Does Capitalism have any business in a New World Order?

Capitalism was an excellent tool as a domestic system of exchange during the colonial era of nation building. It encouraged entrepreneurship, invention and the rapid growth of the technologies needed to develop the colonies.

Did capitalism turned lethal when it went international, ending up in a lost generation of Cold War spending that bankrupted the two International super-powers, threatened the extinction of all life on earth, and left the next generations neck deep in debt?

Is capitalism now an artiifcial obstruction in the new era of globalization?

Is capitalism completely incapable of putting the whole world to work in the increasingly urgent business of efficient planet management?

I think the thing to understand is ism’s such as
capitalism, communism, catholicism, for examples
are tools. Nothing more nothing less. They are tools
to achieve our goals. That is the value of an ism.
It is a means to achieve ones goals. But what if we
have lost track of that. What if we mistake the ism for
the goal, instead of the ism being a means to the goal.
and thus we take the ism as being the point of, instead
of means of. UMMMMMMMMM. This would explain the
collapse of an ism. Communism is an ism that made
the mistake of confusing the ism for the goal and
collapse because of that.

kropotkin

Agreed. But if the rool is no longer applicable for the job at hand, and has in fact turned destructive. Is it still ethical to apply it? Or should we invent a new tool?

MagnetMan:
Agreed. But if the tool is no longer applicable for the job at hand, and has in fact turned destructive. Is it still ethical to apply it? Or should we invent a new tool?

K: the isms of the world capitalism, communism, catholicism,
Protestantism, have all failed these last few years.
We are sailing into the future with a game plan that
has already failed. Now we can simply pretend otherwise,
but that would be foolish. We have reached the same
period of time that Rome did, after 3000 years of the
Egyptian, Greek, Roman ideals, the isms that drove
the ancient world died in the first 3 centuries of
of the Roman Empire. Which explains the rise of
christianity. It was a new ism that wasn’t tainted by
the collapse of the old way of life. We are right there.
Now a new ism must arise and takes its place as
the new ideology of the world and carry us into
the future. A change is a coming. Fasten your seat
belts kids, a new world is coming whether you want it or
not and its going to be a bumpy ride. We need a new tool
to carry us into the 21 century. the other tools have
failed.

Kropotkin

I believe the coming ethic will that of global stewardship and that the concept of custodianship will replace ownership.

To respond to the original question, I believe that, yes, capitalism is ethically bankrupt, but has been since its inception.

That said, capitalism, in one form or another, has persisted for millenia. I don’t see any reason for it to slow down now. I hope it will, but I don’t see it.

Someone please, give me hope.

In a sense it is an extension of jungle law. Only the greedy survive.
Capitalism definately had its uses in nation building and promoting invention. But like all things, too much of a good thing leads to decay. Capitalism is essentially short-sighted and does not plan for long-term sustainablity. That is why so many civilizations died out in the past. By the time they reacted to dwindling resources, it was too late for recovery and everybody ended up back in the jungle.

We are facing the same old short-sighted symptoms of decay today. The fuel problem is one glaring example. The efforts right now to replace oil are less than futile. Brownouts will become prolonged blackouts. Three weeks of blackout and huge cities like New York will have to be abandoned. Only trouble this time, is there is no jungle left to go back to
.

How is capitalism short-sighted? Your indicating that many capitalist countries died out in the past? For example… ?

I dont see how the fuel problem will lead to the fall of capitalism. The system has faced much worse problems than the shortage of a commodity in the past and survived. Technology my friend, technology. If the fuel problem persists in the path it is going (im not saying the gas situation is not a major problem, it is) new technology will be developed, which will harness a new fuel for which to provide energy. Oil, and its sub units (e.g. gasoline) will never cease to exist. We will always have it, and it will never run out. Just eventually the price of oil will rise to a point where alternate sources of fuel will have to be utilized. The oil market will at some point price itself at a price that makes oil use impractiable for common use. Thus, we will never run out, it will just be crazy expensive.

