Do we pick who we love?

The oft repeated quote, all philosophy after aristotle is just a footnote is bad poetry in my opinion. There are plenty of schools and thoughts of philosophy which are far reaching in their breadth, originality and effectivness. At best we can attribute the foundations of Western philosophy to Aristotle. The only tracing you can do is the historical development. Certainly he did not come up with barely any of the modern concepts. What about phenomenology? That was started at the beginning of the last century. There are plenty of other modes of though, Berkley’s idealism, Descartes skeptism, which Aristotle certainly didn’t have anything to do with. In fact much of the troubles in that era of resisting these theories were because many European Universities exclusivly taught Aristotlean philosopy and so didn’t want any new theories showing that their previous work had been pointless.

How can you apply objective reality to philosophy? That doesn’t make any sense to me. As objective reality is a philosophical term, you’re effectivly applying philosophy to philosophy.

There have been plenty of objections to laissez-faire capitalism, Marx being one of the immediate ones that springs to mind and it certainly isn’t practiced in the modern world. We have plenty of laws and such making both American, UK and European economic systems a type of Social Capitalism rather than laissez-faire. The concept of laissez-faire capitalism leads to morally repugnant ideas of not having a social security system, not protecting consumers against lies and deciets by companies, not protecting our environment from unscrupulous producers, monopolies being perfectly legal, exploitation of people’s economic situation being legal, I could find many more examples if you so wish. Some of these objections do disappear depending on what type of laissez-faire capitalism rand advocates, but certainly not all of them.

The whole idea of a Rand’s morality is absurd as we all practice altruism all the time within our family groups, under Rand, there would be no such thing as an adulterer, there would be no compulsion to bring up children, you don;'t want it, abandon it on the street (and remember, no social security and no altruism from other people means we walk on by as it lies, cries and dies).

And you wanna know why it makes me sad? Cause calling a system of selfishness isn’t a moral theory at all, it’s an excuse to duck responsibility and let suffering continue just because it’s not convinient forpeople to face upto their moral obligations.

Finally, I would argue that there is some effect of genetics on thought at it is partially genetics that determines our cognitive capacities and soour ability to comprehend ideas. We are not intellectual equals, much as we are not physical equals, whatever our governments try and pretend. The “nurture/nature” debate has pretty much burnt out concluding that it is part of both systems that determine our intellectual capacities. So it must affect thought in some way. It also will affect thoughts when yor body starts releasing mind altering drugs into your system, I’m sure most have us have felt the shift in mental patterns before/after sex, our libido will be determined by genetics, so the extent of that randiness will affect the extent of the effect of sexual desire on our thought processes. So though I will admit that genetics won’t make us think “Black man bad”, it will predispose us to agreewith a beautiful woman to do a task we wouldn’t do if asked by an ugly one. Hence the effect of genetics.

Is this a joke? I don’t know, maybe we should come up with a generic response to Objectivists and just push a button so we can be done with it. Oh, wait, I see now, you mean Rand misapplied objective reality (the two together are nonsensical by the way. What would subjective reality be?) to a misreading of certain texts in philosophy and basically tried to reverse Marx.

Galt’s Gulch is the best description of communism in action that I’ve ever read.

I think the real question should be whether or not it is wrong to choose who we love.

Sure… When I was younger I made a list of all the qualities I would basically want in a person -= to make me fall in love with them. It was really simple… it was just making sure that I kept track of all the qualities in past people that I didn’t like… so that when I fell in love… I wouldn’t be falling for the same thing. Mainly I wanted someone who was a complete contradiction (as I find myself to be) … I wanted a middle man… someone who is a little bit of everthing - which is actually a lot harder thing to find than most people imagine. Thing is… I made this list… and I didn’t follow it. I dated many people who were completely opposite from anything I had ever hoped for… though there was one person I met and jokingly said to myself “I’m going to fall in love with him…” … but I really just drifted away from that thought… and that person became my best friend…

Then… one day I realized that I loved my best friend… what made me “realize” that I was “in love” ? … One day… I was talking to him… and I had to leave… and I realized that I didn’t want to stop talking to him… I didn’t want to leave him… ever. Not then, not ever again. I did leave and go out to lunch with my family… but I had no appetite… because of this “realization” … yeah it scared me shitless. But as time passed… I finally accepted it as truth… because it never went away… and I finally told him how I felt.

