Discuss Abortion IF You Know A Person Begins At Conception

This thread is to discuss all relevant aspects of abortion.

However, there is one prerequisite to participating in this discussion: you must have already accepted that a human being, a person, begins to live at conception.

That is a given to participate in this discussion.

No references to “a human being doesn’t begin at conception”, or a human being at conception isn’t “fully” human, or a pre-natal human being “isn’t a person”, or anything of the like, is acceptable here in this thread.

You must know that a human being, a person, begins at conception, no ifs, ands or buts, and you’re ready to get on with the discussion from there.

By making this discussion-entry requirement we can avoid the usual ad nauseum progress-blocking diversions associated with unacceptance of the discussion-participation requirement and thereby pursue the meaningfulness of the matter that awaits us on the acceptance side of this discussion.

So please be respectful of this discussion’s participation requirement.

It doesn’t matter what your position: pro-choice, pro-abortion, pro-life, anti-abortion or whatever you want to call your position.

All that matters is that you know that a human being, a person, begins to live at conception, and you want to discuss all of the ramifications of abortion from that point of acceptance on.

So please, no diversions of doubt of any kind about whether a human being, a person, begins to live at conception. Please save those diversions for a different and more appropriate thread.

And moderators, if indeed it is acceptable for me to make this discussion requirement request, and if it is within the parameters of your duties at this forum, I would be thankful for your proactive assistance in preventing this thread from being hijacked by those who would succumb to the temptation to violate the discussion requirement.


I will begin.

I am pro-choice, or, perhaps more accurately, pro-abortion.

And that is my position, even though I know that a human being, a person, begins to live at conception.

I recognize that for me to choose abortion for reasons of birth control, convenience, economics, etc., means that should I commit abortion, I will be killing someone.

I realize that many (including my own mom) would even call that murder.

But I live with that.

There are reasons for my perspective on this matter, and why I would choose to kill an innocent person.

I want to hear from those who share my perspective, and I want to hear why that is your perspective.

I also want to hear from those of you who would call yourselves anti-abortion or pro-life, and I want to hear why that is your perspective.

I want to have a searing, courageous emotionally honest discussion on this matter about why we have chosen the way we have chosen in the matter knowing that a person begins to live at conception, and what, if anything, can be done to resolve the obvious conflicts inherent in this issue.

I thank you in advance, not only for your respectful participation, but for respecting the discussion requirement of this thread.

Here is sort of the major essay on the subject where ‘how can you defend abortion if you accept that life begins at conception’:

Judith Jarvis Thomson: A Defense of Abortion

From Philosophy & Public Affairs, Vol. 1, no. 1 (Fall 1971).

(Reprinted in “Intervention and Reflection: Basic Issues in Medical Ethics,” 5th ed., ed. Ronald Munson (Belmont; Wadsworth 1996). pp 69-80.)

Most opposition to abortion relies on the premise that the fetus is a human being, a person, from the moment of conception. The premise is argued for, but, as I think, not well. Take, for example, the most common argument. We are asked to notice that the development of a human being from conception through birth into childhood is continuous; then it is said that to draw a line, to choose a point in this development and say “before this point the thing is not a person, after this point it is a person” is to make an arbitrary choice, a choice for which in the nature of things no good reason can be given. It is concluded that the fetus is. or anyway that we had better say it is, a person from the moment of conception. But this conclusion does not follow. Similar things might be said about the development of an acorn into an oak trees, and it does not follow that acorns are oak trees, or that we had better say they are. Arguments of this form are sometimes called “slippery slope arguments”–the phrase is perhaps self-explanatory–and it is dismaying that opponents of abortion rely on them so heavily and uncritically.

I am inclined to agree, however, that the prospects for “drawing a line” in the development of the fetus look dim. I am inclined to think also that we shall probably have to agree that the fetus has already become a human person well before birth. Indeed, it comes as a surprise when one first learns how early in its life it begins to acquire human characteristics. By the tenth week, for example, it already has a face, arms and less, fingers and toes; it has internal organs, and brain activity is detectable. On the other hand, I think that the premise is false, that the fetus is not a person from the moment of conception. A newly fertilized ovum, a newly implanted clump of cells, is no more a person than an acorn is an oak tree. But I shall not discuss any of this. For it seems to me to be of great interest to ask what happens if, for the sake of argument, we allow the premise. How, precisely, are we supposed to get from there to the conclusion that abortion is morally impermissible? Opponents of abortion commonly spend most of their time establishing that the fetus is a person, and hardly anytime explaining the step from there to the impermissibility of abortion. Perhaps they think the step too simple and obvious to require much comment. Or perhaps instead they are simply being economical in argument. Many of those who defend abortion rely on the premise that the fetus is not a person, but only a bit of tissue that will become a person at birth; and why pay out more arguments than you have to? Whatever the explanation, I suggest that the step they take is neither easy nor obvious, that it calls for closer examination than it is commonly given, and that when we do give it this closer examination we shall feel inclined to reject it.

I propose, then, that we grant that the fetus is a person from the moment of conception. How does the argument go from here? Something like this, I take it. Every person has a right to life. So the fetus has a right to life. No doubt the mother has a right to decide what shall happen in and to her body; everyone would grant that. But surely a person’s right to life is stronger and more stringent than the mother’s right to decide what happens in and to her body, and so outweighs it. So the fetus may not be killed; an abortion may not be performed.

It sounds plausible. But now let me ask you to imagine this. You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist’s circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. The director of the hospital now tells you, “Look, we’re sorry the Society of Music Lovers did this to you–we would never have permitted it if we had known. But still, they did it, and the violinist is now plugged into you. To unplug you would be to kill him. But never mind, it’s only for nine months. By then he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you.” Is it morally incumbent on you to accede to this situation? No doubt it would be very nice of you if you did, a great kindness. But do you have to accede to it? What if it were not nine months, but nine years? Or longer still? What if the director of the hospital says. “Tough luck. I agree. but now you’ve got to stay in bed, with the violinist plugged into you, for the rest of your life. Because remember this. All persons have a right to life, and violinists are persons. Granted you have a right to decide what happens in and to your body, but a person’s right to life outweighs your right to decide what happens in and to your body. So you cannot ever be unplugged from him.” I imagine you would regard this as outrageous, which suggests that something really is wrong with that plausible-sounding argument I mentioned a moment ago.

In this case, of course, you were kidnapped, you didn’t volunteer for the operation that plugged the violinist into your kidneys. Can those who oppose abortion on the ground I mentioned make an exception for a pregnancy due to rape? Certainly. They can say that persons have a right to life only if they didn’t come into existence because of rape; or they can say that all persons have a right to life, but that some have less of a right to life than others, in particular, that those who came into existence because of rape have less. But these statements have a rather unpleasant sound. Surely the question of whether you have a right to life at all, or how much of it you have, shouldn’t turn on the question of whether or not you are a product of a rape. And in fact the people who oppose abortion on the ground I mentioned do not make this distinction, and hence do not make an exception in case of rape.

