics and games. He was in the Right to administer punishment. But I don’t think others are in the position to judge him about his leniency or lack of it.

Since when did everybody turn into moral authorities in our country?

Because we live in a nation of shitty parents, in my opinion, full of divorce, failed relationships, bastard children, single mothers, perverted men, and on and on. I hear this judge became divorced too. The feminists probably got to his wife.

Fuck anybody who tells me how to raise my children, should I become so blessed by God to have any. This topic interests me a great deal, because the United States, one of the most perverted, degenerate, unholy nations in all the world, suddenly believes that divorced parents, and broken families have the “right to judge” this man on how to raise his family???

Practice what you preach, first. People who don’t have children, should shut up about this guy. People who are divorced or have been divorced, should shut up about this guy. People who have raised children successfully, and doled out punishments successfully, like my parents, should pass judgment on this guy. Regardless, I still don’t think it’s anybody else’s business what a man does with his family inside the law.

The scary thing is that “the law” is becoming so messed up by feminists and feminism, that all forms of “discipline” are becoming illegal.

I’m a Roman Catholic, in thought anyway: Spare the rod, spoil the child. And this disobedient daughter of his, downloading illegal music, needed to stop. How else are you supposed to stop a disobedient child from doing illegal things? If I had a son or daughter, and they started smoking pot or something, then I’d send them off to military school if they didn’t get the picture after a hard spanking, or a belting.

Our nation has no Discipline. And the mother was in the right, too. Feminists are confused on this example, because the mother was demonstrating the same, appropriate ruling as the father. Two parents should be in agreement on punishment, in these circumstances.

I was Disciplined as a child, and I only appreciate it all the more now as an adult. It’s a necessary “evil”.

Otherwise this is the other result of complete lack of discipline, and complete lack of male authority:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn18H3FKDV4[/youtube]

It’s a dichotomy, a father belting his daughter, or a son slapping his mother. Which do you prefer? These are your choices.

Regardless, we have a fatherless nation today.

FJ, I’m curious to know.

You mentioned “coming into my house to beat me”. What would you do to stop that girl from downloading illegal music and games? Would you ask her politely? And what if she continued it? Would you then spank her? What if the father had already told her to stop, 2 or 3 times?? What if he had punished her in the past, about this??? The video, although rather violent, does signal that he and the daughter had an issue with this beforehand. This doesn’t seem like an isolated incident. Also, she planned to video tape it. Keep that in mind. She could have just bent over as instructed, but she chose to resist, probably to show how “abused” she is on tape.

You may call this a “Devil’s Advocate” position. But, at what point does taking responsibility become Evil. I read comments that these parents ought to be “put on a wall and shot”.

When did such a perverted and Godless nation become so ready to cast stones??? I’d hate to imagine what goes on in the minds of these other types, quickly passing judgment, when they are the very cause of divorce, abuse, narcissism, hedonism, themselves.

Judge not lest ye become Judged thyself!!!

I know this was directed to FJ, but I’m going to address a few of these statements. Particularly, only the ones with which I greatly disagree.

I think it’s difficult to determine what action she would have taken had the whole thing not been videotaped. She does mention that she doesn’t want to see him do any time, or anything of that nature, so it’s tough to say what her motivations were for taping it.

I think it is clear from the video that Judge Adams, at a minimum, has some anger issues that he might consider working out. It seems apparent enough that the level of, “Discipline,” enforced was more a result of anger than of a calculated parental decision to try to encourage lawful behavior on the part of the daughter. Speaking of lawful behavior, as a Judge, he must have known that he could turn her in and, as a minor, she wouldn’t suffer any serious consequences beyond probably having some community service.

I obviously disagree with that. I’m mainly talking about things in terms of legality/illegality. I obviously have stated that the punishment violated the, “Common-Sense,” standard, but I don’t know that he should necessarily be reprimanded for that.

The reason that I commented it is a shame he would not see time in his jurisdiction is because you almost have to believe he has put people away for less.

I’m sure you said that with irony in mind, given that he is a Judge.

Maybe she blackmailed her father with the tapes, who knows? What we do know is that she sabotaged him. It reminds me of that Mel Gibson Russian ex-wife fiasco a year ago, or whatever. Do you know what I’m referring to? Anyway, his ex-wife taped his raging on the phone, to use in court against him. Yet, I see that as sabotage. It’s like setting somebody up, in a negative light, to promote your own agenda. We cannot trust people who do this.

This whole “case” would not have happened if the teenage girl had not committed illegal actions in the first place.

Everybody is missing this point. The girl is in the wrong here, first, not the dad, second. Unless you disagree with this point, then you ultimately agree with me.

