Okay, we all have pondered the obvious question about what thing exists?
Does the Ego exist?
I have no faith in the existence of Ego at all.
Your ego wrote this post.
I thought I wrote this post and not my Ego.
And if it is as you say… “my ego wrote this post”
Then who is it that owns the ego.
Can the possessor and the possessed be the same?
I believe that the thinking is that if you use the word “I,” then you have an ego. But I like your questions. How does one separate that “I” from the rest of existence? Maybe it’s a convenient illusion and not the ultimate reality of holism.
Ego is a word that is tossed around a lot.
What is “Ego” if it is not “I”? What is “I” if it is not “Ego”? Why use a different word if they are the same?
If it is an illusion like you say and most people have an ego - then that does not make sense.
I do not think science has found any evidence of the existence of Ego.
Science, I believe, is leaning towards the illusion side of things (sorry to psychologists, but psychology is far from being a science).
I like to think of it in the manner of a paradox. An illusion does not make sense only if you must think of it as real, which is how our scientific mechanistic paradigm sets us up to think. But sometimes life and the world do not quite conform to that paradigm, which then leads to the discovery that reality and illusion might not be quite what we’re conditioned to believe or even force ourselves not to admit even in the face of all kinds of experiences that tell us otherwise.
Totally agree: psychology is not a science but people try to force it into the scientific mechanistic construct. Same scenario applies as just described. What do most people do when that pill doesn’t work or makes things worse? The doctor just changes it or prescribes a cocktail that s/he keeps tweaking until the patient finally seems to stabilize. Sometimes there’s a kind of placebo effect or else the patient thinks they’re getting better because they think they should; but most often it just turns into a neverending drug nightmare in the sense that it’s like Alice falling down the rabbithole getting larger and smaller in stages with no way out.
That depends on what you mean by “ego”.
Does the “I” exist? (Latin)
Does the “most central part of the mind; the mediator” exist? (Freud)
Does the “self importance of oneself” exist? (laymen)
Does the “self [individual identity of consciousness]” exist? (literal)
As to this question:
Because, “ego”, is a term from another language (Latin) for “I”.
It became used in western literature, and later psychoanalysis, as referring to the state of impression that the “I” perspective provides when able to reflect back onto one’s own self.
It became a means of saying that “I” looked at “myself” in philosophical and psychoanalytical categories.
In a manner, one may ask: Does the “speed” exist?
When I travel, does my speed actually exist?
Not really; my “speed” doesn’t exist as it is just a measure - an intransitive property - of my motion.
The only part that really exists is the motion of exchange; the speed is just a conceptual holding tank for the rate of that exchange.
Ego is just a term for the you that looks at yourself. “Ego” serves as a means of keeping that conversation at least somewhat intelligible sentence to sentence.
Just like, “speed”.
The motion, itself, is a rate of exchange because motion is a frequency.
So when you say the “speed” of my motion, you are just saying the same thing twice (just like “ego” and “I”, or “I” and “myself”), but the states you are referring to are different because you are referring to different points in time.
Thereby, “speed” and “ego” suddenly become useful devices for the conversation because the “speed” of my motion is far easier of a conversation to follow than the rate of exchange of the rate of exchange. Just as “ego” of myself is far easier of a conversation to follow than myself within myself, or the I within myself.
Like all human terms; it’s a label. It has it’s uses.
One of the more profound (and hard to grasp) quotes I’ve ever heard was:
To this day I will occasionally grasp what this means, but then it fades quickly.
I believe the ego exists, though.
OG,
Could you clarify which variation of, “ego”, you refer to for me?
I didn’t realize there were more than one…
I’m referring to the psychological concept. The area of the mind that is concerned with the positive emotional fulfillment of the self.
Wow. It’s kind of hard to define the ego. I’m not sure if the above is the best description, but yeah.
How about the most central part of the mind; the mediating network of the brain that processes the network for the individual identity of consciousness so to accomplish self awareness as a self contained unit?
That sounds Freudian. Is that what you had in mind? I would agree, probably more with that conception, having thought it over now.