Nor do they make an exception for a case in which the mother has to spend the nine months of her pregnancy in bed. They would agree that would be a great pity, and hard on the mother; but all the same, all persons have a right to life, the fetus is a person, and so on. I suspect, in fact, that they would not make an exception for a case in which, miraculously enough, the pregnancy went on for nine years, or even the rest of the mother’s life.

Some won’t even make an exception for a case in which continuation of the pregnancy is likely to shorten the mother’s life, they regard abortion as impermissible even to save the mother’s life. Such cases are nowadays very rare, and many opponents of abortion do not accept this extreme view. All the same, it is a good place to begin: a number of points of interest come out in respect to it.

Let us call the view that abortion is impermissible even to save the mother’s life “the extreme view.” I want to suggest first that it does not issue from the argument I mentioned earlier without the addition of some fairly powerful premises. Suppose a woman has become pregnant, and now learns that she has a cardiac condition such that she will die if she carries the baby to term. What may be done for her? The fetus, being to life, but as the mother is a person too, so has she a right to life. Presumably they have an equal right to life. How is it supposed to come out that an abortion may not be performed? If mother and child have an equal right to life, shouldn’t we perhaps flip a coin? Or should we add to the mother’s right to life her right to decide what happens in and to her body, which everybody seems to be ready to grant–the sum of her rights now outweighing the fetus’s right to life?

The most familiar argument here is the following. We are told that performing the abortion would he directly killings the child, whereas doing nothing would not be killing the mother, but only letting her die. Moreover, in killing the child, one would be killing an innocent person, for the child has committed no crime, and is not aiming at his mother’s death. And then there are a variety of ways in which this might be continued. (1) But as directly killing an innocent person is always and absolutely impermissible, an abortion may not be performed. Or, (2) as directly killing an innocent person is murder, and murder is always and absolutely impermissible, an abortion may not be performed. Or, (3) as one’s duty to refrain from directly killing an innocent person is more stringent than one’s duty to keep a person from dying, an abortion may not be performed. Or, (4) if one’s only options are directly killing an innocent person or letting a person die, one must prefer letting the person die, and thus an abortion may not be performed.

Some people seem to have thought that these are not further premises which must be added if the conclusion is to be reached, but that they follow from the very fact that an innocent person has a right to life. But this seems to me to be a mistake, and perhaps the simplest way to show this is to bring out that while we must certainly grant that innocent persons have a right to life, the theses in (1) through (4) are all false. Take (2), for example. If directly killing an innocent person is murder, and thus is impermissible, then the mother’s directly killing the innocent person inside her is murder, and thus is impermissible. But it cannot seriously be thought to be murder if the mother performs an abortion on herself to save her life. It cannot seriously be said that she must refrain, that she must sit passively by and wait for her death. Let us look again at the case of you and the violinist There you are, in bed with the violinist, and the director of the hospital says to you, “It’s all most distressing, and I deeply sympathize, but you see this is putting an additional strain on your kidneys, and you’ll be dead within the month. But you have to stay where you are all the same. because unplugging you would be directly killing an innocent violinist, and that’s murder, and that’s impermissible.” If anything in the world is true, it is that you do not commit murder, you do not do what is impermissible, if you reach around to your back and unplug yourself from that violinist to save your life.

The main focus of attention in writings on abortion has been on what a third party may or may not do in answer to a request from a woman for an abortion. This is in a way understandable. Things being as they are, there isn’t much a woman can safely do to abort herself. So the question asked is what a third party may do, and what the mother may do, if it is mentioned at all, if deduced, almost as an afterthought, from what it is concluded that third parties may do. But it seems to me that to treat the matter in this way is to refuse to grant to the mother that very status of person which is so firmly insisted on for the fetus. For we cannot simply read off what a person may do from what a third party may do. Suppose you filed yourself trapped in a tiny house with a growing child. I mean a very tiny house, and a rapidly growing child–you are already up against the wall of the house and in a few minutes you’ll be crushed to death. The child on the other hand won’t be crushed to death; if nothing is done to stop him from growing he’ll be hurt, but in the end he’ll simply burst open the house and walk out a free man. Now I could well understand it if a bystander were to say. “There’s nothing we can do for you. We cannot choose between your life and his, we cannot be the ones to decide who is to live, we cannot intervene.” But it cannot be concluded that you too can do nothing, that you cannot attack it to save your life. However innocent the child may be, you do not have to wait passively while it crushes you to death Perhaps a pregnant woman is vaguely felt to have the status of house, to which we don’t allow the right of self-defense. But if the woman houses the child, it should be remembered that she is a person who houses it.

I should perhaps stop to say explicitly that I am not claiming that people have a right to do anything whatever to save their lives. I think, rather, that there are drastic limits to the right of self-defense. If someone threatens you with death unless you torture someone else to death, I think you have not the right, even to save your life, to do so. But the case under consideration here is very different. In our case there are only two people involved, one whose life is threatened, and one who threatens it. Both are innocent: the one who is threatened is not threatened because of any fault, the one who threatens does not threaten because of any fault. For this reason we may feel that we bystanders cannot interfere. But the person threatened can.

In sum, a woman surely can defend her life against the threat to it posed by the unborn child, even if doing so involves its death. And this shows not merely that the theses in (1) through (4) are false; it shows also that the extreme view of abortion is false, and so we need not canvass any other possible ways of arriving at it from the argument I mentioned at the outset.

The extreme view could of course be weakened to say that while abortion is permissible to save the mother’s life, it may not be performed by a third party, but only by the mother herself. But this cannot be right either. For what we have to keep in mind is that the mother and the unborn child are not like two tenants in a small house which has, by an unfortunate mistake, been rented to both: the mother owns the house. The fact that she does adds to the offensiveness of deducing that the mother can do nothing from the supposition that third parties can do nothing. But it does more than this: it casts a bright light on the supposition that third parties can do nothing. Certainly it lets us see that a third party who says “I cannot choose between you” is fooling himself if he thinks this is impartiality. If Jones has found and fastened on a certain coat, which he needs to keep him from freezing, but which Smith also needs to keep him from freezing, then it is not impartiality that says “I cannot choose between you” when Smith owns the coat. Women have said again and again “This body is my body!” and they have reason to feel angry, reason to feel that it has been like shouting into the wind. Smith, after all, is hardly likely to bless us if we say to him, “Of course it’s your coat, anybody would grant that it is. But no one may choose between you and Jones who is to have it.”

We should really ask what it is that says “no one may choose” in the face of the fact that the body that houses the child is the mother’s body. It may be simply a failure to appreciate this fact. But it may be something more interesting, namely the sense that one has a right to refuse to lay hands on people, even where it would be just and fair to do so, even where justice seems to require that somebody do so. Thus justice might call for somebody to get Smith’s coat back from Jones, and yet you have a right to refuse to be the one to lay hands on Jones, a right to refuse to do physical violence to him. This, I think, must be granted. But then what should be said is not “no one may choose,” but only “I cannot choose,” and indeed not even this, but “I will not act,” leaving it open that somebody else can or should, and in particular that anyone in a position of authority, with the job of securing people’s rights, both can and should. So this is no difficulty. I have not been arguing that any given third party must accede to the mother’s request that he perform an abortion to save her life, but only that he may.

