Disconnected

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
1

Hello Ilpites,

I was celebrating a very special occassion recently. We hosted a large party and hired a DJ that my family would enjoy… That is, the DJ played only Spanish music: Cumbia, Rancheras, Merengue, Salsa, etc. I had not heard this music in several years and so I was taken aback at how well I remembered these songs. Suddenly, I felt so completely and utterly disconnected from my family, from my culture, and from my roots. The dancing, the singing, the jokes, the language… it infected me. I felt overwhelmed with joy–pure joy. Then I was struck by an awful dread: none of my ‘everyday’ friends could enjoy this with me–most of my ‘everyday’ friends are White, the few that are of my own culture do not like the old music, prefer Heavy Metal or enjoy “rap *coughmusiccough” Sure, I can explain the beauty of various songs, but could they really appreciate it? Would they enjoy it? Would they respond to the music instinctually? Then I realized that none of my family would enjoy Pantera’s “Walk” or even an 1980’s hit like Echo And The Bunnymen’s “Lips Like Sugar”.

I felt disconnected with my peers and my family and even this world. Buyt I considered that there must be at least a few of you out there that may understand the disconnected feeling I now carry with me everywhere… I cannot identify if the feeling is only surface deep or if it is ingrained farther within my soul… I am in between worlds. Perhaps I have one foot planted in each dimension and I am trying to figure out my next step.

Where do I go? Where do we go?

My hope is to discuss the social impacts caused by this disconnection.

-Thirst

So you get an idea of the music (rancheras):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oBiKZoASFs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYXOHHEf0bc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=&mode=related&v=lrENrxyRj5Q

2

here’s the trick…

you are you.

period.

everyone else is everyone else.

period.

if you want to be with everyone else, be with them, do not become them, nor will they become you.

-Imp

3

Alienation occurs when two dissimilar elements mingle.

On an intellectual level one would feel out of place amongst apes, like Tarzan did.
They provided social interaction, warmth and love to him but he could not ‘connect’ with them beyond a certain level.
They were not on his level.
He sought his own kind.

Isolation is the burden of every mind, all the more so for the gifted or different.

Then one feels like another species amongst lesser beings.
The opposite is also possible, where one feels like he’s amongst better beings but here the accompanying feeling is one of wonderment and admiration and not so much that of loneliness - this last in mostly a consequence of insecurity and poor self-image.

I suspect that the popularity of some of these forums is owed to the fact that many find it difficult to connect with those in their immediate environment beyond a certain level, or because some form of inhibition is present in expressing self honestly, directly and completely.

In my experience the pressures of remaining civil and polite, and so acceptable to the whole, forces a superficial human interaction, often falling into mundane parroting and repetitive linguistic grooming which remains superficial and so non-confrontational or challenging.

It has been a little disappointing for me to discover that even in such impersonal, anonymous venues, as internet forums, the same social pressures work their effect on mind’s who fall into patterns of inhibition and restraint.
Few have opinions that do not mirror their social and cultural influences and those that do are reluctant to openly display them, fearing being labeled or isolated by group dynamics and not wanting to expose many of the most intimate parts of themselves which confront political-correctness and modern western sensibilities.

4

Those who deserve your words in the first place would.

5

Data

…most of my friends are white…

Data

Spanish people, the language, the instruments, most of the dances, and much of the music are white people creations. All Hispanic culture is derivative of white European culture.

Portent

All people are capable of enjoying anything and once this is learned more fun will be had.

6

That’s some damn fine portenting…

7

Alienation is an, um, unalienable part of the human condition. #-o We all strive on some level to connect with other people, as humans are social animals. But our need for individuality and our innate self awareness drives a wedge between us. This is exacerbated by the complexity of our society and the divisions and specializations that arise from that complexity.

It’s strange the way certain parts of us or traits we have can be compartmentalized. I have certain things in common with some of my aquaintances but their eyes just glaze over when I discuss my main passions (cheifly audio/video gear and philosophy). On some level I obviously connect with them but they can’t ‘get’ me on another level. And presumably the same works in reverse.

8

ah, alienation, another theme in Marx. In fact,
he may be called the alienation author.
He felt people were alienated by their work from
their real self. Alienation is a common human theme although
surprisingly enough, not before the modern age. You didn’t get
alienation themes in ancient times or medieval times, or even
renaissance times, but from about 1800 on, or from
the beginning of the industrial revolution. connect the dots.

Kropotkin

9

I’ll have to disagree in part, Peter. I think alienation is more of an offshoot of existential angst/dread, although changes in social structures wrought by the Industrial Revolution almost certainly made it worse.

10

I can relate.

I’m not an american(even thought my passaport says otherwise), nor am I albanian anymore. I cannot return to my country because I’ve become soft, and am considered an asshole and insensitive here. :laughing:
What you and I both share is an angle on society. Let me explain it this way. A person with one eye cannot see depth. He needs two eyes to make an angle and see distance. The same goes with cultures. Once you’ve been exposed to two different cultures it becomes easier to see bullshit for what it is.

Objectively speaking, “Walk” is a great song.

11

Is that a good thing?
And, does that include homosexuality?

-Thirst

12

i have always felt this way, always, from the first memory i have to the last, lol, does this make you feel a little less disconnected.