What I was referring to with that quote would be more the Id’s affect through the Ego – that baser part of ourselves that in a way tricks us into saying/doing things out of a desire for emotional fulfillment. And I think this makes sense, because the Id is unconscious, so mediated through the ego it would manifest as, kind of as I implied, a part of the self ‘tricking’ the rest into thinking it’s a conscious decision – that ‘trick’ is the the ‘hiding’ of the Id within the ego.
I’m not explaining this very well. I apologize. It’s really a cool quote, though. I remember hearing it watching this documentary on the hallucinogenic experience.
Nope, you are explaining it dead on the nail.
That’s what we’ve been finding in neurological examinations.
Intuition has been brought back to the light of reality based off of that little function that you are describing actually existing neurologically.
The “dormant” (a misnomer of a name) network is being found to physically exist and acts as, not an ignition, but transmission system of the processing network.
And like any transmission system, damn this things speed is rapid.
But it’s rapid like an axle, in that it’s internal rotation (or cycle) within its components that define its neck of the brain is rapid in cycle.
But interestingly, more like a large ship, some of its “axles” (one kind of process function) rotate lower while some rotate higher.
Lower cycles move slower, while higher cycles move faster.
Some are incredibly high; hundreds of cycles per second. Meanwhile others are slower than our heart; one cycle per three seconds.
It’s really more apt to compare it to a bathtub in a boat riding in the ocean.
The waves cause motion that moves the boat, which contains a bathtub that has water in it that has many smaller moving currents within it and define collectively the response of the water in the bathtub to the motion of the waves of the ocean over time.
The wave, in this illustration, would be the existential experience of life.
The ego would be the categorical title for the current state of the water in the bathtub frozen in any given moment in time in concluding active response.
The id would be the currents of the bathtub.
Or, the water that hides within the water.
The ego that hides with itself.
That is really quite an effective analogy - the nature of balance.
From the way you’re speaking I take it that you work in this field.
This reminds me of a man I listened to give a talk here in Vancouver. I forget his name, he was a southerner. He’s part of the New Age circuit - I think Gregg Braden was the highlight speaker - but most of what he said was grounded, seemingly, in enough science for me to think it was worthwhile. From what I remember he was essentially saying the following:
The heart has an electromagnetic rhythm to it, irrespective of it’s actual beating (in other words you can change this rhythm without speeding up your heart, and vice versa) and that is controlled by the brain - or they act in concert. It was fairly intuitive from that point: when you are in a calm, sort of ‘zen’ state, this ‘heartwave’ takes on a perfect sine, whereas when you are angry it’s all distorted, and doesn’t look nearly as elegant. I wish I could remember how he measured this. Anyways his claim is that this state of the heart is the most effective/perhaps the only way of creating a standing wave in the body which entrains the rest of the many electromagnetic cycles - like the ones in the brain - in the body towards an elegance of energy.
Just as an offshoot, it seems to me that these energetic cycles which all exist in one body may be in fact be the evidence of the chakras of hindu/new age doctrine - the part that we can detect without getting into vortice equations scientists may or may not know. I don’t know.
So where am I going with this?
If I remember correctly, his claim was that these faster cycles are only accessible when you ‘align’ your heart to enable it, because the heart’s rhythm is somehow special. In other words the feats of consciousness that we only seem to brush into on occasion - like ‘the zone’ as I like to call it, as I am a basketball player - can only be accomplished through what boils down to an emotional consideration or syntax for traversing the different cycles that are all doing their own thing at the same time for a singular system.
Now… one time I heard this guy who believes the biblical flood was the destruction of nearby water planet, and that during this horrific time in our history there were actually benefits to a sort of Id-based positioning - a lower cycle orientation. I don’t know about the water planet, or whatever, but it seems intuitive to me that, regardless of how we evolved here, as humans we really have a tough time accessing the energy which is happening faster than the shutter speed for the everyday conscious mind - but we know it’s there, because drug use, meditation, and feats of competition allow us to glimpse at it, and in turn strive to go back. Perhaps I am just trying to rush evolution, or perhaps something happened to us, long ago, that totally smashed our ability to get into that state of mind. The conspiracy part of me wants to say we’re intentionally blocked by the devices around us.
Regardless, grace is something we’ve all experienced. I daresay we all love grace, but it’s an elusive one.
This is a little off topic but just trying to guess your age TheStumps.
I am generally good at this sort of thing but yours is a little bit of a mystery.