I suppose that in some views of human life the mother’s body is only on loan to her, the loan not being one which gives her any prior claim to it. One who held this view might well think it impartiality to say “I cannot choose.” But I shall simply ignore this possibility. My own view is that if a human being has any just, prior claim to anything at all, he has a just, prior claim to his own body. And perhaps this needn’t be argued for here anyway, since, as I mentioned, the arguments against abortion we are looking at do grant that the woman has a right to decide what happens in and to her body. But although they do grant it, I have tried to show that they do not take seriously what is done in granting it. I suggest the same thing will reappear even more clearly when we turn away from cases in which the mother’s life is at stake, and attend, as I propose we now do, to the vastly more common cases in which a woman wants an abortion for some less weighty reason than preserving her own life.

Where the mother s life is not at stake, the argument I mentioned at the outset seems to have a much stronger pull. “Everyone has a right to life, so the unborn person has a right to life.” And isn’t the child’s right to life weightier than anything other than the mother’s own right to life, which she might put forward as ground for an abortion?

This argument treats the right to life as if it were unproblematic. It is not, and this seems to me to be precisely the source of the mistake.

For we should now, at long last, ask what it comes to, to have a right to life. In some views having a right to life includes having a right to be given at least the bare minimum one needs for continued life. But suppose that what in fact IS the bare minimum a man needs for continued life is something he has no right at all to be given? If I am sick unto death, and the only thing that will save my life is the touch of Henry Fonda’s cool hand on my fevered brow. then all the same, I have no right to be given the touch of Henry Fonda’s cool hand on my fevered brow. It would be frightfully nice of him to fly in from the West Coast to provide it. It would be less nice, though no doubt well meant, if my friends flew out to the West coast and brought Henry Fonda back with them. But I have no right at all against anybody that he should do this for me. Or again, to return to the story I told earlier, the fact that for continued life the violinist needs the continued use of your kidneys does not establish that he has a right to be given the continued use of your kidneys. He certainly has no right against you that you should give him continued use of your kidneys. For nobody has any right to use your kidneys unless you give him this right–if you do allow him to go on using your kidneys, this is a kindness on your part, and not something he can claim from you as his due. Nor has he any right against anybody else that they should give him continued use of your kidneys. Certainly he had no right against the Society of Music Lovers that they should plug him into you in the first place. And if you now start to unplug yourself, having learned that you will otherwise have to spend nine years in bed with him, there is nobody in the world who must try to prevent you, in order to see to it that he is given some thing he has a right to be given.

Some people are rather stricter about the right to life. In their view, it does not include the right to be given anything, but amounts to, and only to, the right not to be killed by anybody. But here a related difficulty arises. If everybody is to refrain from killing that violinist, then everybody must refrain from doing a great many different sorts of things. Everybody must refrain from slitting his throat, everybody must refrain from shooting him–and everybody must refrain from unplugging you from him. But does he have a right against everybody that they shall refrain from unplugging you frolic him? To refrain from doing this is to allow him to continue to use your kidneys. It could be argued that he has a right against us that we should allow him to continue to use your kidneys. That is, while he had no right against us that we should give him the use of your kidneys, it might be argued that he anyway has a right against us that we shall not now intervene and deprive him Of the use of your kidneys. I shall come back to third-party interventions later. But certainly the violinist has no right against you that you shall allow him to continue to use your kidneys. As I said, if you do allow him to use them, it is a kindness on your part, and not something you owe him.

The difficulty I point to here is not peculiar to the right of life. It reappears in connection with all the other natural rights, and it is something which an adequate account of rights must deal with. For present purposes it is enough just to draw attention to it. But I would stress that I am not arguing that people do not have a right to life–quite to the contrary, it seems to me that the primary control we must place on the acceptability of an account of rights is that it should turn out in that account to be a truth that all persons have a right to life. I am arguing only that having a right to life does not guarantee having either a right to be given the use of or a right to be allowed continued use of another person s body–even if one needs it for life itself. So the right to life will not serve the opponents of abortion in the very simple and clear way in which they seem to have thought it would.

There is another way to bring out the difficulty. In the most ordinary sort of case, to deprive someone of what he has a right to is to treat him unjustly. Suppose a boy and his small brother are jointly given a box of chocolates for Christmas. If the older boy takes the box and refuses to give his brother any of the chocolates, he is unjust to him, for the brother has been given a right to half of them. But suppose that, having learned that otherwise it means nine years in bed with that violinist, you unplug yourself from him. You surely are not being unjust to him, for you gave him no right to use your kidneys, and no one else can have given him any such right. But we have to notice that in unplugging yourself, you are killing him; and violinists, like everybody else, have a right to life, and thus in the view we were considering just now, the right not to be killed. So here you do what he supposedly has a right you shall not do, but you do not act unjustly to him in doing it.

The emendation which may be made at this point is this: the right to life consists not in the right not to be killed, but rather in the right not to be killed unjustly. This runs a risk of circularity, but never mind: it would enable us to square the fact that the violinist has a right to life with the fact that you do not act unjustly toward him in unplugging yourself, thereby killing him. For if you do not kill him unjustly, you do not violate his right to life, and so it is no wonder you do him no injustice.

But if this emendation is accepted, the gap in the argument against abortion stares us plainly in the face: it is by no means enough to show that the fetus is a person, and to remind us that all persons have a right to life–we need to be shown also that killing the fetus violates its right to life, i.e., that abortion is unjust killing. And is it?

I suppose we may take it as a datum that in a case of pregnancy due to rape the mother has not given the unborn person a right to the use of her body for food and shelter. Indeed, in what pregnancy could it be supposed that the mother has given the unborn person such a right? It is not as if there are unborn persons drifting about the world, to whom a woman who wants a child says I invite you in."

But it might be argued that there are other ways one can have acquired a right to the use of another person’s body than by having been invited to use it by that person. Suppose a woman voluntarily indulges in intercourse, knowing of the chance it will issue in pregnancy, and then she does become pregnant; is she not in part responsible for the presence, in fact the very existence, of the unborn person inside? No doubt she did not invite it in. But doesn’t her partial responsibility for its being there itself give it a right to the use of her body? If so, then her aborting it would be more like the boys taking away the chocolates, and less like your unplugging yourself from the violinist–doing so would be depriving it of what it does have a right to, and thus would be doing it an injustice.

And then, too, it might be asked whether or not she can kill it even to save her own life: If she voluntarily called it into existence, how can she now kill it, even in self-defense?