Now, I don’t know if its because I love him… and I’m just wearing rose colored glasses… but… As I’ve gotten to know him… that list I made previously… he’s become everything that I’ve ever wanted on it… everything on it and more. I don’t know if I chose to love him or not- since I did pressume that I would… that could of made me look at him differently and react differently to him than I ever have with anyone else…

Point is - is it wrong to recognize what things you want in a person and find them? I’m the happiest I’ve ever been in ages… and I have an aunt my mother always refers to - who made a “list” of things she would look for in a man… and she made sure her dates had those traits before she dated them… and frankly… shes the only person in my family who has had an easy led and happily led life… especially in the area of marriage.

There are no monopolies in LF capitalism. A monopoly is something that ONLY government intervention can create. Exploitation can occur in any form of economy. In fact, I’d say that exploitation in LF capitalism is much lower than the other known economic systems.

Speak for yourself when you say we all practice altruism.

In the ideal world, abortions would be allowed, and the amount of “unwanted” babies would drastically reduce. There would also probably be laws against abandoning an infant to the streets. That’s certainly not something Rand advocated or implied in her philosophy.

What responsibilities are being ducked? Responsibilities by who’s standards? There’s no such thing as a moral obligation. Hell, that is a contradiction in terms. Morality pertains to choice. Obligation means no choice. The two words have oppoite meanings and put together they mean nothing, really. It’s a fake term coined by altruists to con you into thinking you must help other people and devote your life to your neighbors and society.

Brad, I don’t know what the hell you’re trying to say, but I will try to explain myself better.

Rand is the only philosopher to apply reality to philosophy. That is, applying man’s nature to man’s way of life. There are very few philosophies that recognize the Law of Identity and even fewer that apply it consistently throughout. Rand did. She was the first.

And yes, believe it or not there are people who believe in subjective realities… so the term objective reality seems like a redundancy to intelligent people, but is necessary in most philosophical discussions from lack of understanding.

silver stated:

Hmmm…interesting ideas here. I was wondering if you had anymore thoughts attached to this theme? Further elaboration? Examples? I love to hear more.

silver stated:

How are you so sure? Maybe you met your significant other but they just aren’t your significant other yet. Maybe you already met your significant other many many years ago, maybe you met your significant other a few weeks ago, maybe you are right and you haven’t met your significant other yet, but we can’t BE SURE of any one of these.

Silver stated:

I agree.

Silver stated:

I can’t say I can, but ironically I believe that when I do meet my significant other, if I haven’t already, that I will feel happy/good when we are together. As you described it. About the relationship thing, I usually know whether its going to be short or long. But I haven’t found a person whom I can say I would know right from the start that I would be with them forever. I know people who have said so, and as far as I can tell, it’s been true since. A good friend of mine is a good example, in the first month of dating his significant other, he articulated to me that this was the one for him and that they would get married. They aren’t married yet, but they have been dating for over two years. So far so good…

Silver stated:

Beautifully said, I agree and thank you for your wisdom. It’s so true that so often in life it’s not that we need help solving a problem, it’s just that we need someone to go through things with. Someone to share experiences with, to face lifes challenges with someone and not alone.

What’s your take?

Magius wrote:

uhh… I can try… no promises though because I really don’t have any bases for these thoughts other than pure speculation founded on an absurdly small scientific understanding…
I look at the world around me and wonder how something so stable and predictable is founded on such an unpredictable and chaotic world governed by probabilities.
So I thought; just like our reality of objects and places is based on a smaller quantum realm… so is life and, accordingly, the human existence.
We, ourselves, only exist in this form (self-aware, with bodies) because we originally exist in another form at a molecular/subatomic/beyond level. And it is this ‘micro’ part of the reality of our existence which allows us to experience the present ‘macro’ part of our existence. So you can say that our ‘macro’ consciousness is a by product of our ‘micro’ consciousness. And our macro state is a by product of our micro state … And so everything we do or think or choose… is really done, thought and chosen at a smaller part of us, a “micro” consciousness…

Err… I wouldn’t be surprised if you have no clue what I’m talking about… These are just random thoughts that i haven’t refined or justified…
Anyways… so what do u think?.. feel free to add ideas, point out errors in concept &/or logic … ask more questions…etc…

you know… i never thought of it like that…

Beautifully said… :wink:

Nobody seems to realize that before you can be in love you must reach that which Aristotle said is the goal of philosphy, eudaimonia…happiness. How can you love someone and give them all of you if you haven’t reached into yourself and tapped into your soul. You can’t give what you don’t have. Once you do that, you’ll find love and love will find you. We work too hard on finding it when in fact it will come to us when we are ready. Forcing it will not result in long term happiness.