A bit of an Enigma but If I had to guess I would guess mid thirties.
No need to answer - I like mysteries.
Okay, sometimes I am a little bit too subtle (even for myself).
I will rephrase my last post to something intelligible. Does the Ego change with age?
From observations it does appear to do so.
If it is a simple matter of self awareness then there appears to be a situation of awareness of the self awareness.
I think Ego encompasses more than just self awareness.
I believe it encompasses more than the concept of “I exist” or “I am conscious”
I believe the question that is more appropriate is:
What is this “I” that I see that exists?
If I look at an apple I see red, stem, sphere, holes at top and bottom, etc and from this I conclude apple. The apple is constructed from various things that when I observe I see apple.
If the “I” looks at its self and sees its self then what does it see.
I do not believe it is a simple matter of "I exist”.
I believe it is the more complicated question of: What is this “I” that I observe.
The answer cannot be “I” as this makes no sense.
A camera cannot take a picture of itslef and it does not matter how fast the shutter speed is.
The sense of “I” or “Ego” does change in different situations and with age.
I guess that is what is suggested when we say “less self conscious”.
I have much to respond with (computer crashed an wiped out a lengthy response), but it will have to wait until later.
As to my age, since that is a quick response, I’ll be 32 in May so not far off there.
As to my occupation: I work in cable technical support (the guy you call when it stops working correctly). I take such interest in neurology and psychology because my spiritual focus is the human being itself existentially.
Or, as I put it more commonly, I am incredibly consumed by the relationship of me to myself.
Much to respond to, and I really look forward to it later.
Great discussion.
OG,
That is quite right, regarding the heart.
Just like the pistons in the car technically move faster than the car, so too the pulsing to and from the heart electromagnetically is more rapid than the pulse of the heart.
Good thing too; if it wasn’t, then we wouldn’t be alive…just like the car.
Or a wave, or air currents, or…anything.
The smaller components that “drive” a given system must, by default, move faster in cycle than the output of that same system.
The zone is one of many syncing patterns of getting the entire network to cycle its various networks in tandem in such a way as to allow for the most efficient flow of energy throughout the system for the purposes of the specific type of output at hand.
There is little difference between a meditative monk hitting their zenith than there is from the boxer hitting theirs, than there is from the basketball player hitting theirs, than there is from the archer hitting theirs.
The difference really is in what the heart rate is required to be for the task.
If you can sync the primary network paths into a series of cycles that lines up the cycles of both “ends” (a conceptual point representing two opposite parts of the total functioning network) of the overall network then your “lapping” (to borrow a nautical term of wave crest’s hitting in cyclic action) will allow for the most efficient transfer of energy throughout the system in line with the physical requirements.
Meaning, the blood flow which governs the muscular (referring to the body tissue response network) chemical exchanges needed will be in concert with the neurological (central nervous system - which includes the brain and many branches of communication structures throughout the entire body) pulses in such a way as to create a unit of production at its near optimum capacity.
Quite similar to the philosophy of Aikido and how it views lining up movement in tandem to increase efficient flow of energy to maximize output with little resistance to overcome in power or energy output.
Or to say it another way, the path of least resistance.
As where there is the least resistance, the more amount of energy can be spent on the output of the “task” rather than attempting to transfer energy around within the system itself.
Just as if you put a baffle in the way of a land mass that is next to the ocean, the waves coming in reduce in efficiency of their transfer of energy within their network and thereby reduce in their overall output potential due to their need to address the flow of energy within itself to work around the obstacle of the baffle (usually a shallow line of rocks in some fashion).
The same is true for sound, or air.
The greatest magnitudes of systems, the “perfect storms” (as they are called in weather), are always systems in which the flow of energy is not only high, but also clearly efficient without much disruption from the given direction of the various currents within working in near perfect sync.
It sounds superhuman, and in a way I suppose it is, but it’s not like what anime cartoons take the ideas up to or mythical legendary chi heroes.
But it is there and it happens all the time.
We are well aware of it, and many cultures over time have had their various rituals for attempting their varying ways of syncing their selves to the task.
Warrior cultures are renowned for their rituals to tap into their perceived sacred statuses of pure warrior as much as any meditative culture is renowned for their rituals to tap into their sacred serenity.