The first thing to be said about this is that it is something new. Opponents of abortion have been so concerned to make out the independence of the fetus, in order to establish that it has a right to life, just as its mother does, that they have tended to overlook the possible support they might gain from making out that the fetus is dependent on the mother, in order to establish that she has a special kind of responsibility for it, a responsibility that gives it rights against her which are not possessed by any independent person–such as an ailing violinist who is a stranger to her.

On the other hand, this argument would give the unborn person a right to its mother’s body only if her pregnancy resulted from a voluntary act, undertaken in full knowledge of the chance a pregnancy might result from it. It would leave out entirely the unborn person whose existence is due to rape. Pending the availability of some further argument, then, we would be left with the conclusion that unborn persons whose existence is due to rape have no right to the use of their mothers’ bodies, and thus that aborting them is not depriving them of anything they have ~ right to and hence is not unjust killing.

And we should also notice that it is not at all plain that this argument really does go even as far as it purports to. For there are cases and cases, and the details make a difference. If the room is stuffy, and I therefore open a window to air it, and a burglar climbs in, it would be absurd to say, "Ah, now he can stay, she’s given him a right to the use of her house–for she is partially responsible for his presence there, having voluntarily done what enabled him to get in, in full knowledge that there are such things as burglars, and that burglars burgle.‘’ It would be still more absurd to say this if I had had bars installed outside my windows, precisely to prevent burglars from getting in, and a burglar got in only because of a defect in the bars. It remains equally absurd if we imagine it is not a burglar who climbs in, but an innocent person who blunders or falls in. Again, suppose it were like this: people-seeds drift about in the air like pollen, and if you open your windows, one may drift in and take root in your carpets or upholstery. You don’t want children, so you fix up your windows with fine mesh screens, the very best you can buy. As can happen, however, and on very, very rare occasions does happen, one of the screens is defective, and a seed drifts in and takes root. Does the person-plant who now develops have a right to the use of your house? Surely not–despite the fact that you voluntarily opened your windows, you knowingly kept carpets and upholstered furniture, and you knew that screens were sometimes defective. Someone may argue that you are responsible for its rooting, that it does have a right to your house, because after all you could have lived out your life with bare floors and furniture, or with sealed windows and doors. But this won’t do–for by the same token anyone can avoid a pregnancy due to rape by having a hysterectomy, or anyway by never leaving home without a (reliable!) army.

It seems to me that the argument we are looking at can establish at most that there are some cases in which the unborn person has a right to the use of its mother’s body, and therefore some cases in which abortion is unjust killing. There is room for much discussion and argument as to precisely which, if any. But I think we should sidestep this issue and leave it open, for at any rate the argument certainly does not establish that all abortion is unjust killing.

There is room for yet another argument here, however. We surely must all grant that there may be cases in which it would be morally indecent to detach a person from your body at the cost of his life. Suppose you learn that what the violinist needs is not nine years of your life, but only one hour: all you need do to save his life is to spend one hour in that bed with him. Suppose also that letting him use your kidneys for that one hour would not affect your health in the slightest. Admittedly you were kidnapped. Admittedly you did not give anyone permission to plug him into you. Nevertheless it seems to me plain you ought to allow him to use your kidneys for that hour–it would be indecent to refuse.

Again, suppose pregnancy lasted only an hour, and constituted no threat to life or health. And suppose that a woman becomes pregnant as a result of rape. Admittedly she did not voluntarily do anything to bring about the existence of a child. Admittedly she did nothing at all which would give the unborn person a right to the use of her body. All the same it might well be said, as in the newly amended violinist story, that she ought to allow it to remain for that hour–that it would be indecent of her to refuse.

Now some people are inclined to use the term “right” in such a way that it follows from the fact that you ought to allow a person to use your body for the hour he needs, that he has a right to use your body for the hour he needs, even though he has not been given that right by any person or act. They may say that it follows also that if you refuse, you act unjustly toward him. This use of the term is perhaps so common that it cannot be called wrong; nevertheless it seems to me to be an unfortunate loosening of what we would do better to keep a tight rein on. Suppose that box of chocolates I mentioned earlier had not been given to both boys jointly, but was given only to the older boy. There he sits stolidly eating his way through the box. his small brother watching enviously. Here we are likely to say, “You ought not to be so mean. You ought to give your brother some of those chocolates.” My own view is that it just does not follow from the truth of this that the brother has any right to any of the chocolates. If the boy refuses to give his brother any he is greedy stingy. callous–but not unjust. I suppose that the people I have in mind will say it does follow that the brother has a right to some of the chocolates, and thus that the boy does act unjustly if he refuses to give his brother any. But the effect of saying, this is to obscure what we should keep distinct, namely the difference between the boy’s refusal in this case and the boy’s refusal in the earlier case, in which the box was given to both boys jointly, and in which the small brother thus had what was from any point of view clear title to half.

A further objection to so using the term “right” that from the fact that A ought to do a thing for B it follows that R has a right against A that A do it for him, is that it is going to make the question of whether or not a man has a right to a thing turn on how easy it is to provide him with it; and this seems not merely unfortunate, but morally unacceptable. Take the case of Henry Fonda again. I said earlier that I had no right to the touch of his cool hand on my fevered brow even though I needed it to save my life. I said it would be frightfully nice of him to fly in from the West Coast to provide me with it, but that I had no right against him that he should do so. But suppose he isn’t on the West Coast. Suppose he has only to walk across the room, place a hand briefly on my brow–and lo, my life is saved. Then surely he ought to do it-it would be indecent to refuse. Is it to be said, “Ah, well, it follows that in this case she has a right to the touch of his hand on her brow, and so it would be an injustice in him to refuse”? So that I have a right to it when it is easy for him to provide it, though no right when it’s hard? It’s rather a shocking idea that anyone’s rights should fade away and disappear as it gets harder and harder to accord them to him.

So my own view is that even though you ought to let the violinist use your kidneys for the one hour he needs, we should not conclude that he has a right to do so–we should say that if you refuse, you are, like the boy who owns all the chocolates and will give none away, self-centered and callous, indecent in fact, but not unjust. And similarly, that even supposing a case in which a woman pregnant due to rape ought to allow the unborn person to use her body for the hour he needs, we should not conclude that he has a right to do so; we should say that she is self-centered, callous, indecent, but not unjust, if she refuses. The complaints are no less grave; they are just different. However, there is no need to insist on this point. If anyone does wish to deduce “he has a right” from “you ought,” then all the same he must surely grant that there are cases in which it is not morally required of you that you allow that violinist to use your kidneys, and in which he does not have a right to use them, and in which you do not do him an injustice if you refuse. And so also for mother and unborn child. Except in such cases as the unborn person has a right to demand it–and we were leaving open the possibility that there may be such cases–nobody is morally required to make large sacrifices, of health, of all other interests and concerns, of all other duties and commitments, for nine years, or even for nine months, in order to keep another person alive.