I believe that capitalism by its very nature is beneficial those who are willing/able to partake in it. People tend to act in their own self-intrest. people benefit the community around them simply by acting solely in their own self-interest, without conscious regard to community service. In other words, self-interest equates with general interest.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. (Book 1, Chapter 2)” Adam Smith, Wealth of nations.

Smith was not claiming that all self-interest has beneficial effects on the community. He did not argue that self-interest is always good; he merely argued against the view that self-interest is necessarily bad. Indeed, he often harshly criticizes those who act purely out of self-interest and greed, and warns that, “[a]ll for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.”

Thus, by acting in our own self-intrest, we provide others with goods and services that benefit them. Capitalism has his instruments to re-distribute wealth as well, thus benefiting those less fortunate.

That was trhe answer the Axtec emperor gave to the wood-cutter, when he warned His Royal Highness that the hardwood forests that used to surround the city were fast receeding, and if the empire did not invest in reforestation right away, it would be facing critical future energy problems which would force everybody back into the jungle - and leave future civilzations wondering why the empire went into decay and vanished.

Isms don’t matter; society moves as it shall, no matter what the ism. The change is merely cosmetic.

and we have no need for entrepreneurship, invention and the rapid growth of the technologies any more lets abandon it for ?death?

america made out great in that deal, moved about lots of little green pieces of paper :smiley:

no

you seem to have a great problem, with no answers.

i dont know how many times you can reinvent economics before you realize that your always going to have to be doing the same thing.

i cant see that many people supporting capitalism for the sake of supporting the idea. i mean… as far as i see people just care about having enough money to do what they want. what people want to do is an extremely flexible standard.

i think capitalism will be around forever because it is just buying and selling when people are independent of an agrarian culture. itll be adapted to fit future cultures (and already has. theses no such thing as a real capitalistic economy) but the concept itself unless theres another huge technology boom where even less work has to be done (which im sure will happen but as of now robot technology is moving steadily) is going to be around for a long time.

You are presupposing that mankind will engage in endless more generations of consumerism, simply for the sake of buying and selling things and keeping ourselves more or less mindlessly occupied. I suggest that is just an evolutionary phase, much like children swapping objects and playing marbles in the school playground. We tend to grow out of things and move on towards more complex interests.

Since leaving school we have been buying faster cars and bigger houses, chasing faster women, getting a corner office and prefered parking spot, while gambling with nuclear guns. Now this playing field too has become passe. Millions are growing out of that teenage phase of human development.

We are entering an adult era of responsible planet management. The name of the new game is called global stewardship. Vast technological challenges face us in educating, feeding, housing and supplying energy to exponential population growths in the coming decades. All present systems have become redundant. Urban sprawl, traffic grid-lock, decaying infrastructures, environmental pollution, water-shartages, energy crunches - all that keeps piling up. There is no room for short-term small potato corporate profit-making in this new world order - nor for government as we know it.

The raw materials, vast amounts of unemployed or under-employed labor and technological genius is just waiting for new orders. An artificial paper-barrier is keeping everything in check.

If anybody else is in agreement with this assessment, it would be nice to move on and discuss how the old capitalist system can be phased out while the new one is being introduced - or does everybody still think that capitalism is the be-all and end-all of everything?

I think the problem is NOT the ism.
The direction that the masses are mobilized towards, this is the big issue. It’s hard to turn 'em around again.

Mark my words:
The nations that have the most foresight and changeability, these will be the finest of the future.

But if there is an eco-system crash that kills a large percentage of economies on earth, I don’t wanna talk about it [because I can’t stop this ‘Moron-March’]. I want to talk about the supertech that would happen befor or after.

Here’s one:
AIAG, a government with an AI far more intelligent then a human, advising the human leader. That’d be really cool!