Big Aristotle,
nice words of wisdom. You are correct in your observation of a lack of appearance of any understanding from people that they must be happy with themselves before they can be happy with others. I completely agree about one having to love themselves before they can truly love another, they must be happy with themselves before they can be truly happy with another, etc. I’ve spoken those very words in a few posts within the forums.

But I must express my critique in your reference to Eudamonia. I do not believe in teleology, atleast not in the objective and universal sense. What most people also don’t realize is that we anthropomorphize to nature, matter, and the universe which hinders or effectively slows down progress in developing our knowledge. Eudamonia is suppose to be the highest end according to Aristotle. Nothing can be higher than this end, nothing can make it better because it is the highest. But if I have Eudamonia, it must be remembered that it isn’t necessarily happiness, but a completedness. Well, if I am complete than what is the point of a significant other? On Contraire, most people would tell you that their significant other MAKES them complete. So no one can truly feel Eudamonia until they are with their significant other, but that means that they cant be in Eudamonia before they love as you suggested, for that is a contradiction. The vertex of this paradox lies in the concept of Eudamonia. It’s simply false, too ideological to be properly applied to reality. Another erroneous concept within Eudamonia is the simple fact that we all supposedly strive toward this end instinctively. But a criteria for Eudamonia is the it must be choiceworthy, we must choose it. But if we are instinctively striving for it, than we are not making a choice, we are determined to go after it, whether it be by genes, or some other coercive force within or exterior to us.

I also agree that love comes to us, it’s not something we find logically or rationally. Which is also something I have stated within my posts. It’s the one part of love that must be left to fate, in my opinion. Love isn’t something that has categorese or groups to which you can refer and check off on a list and then finally tell yourself you are in love. Like the Oracle in the MATRIX said “No one can tell you ‘you are in love’, you just know it”.

Big Aristotle stated:

I couldn’t agree more. It is the short sided effects of forcing love that people get boggled down with. It becomes attractive, extreme amounts of euphoria in short spurts of time. It makes our lives like roller coasters, we come to feel extremely inadequate once these short euphoric experiences are hard to come by, we depend on them for our identity. It’s much the same with drugs, alcohol, or any other addiction for that matter. In the fast paced life we live in, it has become harder and harder to come by people that understand your above statement. I am so glad you posted it. I hope many read it, more importantly, I hope more come to understand it.

What’s your take?

Magius,
Thanks for the thoughts on eudaimonia as, to tell you the truth, I didn’t know as much about it as I should have. Actually, after reading your thoughts on it, I realized that I failed to see the hypocrisy of what I was saying about eudaimonia preceding love. Just for arguments sake, can one feel eudaimonia without a significant other (let’s just disregard the ideological nature of eudaimonia)? Or do we need a significant other in order to be complete and feel eudiamonia?

Magius stated:

Regarding that, I have this additionally to say: The reason people force it is because they feel the need to settle for less than the best. This is more often than not due to restraints they put on themselves. By “best” I mean best for them, that which will allows them to move forward on this path towards arete, eudaimonia, happiness, content, whatever. Sometimes I wonder how long we are going to last here because most suffer from the wrong kind of selfishness. The one that impacts others in a negative way, and us in a positive, but the thing is that most of those are physical things and subject to change at any moment. People need to start being selfish and working on their soul and slow down life to a snail’s pace for a while. When that happens we won’t need to ask the question: Do we pick who we fall in love with?

Well, a lot of people argue that they are not happy without the person they love. In these cases, it would be impossible to ever love anyone.

Person A needs to be happy to love person B.
Person A needs to love person B to be happy.

See where this goes?