We have in fact to distinguish between two kinds of Samaritan: the Good Samaritan and what we might call the Minimally Decent Samaritan. The story of the Good Samaritan, you will remember, goes like this:

A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was, and when he saw him he had compassion on him.

And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

And on the morrow, when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, “Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.” (Luke 10:30-35)

The Good Samaritan went out of his way, at some cost to himself, to help one in need of it. We are not told what the options were, that is, whether or not the priest and the Levite could have helped by doing less than the Good Samaritan did, but assuming they could have, then the fact they did nothing at all shows they were not even Minimally Decent Samaritans, not because they were not Samaritans, but because they were not even minimally decent.

These things are a matter of degree, of course, but there is a difference, and it comes out perhaps most clearly in the story of Kitty Genovese, who, as you will remember, was murdered while thirty-eight people watched or listened, and did nothing at all to help her. A Good Samaritan would have rushed out to give direct assistance against the murderer. Or perhaps we had better allow that it would have been a Splendid Samaritan who did this, on the ground that it would have involved a risk of death for himself. But the thirty-eight not only did not do this, they did not even trouble to pick up a phone to call the police. Minimally Decent Samaritanism would call for doing at least that, and their not having done it was monstrous.

After telling the story of the Good Samaritan, Jesus said, “Go, and do thou likewise.” Perhaps he meant that we are morally required to act as the Good Samaritan did. Perhaps he was urging people to do more than is morally required of them. At all events it seems plain that it was not morally required of any of the thirty-eight that he rush out to give direct assistance at the risk of his own life, and that it is not morally required of anyone that he give long stretches of his life–nine years or nine months–to sustaining the life of a person who has no special right (we were leaving open the possibility of this) to demand it.

Indeed, with one rather striking class of exceptions, no one in any country in the world is legally required to do anywhere near as much as this for anyone else. The class of exceptions is obvious. My main concern here is not the state of the law in respect to abortion, but it is worth drawing attention to the fact that in no state in this country is any man compelled by law to be even a Minimally Recent Samaritan to any person; there is no law under which charges could be brought against the thirty eight who stood by while Kitty Genovese died. By contrast, in most states in this country women are compelled by law to be not merely Minimally Decent Samaritans, but Good Samaritans to unborn persons inside them. This doesn’t by itself settle anything one way or the other, because it may well be argued that there should be laws in this country as there are in many European countries–compelling at least Minimally Decent Samaritanism. But it does show that there is a gross injustice in the existing state of the law. And it shows also that the groups currently working against liberalization of abortion laws, in fact working toward having it declared unconstitutional for a state to permit abortion, had better start working for the adoption of Good Samaritan laws generally, or earn the charge that they are acting in bad faith.

I should think, myself, that Minimally Decent Samaritan laws would be one thing, Good Samaritan laws quite another, and in fact highly improper. But we are not here concerned with the law. What we should ask is not whether anybody should be compelled by law to be a Good Samaritan, but whether we must accede to a situation in which somebody is being compelled–by nature, perhaps–to be a Good Samaritan. We have, in other words, to look now at third-party interventions. I have been arguing that no person is morally required to make large sacrifices to sustain the life of another who has no right to demand them, and this even where the sacrifices do not include life itself; we are not morally required to be Good Samaritans or anyway Very Good Samaritans to one another. But what if a man cannot extricate himself from such a situation? What if he appeals to us to extricate him? It seems to me plain that there are cases in which we can, cases in which a Good Samaritan would extricate him. There you are, you were kidnapped, and nine years in bed with that violinist lie ahead of you. You have your own life to lead. You are sorry, but you simply cannot see giving up so much of your life to the sustaining of his. You cannot extricate yourself, and ask us to do so. I should have thought that–in light of his having no right to the use of your body–it was obvious that we do not have to accede to your being forced to give up so much. We can do what you ask. There is no injustice to the violinist in our doing so.

Following the lead of the opponents of abortion, I have throughout been speaking of the fetus merely as a person, and what I have been asking is whether or not the argument we began with, which proceeds only from the fetus’s being a person, really does establish its conclusion. I have argued that it does not.

But of course there are arguments and arguments, and it may be said that I have simply fastened on the wrong one. It may be said that what is important is not merely the fact that the fetus is a person, but that it is a person for whom the woman has a special kind of responsibility issuing from the fact that she is its mother. And it might be argued that all my analogies are therefore irrelevant–for you do not have that special kind of responsibility for that violinist; Henry Fonda does not have that special kind of responsibility for me. And our attention might be drawn to the fact that men and women both are compelled by law to provide support for their children

I have in effect dealt (briefly) with this argument in section 4 above; but a (still briefer) recapitulation now may be in order. Surely we do not have any such “special responsibility” for a person unless we have assumed it, explicitly or implicitly. If a set of parents do not try to prevent pregnancy, do not obtain an abortion, but rather take it home with them, then they have assumed responsibility for it, they have given it rights, and they cannot now withdraw support from it at the cost of its life because they now find it difficult to go on providing for it. But if they have taken all reasonable precautions against having a child, they do not simply by virtue of their biological relationship to the child who comes into existence have a special responsibility for it. They may wish to assume responsibility for it, or they may not wish to. And I am suggesting that if assuming responsibility for it would require large sacrifices, then they may refuse. A Good Samaritan would not refuse–or anyway, a Splendid Samaritan, if the sacrifices that had to be made were enormous. But then so would a Good Samaritan assume responsibility for that violinist; so would Henry Fonda, if he is a Good Samaritan, fly in from the West Coast and assume responsibility for me.

My argument will be found unsatisfactory on two counts by many of those who want to regard abortion as morally permissible. First, while I do argue that abortion is not impermissible, I do not argue that it is always permissible. There may well be cases in which carrying the child to term requires only Minimally Decent Samaritanism of the mother, and this is a standard we must not fall below. I am inclined to think it a merit of my account precisely that it does not give a general yes or a general no. It allows for and supports our sense that, for example, a sick and desperately frightened fourteen-year-old schoolgirl, pregnant due to rape, may of course choose abortion, and that any law which rules this out is an insane law. And it also allows for and supports our sense that in other cases resort to abortion is even positively indecent. It would be indecent in the woman to request an abortion, and indecent in a doctor to perform it, if she is in her seventh month, and wants the abortion just to avoid the nuisance of postponing a trip abroad. The very fact that the arguments I have been drawing attention to treat all cases of abortion, or even all cases of abortion in which the mother’s life is not at stake, as morally on a par ought to have made them suspect at the outset.