Also, with enough automation–civilian work would shift over to being more information based, and less physical-task-based. Maybe people would become part time processing nobes or something? =)

Heh…

We already have such a government in place. What we really need is one with a lot more spirit.

to some extent i think most people will go on mindlessly spending and selling. the average person wont have any hand in cleaning up the world unless thats their job to make money to spend. i know the system sucks but i dont think capitalism will go anywhere. its not the economy i dont think necessarily just the lack of planning. i know what you mean and i actually didnt realize it the first time i read what you said. capitalism is just about money not about surviva and its leading to the destruction of everything much the same way communism failed. people simply just didnt care enough to make things better. if youve seen office space the best line in that movie is the one which states that capitalism just makes people want to work just hard enough to keep themselves from getting fired. it gives no incentives to do more despite the robotic morons in corporations trying to motivate people with "casual friday"s and corporate picnics. i think society as a whole needs to be educated on things that actually matter. personally i think thats where the problem lies is in the education system. the one currently makes people into a working slave or at the most gives you the option of choosing to do something decent with your life though its mostly discouraged for more economical endeavors like sponsoring sports. the world doesnt need another athlete it needs humanitarians and scientists to usher in the newer era. otherwise we wont survive.

i mean youre right in the way the system works it ends up all wrong. corporations wont do anything to keep anything alive unless its cost effective. theyll advertise a cars crash test rating but not its emissions rating. im sure a lot of people have health effects from the polluted air theyre constantly inhailing but theyre more interested in surviving a car crash than surviving an ice age or cancer. then politicians wont do anything to stop corporations from being cheap. it all comes down to harsher standards. for a more complex world we need a more restrictive set of rules.

so yes maybe the concept of capitalism is providing the people with the mindset to nonchalantly go through life making a world safe for no one but in the end its the peoples responsibility to realize what theyre doing i think. you can blame capitalism i guess but i dont think as a core for whatevers to come later on will be much different than capitalism. if its not i dont know whos going to fund it. people for some reason dont like paying taxes… probably because theyre spent on weapons but thats another problem in itself.

Precisely. Education. Education. Education. Is the Key to a new Consciousness that can think outside the dollar.

Currently we have Headstart programs costing billions that teach one, two and three year olds to read words that they will not understand until adulthood. Thereafter we enclose them inisde classroom for six hours a day and indoctrinate only the left side of their brains with predigested information for twelve years and more - leaving the other side of the brain, from which all inspitration springs. to atrophy. Then we wonder why 40% of them drop out of school, 1% make straight A.s and the rest are mediocre - with half of them cheating at examinations.

Instead of inventive geniuses we end up with a vast population of semi-litrate fodder that feeds the mass production lines and only responds more or less robotically to consumer carrot stimuli.

If we put art and music and a few right brain exercises and drills into the education curriculum, the latent genius in every soul will spring back to life and the innate ethics that form our basic character will reveal a whole new world of creative cooperation.

yea american students are being outperformed all around the world. its kinda strange considering education as a science is more or less in its infancy and no one is really making any attempt at advancing it as far as i know. i look at kids and i wish when i was younger someone had figured out a better way of getting information to me rather than having to struggle to learn everything later in life.

i mean i dont know a lot about education but i know there are many things that couldve been changed for the better.

hey want to make a school that teaches kids to think rather than memorize? i want to i just dont know how.

Here is the basic curriculum of a homeschool self-tutoring program that we designed for all eight of our kids twenty years ago.
None of it is based on rote learning.
Text study is only introduced after puberty.

0 - 3 years. Breast fed mother care
3-4 years. Weaning period.
4-7 years. Sharing ethic.
7 to 12 years. Chore-based work ethic - arts and crafts - yoga - meditation and ESP drills and exercizes. (This develops intuitive right brain inspiration)
12 - 16 years. I or 2 hours per day left brain analytical text study.
17 years GED examinations.

So far the four oldest have passed matriculation with top marks. all are intellectually creative with impeccable personal and social values.

its more human and more cost effective also. its amazing that a system so simple could accomplish the exact same thing as the normal waste of time/money/social pressure we call education.

looking at that just makes me wonder about tapping into the potential of educating people. theres gotta me so much more that people can be.