13

I was hoping to discuss the social consequences of this feeling…
Not really about me, though I use my experience in hopes of facilitating understanding and stirring thought…

-Thirst

14

Hi thirst,

The social consequences of finding out you’re a square peg in a world of round holes? Welcome to the club. I can’t relate to the Spanish/Anglo dichotomies, but For many, there comes a a point, a realization that they no longer identify with their cultural upbringing and at the same time, are not part of their everyday culture either. The only answer I can see is to find the socially correct “lubrication” to move in both worlds. You don’t “belong”? Yes you do. To both worlds. There is an implied social construct that we must, or should be one way or the other. Remember an earlier thread where there was a demand for “consistency”? I was ripped up for the lack thereof? It was almost amusing. We are multi-perspective creatures and there is nothing consistent about us. Consistency is the expectation of others and apart from being acceptable in a social setting, being of multiple worlds is who we are. Don’t let other’s expectations of you become your view of yourself. You have a rich heritage and a perspective that those raised in a monculture will never understand. Rejoice in it. Revel in it. Your door to the world is much wider than most will ever know. Be who you are, and if they don’t understand, it’s their problem.

15

I may be going the wrong direction, but it appears to me that a number of you are missing thirst’s point.

I can share this feeling of disconnection.

I love and admire my Sicilian/Italian heritage. The music, the culture, the architecture, the language … but who do I share it with that understands?

No one. They don’t feel it at the same level, they don’t seem to look inside themselves for the root of it, in the same manner that I do. None of my friends are of the heritage. Speak of it, and they couldn’t care less, they are more interested in Nascar, rap, McDonalds, Abercrombie, and Brittany Spears …

Maybe thirst, you could consider a trip home? That’s my motivation for going back, there’s nothing here, no one here, with whom this can be shared …

Just a thought brother.

16

Mas and thirst,

Can you see that alienation is almost a foregone conclusion for those who question their world, and more importantly, themselves? Those who reject the parent tape set out on a journey of alienation. Is a Spanish or Italian culture “better” than being an American? Not really. Just different.
I suppose one can say my “roots” are here, or there, and I can’t share that with anyone, but I question whether that is an actuality or perhaps a bit of nostalgia?

I’ve lived the better portion of my life in the culture I was raised in, but the alienation, the not belonging started in my teen years. It has never changed. I identify with little of the culture I grew up in, and I am equally alienated from from what I see in this country. So who am I? Where can I stand? Where is “home”? And the answer was provided earlier by Imp. Home is wherever I am. I can play the Idaho redneck. I know how to conduct myself at a New York cocktail party. I am neither of those personas. I’m just me, and while I’m not much, at least I’m content with that.

Perhaps it is just old age and having gotten used to aloneness, but like many others, I’ve found a few kindred souls here and there, now and then, and that has to be enough. You can always go over the next hill, but in the end, all you will find is yourself.

17

Societal Impact of disconnection? Straight from my from my Straussian prof:

De Toqueville argued in “Democracy in America” that one of the reasons Democracy works in America is the number of people who identify themselves by groups. What, exactly, does this sort of ‘connection’ offer in terms of societal impact?

Well, for a democracy to function you need individual liberty and equality. Yet, liberty can lead to a disconnect in the sense that one becomes the steward for his or her life, inherent in freedom is the danger of too many choices. Nothing can remain meaningful without some form of direction, groups can provide this direction.

Equality, in a Democratic society, does not just apply to individuals, eventually it applies to values as well. There is no cultural pressure to adhere to some values over others if the culture is subsumed by relativism. The result is a world where people truly believe that one thing is neither worse nor better than some counterpart… it is merely different.
Yet, groups congeal over values and norms. Belonging to a group carries with it adherence to the norms and values accepted by that group and avoidance of those norms and values anathema to said group.

I might be mistaken, but Alienation is, truly, the feeling of separation from the self and the other. This is not, as the question was originally posed, Disconnection. Disconnection, as Thirst poses it, is separation between the self and that which the self identifies with but cannot, for whatever reason, fully integrate with.

Alienation has no societal impact, per se, because a number of alienated beings do not comprise a society in any sense. Autonomous individuals concerned only with themselves is not a society.

Disconnected individuals are adrift, but at least they recognize the gulf between them and those they identify with, at least to some degree.

The problem, as you asked, posed by a large number of seemingly disconnected people is that there is the risk they may eventually tire of being disconnected, and join whatever groups that might have them. This could be gangs, extremist groups… any number of groups that offer at least negative values for its members to subscribe to.

This is, in part, based upon my understanding, how Leo Strauss explains the fall of the Weimar Republic and the rise of Nazi Germany.

18

Certainly there is truth to that, but again, you are missing a point I feel.

When I go to Bronx, to be with the Napoli side of the family, the feeling of disconnection is moved outside of that family unit, but it’s still there. You don’t necessarily become reconnected.

You have to view this from the perspective of the individual, and the culture that necessarily identifies that person. There is always the side of identity that is decided for you by outside perception. Not being able to associate with that identity given to you, can cause disconnection also.

At least in my opinion.

19

Why dont you physically attack some of your friends the next time your together and see what comes out of it ? You never know , maybe a good brawl will open doors , present some answers , good luck