Second, while I am arguing for the permissibility of abortion in some cases, I am not arguing for the right to secure the death of the unborn child. It is easy to confuse these two things in that up to a certain point in the life of the fetus it is not able to survive outside the mother’s body; hence removing it from her body guarantees its death. But they are importantly different. I have argued that you are not morally required to spend nine months in bed, sustaining the life of that violinist, but to say this is by no means to say that if, when you unplug yourself, there is a miracle and he survives, you then have a right to turn round and slit his throat. You may detach yourself even if this costs him his life; you have no right to be guaranteed his death, by some other means, if unplugging yourself does not kill him. There are some people who will feel dissatisfied by this feature of my argument. A woman may be utterly devastated by the thought of a child, a bit of herself, put out for adoption and never seen or heard of again. She may therefore want not merely that the child be detached from her, but more, that it die. Some opponents of abortion are inclined to regard this as beneath contempt–thereby showing insensitivity to what is surely a powerful source of despair. All the same, I agree that the desire for the child’s death is not one which anybody may gratify, should it turn out to be possible to detach the child alive.

At this place, however, it should be remembered that we have only been pretending throughout that the fetus is a human being from the moment of conception. A very early abortion is surely not the killing of a person, and so is not dealt with by anything I have said here.

Xunzian, I will assume by your presence in this thread that you know that a human being, a person, begins at the moment of conception.

Therefore, assuming such to be true, what is your position on abortion? Are you pro-choice, pro-abortion, pro-life, anti-abortion, what? And why is that your position?

Good God, why so much controversy over such a simple idea as Murder.

It is a majority consensus that Murder is not right and not acceptable in society, however almost no one knows what Murder is and that is why we have these tired silly scenarios like the above post.

This is not hard once you can define Murder and the law and I see it pretty much the same. Murder is about the intent, which is not the same as killing. To put your desires above another life is Murder because it is lopsided, desire is not equal to life and death.

There is never a case that fits these silly stories where a choice has to be made between the Mother and the Child, they are man maid stories with an agenda at heart and is in no way indicative of reality, the acorn and oak tree scenario is the dumbest of all, comparing human life to a tree is retarded and irrelevant in both Law and Logic.

Life is more then this tissue and as any doctor will testify to, no one knows for sure if some one will die ahead of time in these cases, it simply a gamble that seems to weigh heavily one way or the other yet are often proven wrong. If everyone would stop worrying about such nonsense and do the right thing by being selfless and caring about others life, none of this would be an issue. A normal caring Mother will fight for her child until death, only the defective and selfish Mother will consider Abortion because it may be dangerous to her and this double standard is fleshed out in the reality that any birth can take the Mothers life even under ideal circumstances and all Mothers are willing to take this risk when it suites them.

Now the cases where a Mother chooses Abortion out of pure convenience, well this should not even have to be mentioned as the most selfish and horrific act a human can choose and those Women should be deeply ashamed of themselves.

Kingdaddy, I will assume by your presence in this thread that you know that a human being, a person, begins at the moment of conception.

Therefore, assuming such to be true, what is your position on abortion? Are you pro-choice, pro-abortion, pro-life, anti-abortion, what? And why is that your position?

Actually, I reject the personhood of a fetus. So, my opinion isn’t relevant to the discussion. Thomson’s, however, is. So, I didn’t present my own opinion, I presented Thomson’s for discussion.

Sabrina: do you truly insist that we accept that a human person begins to exist at conception in order to participate in this discussion? Would it be sufficient to accept this notion provisionally, and argue from the assumption that it is true without giving personal assent?

Those are confusing questions considering my post. Isn’t it obvious that I believe that life begins at the moment of conception? My reasoning should be more then enough to state my position but I will not subscribe to either popular camp because of their evil intent and actions. I believe in selfless behavior (Love) and above all, the respect of life above any convenience or desire.

Xunzian and Aporia:

I would like my request that themes this thread to be respected.

The initial post presents why it is important to respect the theme of this request, so that we can move on in the discussion of this issue beyond where it is usually arrested.

If you don’t know that a human being, a person, begins at conception, then please don’t post any further in this thread.

I would greatly appreciate your respect in this matter.

Thank you.

Okay, I’ll make a bit of a stretch and say that what you’re telling me is that you believe a human being, a person, begins to live at conception. Please feel free to correct me if I’ve stretched too far.

With that in mind, we both know the truth of it, that a new person begins at conception.

So, considering that I would indeed kill a fetus for economical or lifestyle reasons if I became unintentionally pregnant, how does that make you feel?

And, is there something about this you’d like to discuss with me in perhaps an attempt to come to some issue resolving common ground?

What can I say that I haven’t already, I think the act of putting your desires and comfort above another life is a completely selfish act and is in fact Murder. As far as how it makes me feel, well I see so much of this attitude in my fellow human I guess I’m not a bit surprised but still saddened that life means so little to many and personal comfort means so much, kinda the opposite of Love wouldn’t you say? Ultimately this attitude is self defeating and fruitless and this is the foundation of a human that needs to be separated from those who do care to put others before themselves. Training yourself to fight against Love by serving your self first is really a paradox since we all need Love to have any meaning in life or even will to live.

However I’m not necessarily sure this judgment belongs in the courts system considering how poorly a job they do with even pedestrian affairs.

I can’t expound my own opinion here (kill 'em) because I don’t believe that a one-day-old sperm-egg combination is a person.

Kingdaddy: (if you don’t mind my butting in) A married man and woman have between them trillions of possible offspring. If one of them is discovered to be a spastic-in-the-making at 3 months (say), wouldn’t it be better for everyone if they “had another go in the lucky dip” by having an abortion and new pregnancy?

I believe a new ‘original’ life begins at conception.

I’m pretty much totally against abortion, but I’m also a realist (or trying to be), and so…

[b]A woman/girl should only be allowed one abortion within her lifetime, and this abortion should only be allowed within the first trimester.

If a woman/girl presents herself for a ‘second’ abortion, ‘claiming’ to have been raped, then a DNA sample should be taken from the healthy-growing-foetus in question, and a full police investigation should then begin, with DNA samples being taken from any boyfriends or husbands. If there is a DNA match with a boyfriend/husband, then the woman/girl should press ‘irreversible’ charges of rape against that man. If she is unwilling to do so, then of course, she should be denied an abortion.

Alternatively, a woman/girl ‘may’ have a second abortion (no questions asked) but only if the procedure involves a permanent sterilisation - this way the medical establishment won’t have to waste any more time on the stupid/selfish/crazy bitch.[/b]

Had an abortion Sabrina …? ( Methinks so. )

P.S. - Most women regret having an abortion.
afterabortion.org/Survey2.htm

I don’t necessarily disagree with you.

It is, to a degree, selfish, and it is, by definition, murder.

Yet I would still do so – I would still commit abortion for the reasons I mentioned.

You see, Kingdaddy, this is the only life I will ever have – I need to make the best of it for myself. The last thing I want to do is to handicap my chance at thriving economically and freedom wise when I don’t want to and may thereafter likely never get a second chance to thrive until I’m too old to have the energy to do so.

That unintended person growing inside of me is a threat to my thriving.

I don’t believe in an afterlife, Kingdaddy. I don’t believe in compensation in the “hereafter” for sacrificing my chance at thriving in the here and now. This is my one and only shot at life.

Are you of a particular religion that belives in this kind of afterlife compensation?