You would probably really like to read up on the recent findings of Stonehenge in regards to acoustical engineering.
I wonder if I can find it…
Having difficulty finding the original documentation I had found back a while ago, but this describes the concept nicely:
youtube.com/watch?v=uUUfeQ3nVu8
What this doesn’t describe is the affect that can take place.
If you put enough amplification (more drums, for instance), then you can generate frequencies at central locations that cause vomiting or unconsciousness.
The frequency of displacement can be so great that the open flames of torches around will begin a strobe effect as the near concussive force of the sound pulses.
This video is only one drum…just one.
There is a considerable amount of cannabis that exists around the area and for a long time it was thought this was to aid in invoking a spiritual high directly from the drug, but recent acoustic inspection brings up the idea that it may be possible that it was used to allow the capacity to withstand the pressure and frequency of the sounds without vomiting or passing out.
What’s the point?
Well, the point is that if you play a rhythm or beat in specific frequencies then you hit certain ranges close to the frequencies that the neurological system can achieve, and that if you do this for a span of time subjected upon an individual, that individuals neurological frequencies will begin to sync to the beat of sound they are both hearing and feeling (as such sounds as that at Stonehenge are far more than just audible).
Another good example is the binomial beat patterns.
And interesting quirk where two separate frequencies at a close cyclic distance apart, played out upon the human being, will create a third and non-existence beat frequency only in the brain of the human.
Essentially, the brain creates the third frequency by consequence of translating the other two frequencies simultaneously.
How does this relate?
Well, you can - once again - trick the brain by making the separation within ranges of the neurological network cycles and cause the brain to attach to specific shifts of cycles created in the binomial beat pattern.
People make far too many claims on behalf of these things, like that its capable of grand healing potential, or that it’s the magical frequency set of life, or similar, but it’s not that magical.
It’s powerful and functional, but it’s current interacting with current.
And in using such systems, you can lure the brain into specific states of interest (most common that people go for are theta wave frequencies because those are the ones that allow for decompression and rest because those are the ranges of the “dormant” network collectively when “idle” or “meditative”…when you are daydreaming, so to speak).
Anyways, indeed, cool stuff.
(Roberto, your’s is up next when I get some more time)
Exactly. Entrainment. This is why I believe there are devices out there which do this same thing, but in a negative way. But that’s… another story.
Regarding Stonehenge: I was familiar somewhat with what you were talking about before. I believe the what I’ll call ‘harmonic science’ is one of those higher (Siatd hates when I do that) orders of physics that was lost sometime in our prehistory. When you look at these different places like Stonehenge is begins to make perfect sense. There are astrological considerations as well, but the real pragmatic use for these things seems to be for, as you said, ritual drumming.
Something to note: something like 90% of the global ‘sacred zones’ where you find huge rocks assembled lie on what have been proven to be these energetic vortices that exist around the earth. I remember hearing about this one tibetan spot in a cave, in the direct middle of a vortex, where the stone had been indented with like a bum shape, essentially, because of not only how many people sat there, but the energy in which they did.
Regarding The Path of Least Resistance: One of the Mayan philosophies that existed within some of the communities was the belief that grace is a line that runs through existence. The Mayans are interesting not so much because of the calendar ending in 2012, but simply because of how accurate their calendar is. If you dive deep into the roots of where, and how they developed the calendar, you discover that, more or less, the story goes that some dude (‘a mysterious tall man’) gave them a couple ratios and more or less said ‘these define everything.’ One of the calendars (I don’t think that’s the best word) - one of the algorithms has to do with choice. By knowing certain things about the timing of the heavenly bodies, and whatever else, it was possible to act in such a way that would lead one towards grace - meaning you’re in sync with the universe. The mayans that followed this particular brand of living didn’t really condemn those who chose to do something that would take you away from the line - it’s your choice, that’s the beauty of existence - but it was sort of seen as like ‘hey, why not be close to the line? It’s where the good stuff is at.’
As a side note, I don’t really see the calendar origins are all that implausible. After all, Terrence Mckenna, through the use of only drugs, the jungle, and the I-Ching, deduced his Timewave - something that matches up perfectly with the Mayan Calendar. It’s also been said that if you get good enough at (a certain type) of meditation you can see the pattern in which existence moves. Apparently that pattern is the I-Ching sequence. The I-Ching is the oldest known pattern in the world.