I think it is clear from the video that Judge Adams’ daughter ought not have a computer, and ought to pay a penalty or fine for downloading illegal music and games onto her computer.

Not if the mother and father had tried to discipline her before about the same issue!

Because if you try and discipline your children, and it does not work, then of course the father will become “angry”, as if that is unexpected.

So “hand her over to The State Authority” is your answer?

He is the state authority. And he is her Father. There is no Moral Authority higher in these United States than a child’s Father. Feel free to disagree with me about this point, but, become prepared for a very, very loooong and lengthy argument. In fact, I challenge you to a debate about this, PM146. I challenge you that a Father’s Authority trumps all authority, even that of Religion and The State. If you disagree with this, then we can commence with the proceedings.

You, and none else, have the “right” or “authority” to trump another man’s authority, over his own family, and over his own children, except in cases of extreme legal precedence, such as, rape or murder. Outside of these, I say, a Father is completely immune from law, and impune from degenerate social scrutiny. One million divorced parents is nothing compared to the value of a man and woman who are married once, and live out a successful marriage, with successful children, with a successful family. This is my case.

There is no “Common-Sense” standard, unless you mean social scrutiny. But as I said, Judge not lest ye become Judged thyself!

Heresay, you don’t know that. And first you have to judge that what he did was ‘wrong’. I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. And if it is the case, then you have to present yourself as a Moral Authority over his decision-making and responsibility. In other words, you are claiming to “know better” than he, how to raise his daughter.

This is why I find this whole thing so shocking, and why I’m particularly adamant about this “issue”.

Where would mankind be, without a sense of humor?

Trajicomic, where you ever beaten in any similar way by a parent?

Oh and by the way, I’m downloading illiegal material as I comment this.

Come spank me ;D

Ummm, maybe this is too simple. All the dummy had to do was unplug and remove the computers from the house. That would be her punishment. Problem solved. The dude has an “I’m God” problem. There is way more to this story than the video. Now that he has been “outed”, maybe there can be some resolution for all the family members. There was mention of substance abuse, and the control freak issues as well. This isn’t about a calm rational pillar of the community. It’s about a domineering person willing to mete out over-the-top punishments repeatedly. It has nothing to do with the girl’s transgressions and everything to do with the needless violence of her punishment. This story isn’t over, it’s just beginning, but we won’t hear much more about it.

Yes, but the difference is that I know I was no “innocent” child. I did many bad/wrong/illegal/immoral things as a child. And I got away with most of it. :banana-dance:

Flannel Jesus! Somebody’s calling for you… :smiley:

At least you are aware of your own immorality. Most are not.

Removing the computer from the house wouldn’t stop the daughter’s disobedience to her father though. She probably would continue to do illegal things, as she obviously was prone to do.

What if your child was habitually doing illegal things, like underage drinking, sex, or worse, meth? Would you discipline your child, and how?

I’m afraid I don’t know anything concerning Mel Gibson, except that he is an actor.

I kind of see what you mean about taping someone, but at the same time, I would suggest that one’s ability to tape someone might serve to prove (or give one cause to conjecture) that the behavior being taped is habitual. It’s kind of like getting pulled over for speeding, most people might get pulled over for speeding, what, one in fifty times, one in a hundred? The point is, if you get ticketed for speeding, it’s probably not the first time you’ve sped in your life. The same concept applies here, I think.

I don’t know about your second statement. It really depends on Judge Adams’ psychology. It’s quite possible that, had she not gotten the belt for that, she’d have gotten it for something else. With my Dad, anyway, every letter grade less than an, “A,” was one point, and there were seven classes that got grades. For every, “Point,” I would have on my report card, and we’re talking third grade, that was one week I could not leave the house for any reason other than to go to school. Illegal? No. Excessive? Probably.

To the third statement, as I previously stated, I’m not entirely sure what the father did was illegal. However, the question as to, “Who did wrong,” I would answer by saying both of them. In my opinion, she was wrong to commit an illegal act and he was wrong to smack all Hell out of her with a belt.

I suggested that, well, not the first part, but good idea.

How do you know that Judge Adams did not try to discipline her about it previously, but in the same way? If that is the case, then physical punishment is clearly ineffective for that. Where would you stop if she kept doing it? Killing her?

Taking her computer is an OK idea.

I basically agree with your statement, especially the Religion part. I also agree that parental authority over a child should trump the State’s authority over a child, but that does nothing to eliminate, or even reduce, the State’s authority over a parent. To that extent, if you have a law which states, “x, x or x all qualify as assault and battery,” and you do any of those things, then you have committed assault and battery regardless of whether or not it is your child.