Does that factor into your perspective?

Life doesn’t mean so little to me, if it makes you feel any better.

I find the murderous slaughter of innocent Iraqis for oil to be just as saddening.

All that slaughter merely for the depression-avoiding petroleum comfort of we Americans – where is the love in that?

Granted, pointing out the flaws in others doesn’t change my own realities, and yes, you could say I simply don’t love the person inside of me sufficient to spare its life for my “comfort”.

Maybe if we had better birth control commensurate with our current level of science, maybe if we had better child-rearing conditions that won’t impoverish me for choosing to carry the fetus to term, maybe if we had tougher preventative penalties with regard to rape and incest … maybe then I’d be more sympathetic toward the life of the person inside of me.

But I’m not in this life to sacrifice myself needlessly to make life easier on the “comfort” of others.

Solve my environmental needs that I specified two paragraphs previous, then you’ll have my attention in the abortion matter.

I would hardly classify me as a leper, Kingdaddy.

You may see an ascetic altruist as someone to be worshipped, but I see him as someone to be pittied.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

This conflict will not be resolved by abstract religious appeal to the lauding of sacrificial lambs.

This is a concrete matter where real life issues must be dealt with in a hard and tough manner.

Help me to rationally prevent conceiving an unwanted person, and then you’ll have my attention.

If I have one child already who is, let’s say, two years-old, and I recognize the truth of the matter that I will shortchange her by carrying the new person to term, that I’d rob her completely of what little attention my work and commute and chores and other responsibility time presently allow me. Don’t you think it is my love for her that factors into my decision to abort the new person?

Sometimes we are faced with difficult “Sophie’s Choice” scenarios.

We do the best we can.

That does not make us “unloving”.

Again, it is preferable that I never got pregnant with the second child in the first place.

But failing that, I would still be doing the loving thing in this situation by silently aborting the new fetus.

That’s love too, Kingdaddy.

I’m not sure that is even an applicable comment, especially if you find the courts generally too “liberal”.

And the last thing I’d want is a ban on abortion, as I’d simply go somewhere that I could get an abortion, though I’d hate to risk my life in some back alley.

Banning abortion without first adding better pregnancy prevention materials is barbaric, and I’ll fight that hatred of women tooth and nail!

Wow! Why don’t you just outlaw sex for those who don’t want to get pregnant – that would be easier all the way around. Then when they want to get pregnant, just have them sign a statement to that effect with the authorities (the government, church, medical institution or whoever should be in charge) promising that if they get pregnant they won’t abort the fetus. :unamused:

I’m afraid, SirEbrum, that you don’t stand a Draconian of a chance of getting such repressive legislation passed in the U S of A.

Better is to give us all better methods of prevention that really work, thereby giving us the freedom to have sex as we wish and without ever conceiving anyone we don’t wish to.

Amazing – I’m supposed to answer a personal question like that while so many around me refuse to get that personal.

But okay, I’ll go first.

No, I’ve never had an abortion. I don’t have any children. I’ve never been pregnant.

Yes, I’ve known some women who’ve had an abortion, and, to at least some degree in every case, they were never the same again. Either they were more visibly troubled or more coldly detached after the abortion.

I can’t imagine an honest person ever stating that an abortion would not have some kind of damaging effect.

But I’d still do it.

It’s a matter of weighing the plusses and minuses.

I may even require therapy afterwards, but in time I’d recover, and I’d still have my freedom, freedom that is so necessary to thrive in this one-shot system of socioeconomics and even life itself.

Better, however, would be not to get pregnant in the first place if I didn’t want to.

But between the Bible-thumping anti-abortionists who are afraid to invest in providing me better prevention measures for fear I’ll simply become wantonly promiscuous and the rabid feminists who deny the existence of the person in the womb and so don’t see any need for real conception prevention, these two extremes are halting science from giving me what I need in the matter.

I believe that humanity is the mother of us all. Ideally, I see us all in a process of becoming what we are genetically capable of being within the womb of humanity. This process of natural activity begins at conception and ends at death. I consider aborting a ‘pregnancy’ at any time for any reason a crime against humanity. In Vancouver B.C. Robert Pickton is being tried for aborting the lives of 6 of the 26 women he is accused of aborting. Around the world there must be hundreds of thousands of individuals in jail for aborting the lives of others for various reasons. Sabrina, you can only hope you do not get in the way of another’s pursuit of pleasure or become a “threat to (someone else’s) thriving” or you too will become an abortion. Also see murder

If the walls of your mind are too close together for this view of life to fit between them, you should abort this thread because it will create nothing new.

For convenience sake, I will conclude that what you also mean by this is that a human being, a person, begins to live that person’s life at conception.

Please correct my conclusion if it is in error.

Then you must think of me as someone who is promoting “criminal activity”.

Did you also find the oil-thieving muderous invasion of Iraq to be “criminal activity”?

It is quite legal to have an abortion in the United States.

Roe v. Wade has secured that here.

Yes, I may be hiding behind the skirts of the law on this one, but as long as there are people who would think of jailing me for aborting an undesired ‘pregnancy’, I’ll be thankful the law hasn’t passed such judgment upon me.

Though I don’t know who Mr. Pickton is, I’m beginning to think that you aren’t talking about literal abortion anymore as it pertains to terminating the lives of pre-natal people.

If my thinking is right, you’re a bit off topic.

Yes, now I’m pretty sure you’re using the word abortion without respect to its topical meaning and relevance.

Yes, I get your point.

But there is a difference between “aborting” a post-natal person and a pre-natal person, isn’t there?

If you don’t think there’s a difference, please explain in comprehensible detail.

I am quite aware that if I choose to abort the life of the person within me for reasons of economics or freedom of choice or whatever, where my life isn’t in danger from that person, that many would call that murder.

I don’t necessarily disagree with them.

But that person lives within me.

If I find my freedom to thrive as I see fit threatened by this person inside me whom I don’t even know, just like we murdered Iraqis without remorse, I’ll simply declare war on that person within me … and if he or she dies in the process, that’s simply the way of our species.

So the walls of my mind are too close together to contain your broad concept.

The walls of your mind are too wide apart that any generalism, without regard to subject specifics that renders it situationally inapplicable, can find an idealistic home there.

Get specific with it Deb, sans idealism, and face the harsh realities of being poor and pregnant, doomed to years of economic and visceral misery.

Then get off your judgmental high horse and let’s see if we can create a resolution to the conflicts in this matter without having me be the “bad gal” who has to do all of the sacrificing.

It’s the only life the child will ever have as well and your selfish decision ended it for no good reason other then your fears and doubts, how sad.

That seems to be a strangely negative view, what makes you think the child will be a threat? Free will that all humans have can cause outcomes that no one can predict, some wonderful and life changing for the better some not, do you really think you have any control of what others do? More evidence of fear and attempt to control that which you cannot.

