Does everything in the universe vary?

  1. Everything in the universe varies.

  2. No human recognizes a thing devoid of invariants.

These are contradicting statements.

Which is true?

If (1) is true, then no human can recognize the things in the universe.

source: INVARIANTOLOGY posted at: wwf.edula.com

If 1) is true, it just means that there is no fundamental, a priori groundings of any kind. It means that reality is a radical flux of experience, and that dividing the world into discrete, self-existent “things” is only an expedient way to organize and arrange the raw fragments of experience. “Things” are not anything more verdical, and certainly not anything more self-existent than the constructs of a functioning intellect.

Stella - If everything varies (which is your claim) it must vary from something else. How would we know if it does if we can’t recognize things in the universe?

An invariant is a constant. To be devoid of invariants is to be without a constant. Objects without a constant. What the heck does that mean? Are you trying to say that we cannot discern a difference if it does not exist? Your second statement is not true. Nor is it false. It’s nonsensical. Can you restate your second premiss without the double negative? If you are applying logic (truth values) to these statements, then it should be easy enough to do.

Thanks in advance.

I think #1 is true. I don’t think we need something to be constant in order to recognize something of it. It just needs to seem constant from our vantage point. In the end, we’re not so much recognizing “it” per se, but we are, in our own limited way, recognizing an effect of “it.” Even if the effect is variant.

If one is true AND two is true…then no human can recognize anything. But if one is true and two is false, we’re fine. The two statements are not contradictory.

If we knew how we can talk of objects when everything is actually in flux, we’d also know how to reconcile QED with General Rel. For some reason I feel like saying we are god. But I’m not sure why. you put a spell on me.

I personally think not. There must “be” or in better words “not be” a fundemental structure that neither “is” or “is not”.

  1. No ideal is a variant.

  2. Invariants are the means of the variants.

I don’t really like posts like this because you can’t really possibly get a conclusion. If we can’t recognize variants, then we won’t even notice variants. Even if they do actually exist. So to our 5 senses, no there are no variants in the universe. You can think as long as you want on the possibility of there being variants but there is still no sure way to know. At least not untill our brains evolve enough to where we can detect variants. Untill then, this thread is pointless.

I personally believe we evolve to only what we need to survive. I think our brains found a way to recognize variants to a certain extent. The rest is above our needs to survive as human beings. This is my logical guess, but I have nothing substantial to back it up because I can’t possibly back it up.

vary?
on the contrary, i beleive it is all one-its all relative.

Just because everything is one does not exclude the possiblility of there being variants. If everything is relative than if one thing changes another thing balances the change by also changing keeping a ONE universe in perfect harmony.

P.S. - Also, after thinking about this thread a little further … can you or can you not recognize your own baby picture? Your body is a good example of a variant. I think if I didn’t know who the baby was I wouldn’t be able to associate the baby to myself. On the other hand, I could most definately recognize a picture of me from an older age. So you see, we can recognize variants to a certain extent. Thus, making 1 true and 2 true/false. We can recognize the object all the way up to the point where it loses all resemblance of the original object.

yes, but the fact that everything varies makes it one.

Beware, we have yet to resolve whether variants are a fact or not. Also, invariants can create a one.

but of course it is…do we really need an explanation for the universe if he havent yet found an explanation for ourselves?

It took me awhile to reply to this one, I must admitt.

I think you are wrong that WE (as a whole species) don’t need an explaination to the universe. Although, as an individual I can say that I do not need an explaination to the universe; I make my own rules. A unicorn is a good example. I can tell myself that unicorns exists and I can believe myself, but once I try to tell this to another person I automatically need an explaination. So, as long as you are talking to another person you need an explaination to the universe. The freedom of individuality is endless.

…then wouldnt we be dealing with “individual beleifs” rather than “variation in the universe”?

Ok, let me tell you what you are trying to say:

  • Variants are a fact. And …

  • We do NOT need to have an explaination for it.

I am sorry but this is rubbish, my friend. To MYSELF I do not need an explaination. To a philosophy forum you have to back yourself up, whether you like it or not.

So back yourself up about variants being a fact or go think about it by yourself somewhere and don’t expect other people to agree with you. Untill you give me a good proof that variants exist I will not agree with you.

i never said that i beleived there were variants…we cannot know anything for sure-EVER. that was my point.

I think I stated this as my very first reply to this thread.

then what exactly are you argueing with me about?

I missed this at first, but this what I was arguing about, originally. I said it wasn’t a fact. Then you said …

I believe you said you believed there were variants.

  1. Invariants will be known again in a research.

  2. Every human to learn to do anything again needs to know the invariants.

  3. nothing could be done again in an universe devoid of invariants.

  4. Invariants are the means of the variants.

  5. A characteristic is a mean of the states of a variant.

  6. A statistic is a mean of the states of more than one (not all) variant.

  7. An ideal is a mean of the states of all variants.

  8. No ideal is a variant.

  9. Every human to investigate/describe/understand anything needs to know the ideals.

  10. Ideals are the mean to investigate/describe/understand the variants.

  11. No human invents ideals.

  12. No human recognizes a thing devoid of invariants.

  13. No human learns to do anything again in an universe devoid of invariants.

  14. No process can vary an invariant (the absolute truth).

  15. Absolute truth is the base of every science, philosophy, religion and other spiritual matters.

  16. The ideals are the mean integrating the intellect of all men and women.

  17. The invariants are the bridges to unknown from known.

  18. The ideal universe is conserved.

  19. The ideal universe is is not subjected to evolution.

  20. No human makes science or philosophy without differentiating the invariants from variants.

  21. Every reason/logic/experiment/analysis is to recognize the invariants of the variants.