There’s nothing there to Debate, I’m afraid, because you just have. Anytime there is a law which says, “If you do x, then you have broken y law,” then you may not do x, legally.

Again, I’m not sure he broke any laws.

What if he breaks both of the kid’s arms and legs? What if he refuses to feed the kid until there is a change in behavior?

Social = Common. That’s basically what I was stating.

You’ve committed some conjecture concerning things that you don’t know, and if not, you’ve raised hypotheticals at a very minimum. Besides, it’s an irrelevant statement anyway simply because they would never permit him to do time in his own jurisdiction for reasons concerning his own safety.

As far as being a, “Moral Authroity,” is concerned. I’ll admit that I said it was crazy shit, but I also admitted to not knowing, pursuant to the laws of the State of Ohio, whether or not his behavior would constitute any kind of a crime. In any case, I’m not necessarily directly stating that I, “Know better,” than him. However, even if I were explicitly prohibited from saying, “I know better,” than him, making statements such as, ‘I would not do it that way,’ or, ‘In my view, that’s excessive,’ is not the same thing. Obviously, it’s not like I’m going into his house and challenging his parenting tactics, or anything like that.

I don’t dare to guess.

But she was breaking the law, according to her parents. That’s why she was being punished. From the video, this wasn’t about the illegal downloads per se, but rather that she had become a disobedient child, as is typical with teenagers in their rebellious stage. Even if there were a string of abuse, then she could have taped herself being beat over something trivial.

She was in the wrong though.

But who are we to judge??? Even if I agree with you and say, “yes he was over the limit”, then does that still give you or I the right to pass judgment upon him, and join in the public pitchfork party?

I kind of wonder what’s going to happen from this fallout, and whether it was worthwhile for her to put this video out. It seems like a case of revenge, to me. She puts this video out, several years later, as a method to humiliate her father, as he humiliated her in this video. What she doesn’t understand, apparently, is that she also committed a crime (if the video is true), and that both her and her father are in trouble with the law if you can count this as abuse of any kind. But, if I were on that jury, I definitely would not count that as child abuse in my opinion. I believe people that do, are feminists and other various ‘softies’. Kids do need hard discipline, and some more than others.

Americans are too scared to touch their children these days, because everything is “child abuse”. You have children like in the Dr. Phil video I posted, who have enough nerve to slap their mother in the face. My God, if I had ever slapped my mother in the face as a child, then my dad would have put me in the fucking hospital.

That is legitimate, to me. Men are the natural protectors of women. And women need men, to protect them. This is a case of a father protecting a daughter from her own illegal actions. And because of his discipline, I’m sure she turned out into a good woman in the end, rather than one who gets into drugs, sex, whoring, or other worse activities. Many parents go the liberal route, and their children get into these obscene situations, and the parents ask themselves “where did we go wrong?” when they never understood the cause or consequence for discipline.

In the video, the judge mentions that “he’s told her before”. I can only guess he’s referring to a prior incident of either warning or perhaps spanking her about downloading illegal music and games. And her mother seemed to know what was going on too, and that indicates that this happened at least once or twice prior.

I’m not certain either. I don’t think this video demonstrates “child abuse” in my opinion. But to a lot of liberals, feminists, softies and divorcees, it probably does. So the majority opinion seems to swing the other way, and people are calling for child abuse. That seems ridiculous in the sense that, even if it were true, then on what grounds are other people to judge whether this is child abuse or not?

So the State can come into a person’s house and dictate morality, on how a mother and father ought to raise their children??

Why not put cameras in every household in America? Why not have The State Thought Police have their eye on our every move. The State seems to believe it can become a better father than this Judge, here. But who is to Judge the Judge? People seem to think they can “do better” perhaps, raising a child?

Then let those who have successful families, married together, never divorced, have children, raised children successfully. Let these types step forward and offer their opinions. Rather, I see a lot of casting of stones from people (in the video comments), who maybe hypocrites.

The community should step in before the State does. A local parish, priest, or bishop should become notified of a father’s abuse, and the father ought to be censured by his community before The State is called upon. Religion ought to serve a purpose about this. After all, this is a perfect example of how a religious institution or church, can instruct a community of parents and children, how they ought to act, respect one-another, behave, and deliver punishments.

Without this medium, of religion, then it becomes black and white, and ruthless. You don’t like your mother’s cooking? Then call child custody service. The State Sexless Parent will come and steal you away, and throw you in a State Orphanage for “care”. As-if The State is a better parent than the abusive parent?

I made some conjectures based on the video evidence, what was said and done in the video.