I don’t subscribe to any particular religion but I would personally call my self a Christian because I endeavor to follow the teachings of Christ and firmly believe in them. My personal beliefs don’t actually include the idea of compensation in the afterlife, only separation very similar to what we already have in all societies. The bad apple will spoil the bunch and the bad apples are those reserved to pure selfishness.

Somewhat, although the positive part and purpose which I believe is Love supercedes all of this.

The idea of no consequences after the grave is just a bit illogical to me considering all the evidence of cause and affect that we can see every day in this life. If there is no afterlife then there is no actual right or wrong or good or bad so your decisions would be irrelevant regardless of what you decide no matter how horrific of an act you perform. The idea of no afterlife or consequences kind of erodes the meaning and purpose of all things to a point of nothingness, not sure I can see how you could make sense of this in your mind. Technically this would leave a loophole for the most clever and evil humans that can and will hide their atrocities from others until this pointless existence ends, this just doesn’t ring true or fair in my mind, does it yours?

But it does relative to your desires, that’s the point and danger of selfish activity without regard of the affect.

All murder is selfish driven and all is equally destructive so what’s the point? Are you saying because other events like Abortion are happening that they somehow nullify each other out? This seems like something a child would use to get out of trouble.

Birth control is built into every human and ultimately at the hands of the woman, are you suggesting that science is to blame for your decisions? This idea of everything is someone else’s fault seems to be the mantra of this younger generation and is very alarming to many of us. BTW, using Rape and Incest as the champion for Abortion is a cheep and lazy tactic; you well know that nearly all Abortions are performed simply because of convenience and selfish desires. Poisoning the well with these ideas will not change the fact that a terrible misfortune and inconvenience of an unplanned or unwanted child of rape still has a right to life. Again this fear and controlling attitude focuses the problem on the child which is not where it belongs, all life is precious regardless of the circumstances and the cases of a severely deformed child will be taken care of by nature if people would let it. The point is not to try and control life, it’s not our job or right, the laws of nature will do this for us. Also consider that the affect of this unwanted life can be a great blessing and purpose that is beyond your knowledge or present comprehension.

Its not a single act of selfishness that makes someone far worse then any leper, it’s a life of continual selfish activity that shapes and molds people into the so called bad apples that cause much harm to everyone they are around. There should be plenty of living examples of this all around and don’t underestimate the subtle path that leads to this outcome. To operate in self will slowly choke out the ability to Love properly and like the analogy of the frog placed in the warm water that is slowly brought to a boil, you wont be aware of the dangers until its too late.

Why? What bad attribute or affect can such a person have on society? I can name plenty of bad affects that the selfish person can cause, care to compare?

Judging comes from the heart and is also selfish and hypocritical in the fact that we are all guilty the same. However, condemnation of hurtful acts with an attitude and knowledge of this will guide the individual to productive and proper action. Complete pacifism is a waste of thought and ideas; there is a time and place to fight things that are causing harm.

Self-examination is the starting point to finding the Truth, no one can help you if you don’t accept.

Total cop out and the purposed scenario is purely hypothetical brought on by fear. You have completely missed the possibilities of all the good. Consider that your present child might do well to have a sibling to teach her about considering and respecting the will of others, something that you seemed to have missed in childhood.

Your current conditions and attitude is more likely to cause you and you present child more damage or threat then the affect of any new child could. Maybe you should reinvest your fears upon your desires where it belongs instead of placing it upon other things that you have no control over.

Trying to control is where the problem begins.

No, many try to control the best they can, kind of like your war example. Both are driven from the same heart.

Every act of self that hurts others does in fact make us unloving.

Sounds like you struggling to justify a decision that you already made instead of opening your heart to the Truth that might not make you feel so good about yourself.

Love is giving without expecting anything in return, its putting others needs and desires above your own, it’s like proper charity which does not try to control what is given. The attitude of trying to control what you give is a false love and is agenda driven just like the idea of Abortion, it is always about self and nothing could be further from Love then that.

Respecting and loving life does not mean that such life cannot be weighed to determine importance. As Sabrina does, we can weigh our own life against the life of another. If we are unable to conceive, we can weigh the life of someone who we know and interact with against the life they carry who we do not know. There are many ethical dilemmas that pit a familiar person against a stranger in a double bind, and it is common to pick the familiar. Even more common is to pick the life of the person that you much watch over that of someone unseen.
Even given that fetuses have it, we still need not assume that life is the pinnacle of moral value. If we could kill one innocent child to vastly improve the lives of a million suffering people, shouldn’t we?
In the case of abortion, the situation is much more inticate: The birth of the child not only might destroy the life of the mother (and I do mean destroy, not only for economic issues such as those that Sabrina raised, but for social issues such as ostracisation which exacerbate the trauma by revoke support when it is most needed), but its own life as well. If we could know that a child would be born into a life of suffering (and we don’t, as kingdaddy says, but life often calls upon us to make best-guess decisions with imperfect knowledge), is it really the compassionate thing to allow the child to continue living? In a way, abortion is often a complicated sort of euthanasia, putting down a life to spare it the torment that it will cause.

By the way, I think that “know” in the topic title should be “believe”. And I will play by your rules, but I will not remain silent.

Actually, I believe that a human being begins as a sperm. Therefore, every time contraceptives are used, you are murdering millions of people.

Your reasons for believing a human being begins at conception may be scientific, but one still cannot conclude, based on those facts, that life begins at conception, for I could use the same types of facts about sperm to prove my point.

  1. Without sperm, conception would not be possible.
  2. Sperm cells contribute half of the genetic information to the diploid offspring. Without sperm, one could only create half of a human being, which might as well not be human at all (lacking all chromosomes).
  3. In mammals, the sex of the offspring is determined by the sperm cells, thereby showing that each sperm cell is and individual, and will create a unique person.

Debating about when life begins is an inconvenient thorn in the anti-abortionists side, because it simply cannot be done. It’s similar to arguing about what love is. It just can’t be scientifically proven. That being said:

Okay, I will begin with the premise that life begins at conception.

Morality is still determined largely in part by the amount of suffering caused through the course of one’s actions. We do not kill others, and we can rationalize this by the obvious negative effects it has on all those who were somehow affected by the death, whether it be losing a good worker who contributes to society, a father who supports his wife and three children, or a leader who unites people and drives them to live better lives.

It’s quite clear that if one was faced with the decision of either killing a hobo with no remaining family on earth, or killing somebody who has a large family, a job that affects many lives, and is largely involved in society and the community, who also happens to be your father, you’ll choose your father.

That is ethically correct because you are minimizing the negative affects related to the death. More people will continue to be helped, less people will grieve, etc. etc. It is the same reason one chooses to save five people tied to a train track, as opposed to one person tied to the other fork.

When one aborts, the only suffering induced is by the parent, and this is most likely magnified by our society’s torn beliefs on the matter. In a society where abortion was a common practice due to proven benefit, such a debate wouldn’t exist, and perhaps the parent wouldn’t suffer at all. I’m sure some don’t.