Roberto,
Your issue is one that the terms “ego” and “id” (Freudian terminology) fails at helping with, because you are looking at the division of “ego” to “ego” and not “ego” to “id”.
Firstly, absolutely, “ego” changes with time; there’s absolute no way possible to not have this take place.
Our neurological map (the specific arrangement of habit for the neurological system to use for various processes) never stops changing so we will never have the same “ego” chronically by default.
Now, for the rest, I will admit that I am taking personal liberty of interpretation of data.
These are ideas that I have worked out for myself by examining what we know neurologically so far (which is getting quite elaborate by comparison to when I was a kid).
Your issue is the “I” that I observe.
This is a particular focal interest point of mine as I spend a great deal of time examining this effect specifically.
In a way, it is similar to that binomial beat pattern I explained to OG above, in that the “I” that I observe isn’t a real thing anymore than the third frequency is a real thing.
However, because it does exist within our system, it is therefore a real tangible thing unto our consciousness.
This “I” that I observe is what we’ll call (for no other reason than clarity of which “I” is being discussed at which time) the panego (pan-, meaning: all, or every, + ego, meaning: “I”).
The reason for calling it the panego is that ultimately what it is is a collection of your ego over all time that you have been in existence as it associatively relates to yourself without introduction of sequential processing.
It’s like a cloud version (referring to data map terminology; e.g. cloud navigation on websites) of your self memory rather than a linear version which you call upon regularly.
The neurology of memory is what provokes this idea.
The neurology of memory is that your brain doesn’t keep anything in any other tense than the present tense because that was how it was experienced at the time that it took place.
Your memories of yourself are a massive collection of you in the “now”.
But you aren’t in those “now” moments at this moment when you look in reflection at your panego with your ego.
Your ego is the the current “now”, while your panego is all previous ego “now’s” mashed together in what you call, “yourself”.
Because they are all in a constant present tense, a consequence is a sense of eternal state of “now” for your panego and that it is the same as the ego, but yet you feel that it is different than the ego because you as your ego can look at your panego and your panego cannot look at your ego.
So, you must be ego, but then again, you definitely recognize the panego as you as well.
It twists our thought like an alternate universe when we try to conceive of this tandem relationship, but there it stands.
It’s what I believe causes the sense of a “soul”, or “spirit”, or “essence” of our selves and explains why this “soul”, or “spirit”, or “essence” feels like it’s eternal.
It might as well be to our brain because, as I mentioned before, the panego is in permanent present state.
In fact, so is the panego of everyone you have in your head.
John next door, your parents, you, the list goes on.
The total collection of everything that you have ever known John to be is stored, each moment of John, in present tense in your brain’s memory.
Like a lightscribe (almost literally such) record of what position the system was in during the event of observation.
In a way, like a record’s grooves, but all grooves mashed together all at once in a geometric form that requires too many dimensions of geometric planes coexisting to properly visualize as a model, but can be tangibly understood as a “sense” or “notion” or “feeling”.
Because if you took all of the grooves of a record all at once, then you would have the panego of the album.
This is what is left with us after someone dies; their panego in our memory.
The fuzzy collage of present tense states in the millions upon millions.
And that’s just other people.
Being inside of ourselves we have so many more pieces of sensory input to account for as each memory of our self (ego) that the total collection of all ego’s over time (panego) is as real as the eyeball we look at and see in the mirror and as equally intangible as that same image.
And because this panego sticks with us even after people are gone, it would seem that they are still present in some form; their “soul”, “spirit”, “essence” lingers in a sense to ourselves because of the eternal sense of the present tense storage of memory.
So too is our panego to our conscious ego.
We appear as though we suspend time when we reflect on our panego; this panego seems transient.
And yes, both grow with time.
Our panego consequently grows like a never-ending photo of Earth where the shutter never closes.
Our ego grows like the Earth; slowly changing it’s appearance and movement - it’s network and behavior.
Our id grows like the inside of the Earth, transferring energy within it around in constant flux and reaction.
The difference, of course, is that unlike the Earth - we can observe our own states of all three from the ego.
A true priceless experience in my opinion.