I’m mainly surprised about people’s reactions on the video comments, and around the web. This has been put up on other various forums too. And the public is expressing “outrage”, although perhaps a superficial outrage, calling for all kinds of punishment against the father and judge. Then again, perhaps a lot of people are angry at their own father’s discipline, and want to take this out on this man publicly. I’m rather surprised that this is a big deal.

The controversy is mostly feminist, I believe. Many will see this as “child abuse” and won’t look beyond that. But I think it signals a deeper rift in the traditional values of American families, who have been built on stricter senses of Discipline and children’s respect for their elders.

So I guess it’s like this:

#1, She did do something wrong and illegal. So she was in the wrong.
#2, She may have been warned about this before, as indicated in the video.
#3, In the opinion of many, the father “crossed the line” and this constitutes “child abuse” to this group.
#4, The public passing this opinion believes they are “fit to judge” what constitutes child abuse, or not.

It’s an interesting case of “viral videos on the internet” invading the privacy of homes, whereas 10 or 20 years ago, this could not have happened. And even then, this seems like a rather normal occurrence in my opinion, in the 90s for example. I don’t think even if it had happened, that people would raise a fuss about it back then, let alone 50 or 100 years ago. It seems, in my opinion, that public tolerance for any forms of physical violence, even administered discipline in the privacy of one’s own home, is down to the lowest it can go.

America has developed an immense fear toward any type of violence. I’m surprised spanking isn’t illegal, yet, as if the feminists hadn’t already tried to make it so. :angry:

It seems you and I agree for the most part.

What else would you suggest if the father took away the computer, but the daughter continued disobeying him in other areas, like going out past her curfew?? What should he do then, if the daughter continues disobeying other trivial rules, out of spite for her computer becoming taken away?

I understand everything that you have said in the first paragraph. However, all other signs seem to point at this sort of beating being a habitual thing, and again, it seemed to be more about anger than anything else.

Personally, I think that punishments should be doled out with matter-of-fact dispassion, and, if not that, maybe a little hint of sadness stemming from disappointment. It seems pretty fair to me to say that anger begets anger, ergo, you have the daughter making this tape.

Furthermore, I don’t think the punishment actually fits what she did wrong. What I mean by that is, and maybe this will change when my kids are older, but I think the punishment should be as directly relevant to the crime as possible. Taking away the computer, for instance, is a good example, because it was the computer that was used to commit the unwanted act.

It’s also clear from what she said about not coming out with the video sooner that she had a fear for her physical well-being from her father, but clearly that fear was not enough to influence her behavior. Ultimately, there’s only so much he can do in that regard before the line is crossed. As you touched upon, we all have different lines, but I’m sure even you would agree that child beatings can hypothetically reach a point where you, personally, would consider them out of line. The argument, then, simply becomes one of where that line is drawn.

I agree that her illegal actions are her fault, and that makes her in the wrong in that sense. I don’t necessarily know if she was in the wrong to tape it. Why shouldn’t her father be accountable to it? A man has to be accountable for every act he commits, or should be accountable, whether the act be right or wrong.

Well, if video surfaced of him killing her and we called for imprisonment, would you then ask, “Who are we to judge?” At the end of the day, a judgment of the action of another is nothing more than an agreement or disagreement. There may be people out there, and I don’t imagine many, that would not have a problem whatsoever with someone killing a child that the person doing the killing deems unruly. Regardless of the issue at question, there will be conflicting opinions.

I don’t know if Texas and Ohio laws are the same in this regard, but they’re similar, and as a Judge, he should reasonably be expected to know that a case for child abuse could be made over this. I suppose that’s why there is so much hostility and media sensationalism with respect to this story, as a Judge, you are expected to not just be on the right side of the law, but to clearly and undoubtedly be on the right side of the law.

The applicable Statute of Limitations would be up on her crime, easily, so she could not be prosecuted. Secondly, she was sixteen at the time, and it was either a high-level misdemeanor or low-level felony, so she would not be tried as an adult for this. In any event, there is no possible way for her to be in trouble with the law as a result of this video.

In the State of Texas, I’m sure he’ll find at least one sympathetic juror, remember, “It only takes one to hang.”

Besides, he would be found, “Not Guilty,” at least under Ohio Law, if the verdict returned was based strictly on the law. After reading that part of the Ohio Revised Code a few more times, I’ve actually changed my mind and decided you could not get him for child abuse for that. It would have to be child abuse, too, any Statute of Limitations for ordinary domestic violence will already have passed.

That sounds about right. I’m not personally opposed to corporal punishment, though I think it is advisable to know the law and make sure you stay on the right side of the law. I’ve had no reason to do this yet, but if I tan either of my kids’ asses, it’ll be with an open hand, as opposed to a belt or other instrument.

That’s what I was getting at. What I meant was, what if the last time she had done this exact thing the punishment was also belt lashings, then clearly it is an ineffctive punishment for the offense.

To the extent that YouTube is social media, they are free to say what they want about it. Furthermore, she did nothing illegal by taping or posting it. Personally, if Judge Adams were to see any kind of trial for this thing, I would demand a bench trial were I in his place. You’re going to want a well-educated Judge who is able to remove subjective bias from his decision-making and come to a conclusion based upon the letter of the law with respect to what concerns child abuse as opposed to an outraged public that may not be able to understand that Judge Adams (Again, based on Ohio law) probably went to the outermost limits of the law without actually breaking it.

The State has been able to do that for quite some time. They have to have probable cause (which I think the vido would at least constitute that much) in order to get the warrant to get into the house, but yes, the State can do that within the course and scope of law enforcement.

They may be hypocrites, but they’re anonymous hypocrites. Anonymity is usually going to make the expression of a particular view more extreme than it otherwise would be, regardless of what side you are on. Further, I doubt if Judge Adams cares too much what they are saying about him on YouTube…at this point.

I understand your point, but not everyone is Religious. If you told me I was either going to have a Priest come and talk to me about parenting for three hours or CPS was going to conduct an inspection, give me CPS every time. Besides, you mentioned that you think it is hypocritical for someone who has never fathered to opine about fathering, so how could you justify a Catholic Priest (most of whom do not have kids and are not permitted to) telling people how to parent?

There is a good bit of abuse that takes place in foster homes, that’s true.

As stated, it’s really only because he’s a Judge and gets held, in the public eye, to stay inside of the law to a higher standard. I see kids on the Local News every other day whose parent(s) has beaten them more severly than this, but you won’t see that on the National News because there is nothing to make it sensational. In that sense, the outrage is superficial because it is directed at someone that people believe should be held to a high standard. Were it not a Judge involved, there would be a few headshakes in front of computer screens and that’s about it.

Assuming the State presses charges, (and they may not) and Adams does not request a bench trial,
the public will be deemed, “Fit to Judge,” twelve of them, anyway.

You could be right, although, I think the video would have raised a few eyebrows in the 90’s. I would say, had it been the 90’s and she taped the video, it might get a story on the Local News, but I doubt it would be a national headline.

Mainly, though I suspect we draw a different line for what legally constitutes child abuse. In any case, I don’t think this is it, but I think it’s about as close as you can get without being there.

It really depends on the Rule broken because, as I stated, I prefer to develop a punishment that clearly pertains to the crime.

There are other effective methods of punishments, besides beating. But, she seem to take it rather well, so I expect this is probably not her first time (although she is a bit on the older side). When punishing, it’s important to use the shit-sandwich method, or the family could alienate the child (she could run away, etc.). The parents have to explain why they have to do it, do it, and then explain again why they had to do it, followed by ample reassurances that they still love the child.

I agree, the best attitude for this is “I-hate-to-do-it-but-I-must”, or “it-hurts-me-just-as-much-as-it-does-you”. I think if mother stepped in a bit more in the beginning, the father might not have this hard of a time of gaining compliance form her.

I don’t know if I’m alone on this, but I see Trajic’s posts as full of contradictions (like, for example, the contradiction of saying we’re not allowed to judge him but he’s allowed to judge her) and extreme unwavering faith. The inability to understand logic, combined with the unwillingness to change ones’ beliefs, makes debate pointless. I actually posted a link about why physical abuse actually make children behave worse, so the fact that he’s continuing to defend physical abuse must mean that that abuse is not for the purpose of making children better. The only purpose I can see, if it’s not teaching a lesson, is, to be blunt, torture. Just pointless pain inflicted on your child, that’s torture. But of course he wouldn’t want to ever admit to that…

But, I’m not gonna debate Trajic. Like I said, the inability to understand logic, combined with the unwillingness to change ones’ beliefs, makes debate pointless. Talking to him any more would be about as useful as walking in circles, and much much more frustrating.

I was “beaten” as a child, and I am very thankful for it. I needed discipline, since I was an unruly child. After disciplined children grow up, and become parents themselves, they realize the necessity and benefit of discipline.

I also plan to “beat” my children, should I have any someday, if they too need disciplined. Nobody is going to stop me by getting in the way of my authority to my children.

And I do not mean “black eyes and put in hospital”, but nobody has the right to judge me anyway.

Are you God? Who are you to Judge??