Does Immanuel Kant want to have his cake and eat it too?

Immanuel Kant was concerned to be a scientific thinker, whose views were fully compatible with the latest Newtonian learning of his day and also to insulate belief in human freedom and morality, in God and immortality, from the encroachments of science. This leads me to wonder whether he wanted to have it both ways, like most dualistic thinkers, so that even this greatest of all philosophical intellects ultimately came up against the general limits of philosophical thinking.

Does Kant want to have his cake and eat it too? Sure he does. So do all of us. Human beings are paradoxical. We know that we, like rocks and shoes, exist in a world of material objects now governed by post-Newtonian scientific laws. We are subject to the same natural laws that tell us precisely, say, how far my shoe will travel if thrown by me across the room. The relevant factors are considered: the weight of the shoe, the wind resistance, and the amount of strength that I can muster for the throw. The shoe has no say in the matter and neither do I. I cannot suspend the laws of physics and (in that sense) I am not free.

At the same time, whether I choose to throw the shoe across the room or to put it on and go out to get the newspaper is up to me. It is exclusively my totally arbitrary decision. I often do not know which I will do on any given occasion. Neither does my shoe. The difference between myself and my shoe is the “free will” that determines that choice in me which is not found in the material realm, but rather in the part of me that is in the noumenal realm – and which is not subject to material determination, according to Kant. Some recent findings by cognitive neurologists raise doubts about this, but for now this general picture will do. “People will do what they want to do and no one knows why,” as my grandmother (who was a Kantian without knowing it!) used to say. On Kant’s theory of freedom, see Henry E. Allison, “Kant’s Theory of Freedom” (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1990).

Determinists and some materialists claim that I am a material object exactly like my shoe, in the sense that all of me is material. There is no Kantian noumenal part of me. No part of me is beyond the reach of the material or mechanical causation which operates in the empirical world. Yet for reasons of biology alone, it is useless to think in such terms. In light of current theories of the inherent uncertainties of psychological and even physical reality, it may make no sense to think in such outdated Newtonian terms at all. See Bryan Appleyard, “Understanding the Present: Science and the Soul of Modern Man” (New York: Doubleday, 1992), pp. 158-187.

Paul Davies writes:

“Most physicists would claim that the conflict between determinism and free will is irrelevant because we know that the quantum factor disproves determinism anyway.”

“God and the New Physics” (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1983), pp. 139-140. Do we?

By the same token, Marxist theories of the determining forces of history and the primacy of material reality, understood in nineteenth century terms, are rendered absurd in the light of contemporary scientific knowledge:

“In contrast to the mechanistic … view of the world, the world view emerging from modern physics can be characterized by words like organic, holistic, and ecological. It might also be called a systems view, in the sense of general systems theory. The universe is no longer seen as a machine, made up of multiple objects, but has to be pictured as one indivisible, dynamic whole whose parts are essentially interrelated and can be understood only as patterns of a cosmic process.”

Fritjof Capra, “The Turning Point: Science, Society, and the Rising Culture” (New York: Bantam, 1982), pp. 77-78.

An organism is a much more dynamic “thing” or entity than a static physical object. No one disputes that the “meaning” or explanation of an organism‘s actions, why it does what it does or why we have the brains that we do, for instance, is only “determined” as part of a “story” of life unfolding and adapting to an environment, which need not mean exclusively Darwinian reductivism. This involves ambiguities and changes, uncertainties and complexities, a never-ending “dance” of a sort. Perhaps the key insight of psychoanalysis is that, in this dance, both partners – the subject and the interpreted environment – are within the psyche.

Yet this story that explains my aptitudes and capacities, possibly my “freedom,” is not itself a material object that is causally determined, nor is it a “force” exactly. If freedom may be thought of as explicable in terms of something like the “plot” of that story which the organism creates, then this can not be captured in simplistic causal or determinate explanations, especially when it is far from clear to anyone what is meant in saying that a cause “determines” an effect. It may help to recall my earlier discussion of the tendency of characters to rebel and create their own plot twists in literature.

Gregory Bateson states:

“[There is] a dividing line between the world of the living (where distinctions are drawn and a difference can be a cause) and the world of non-living billiard balls and galaxies (where forces and impacts are the “causes” of events). These are the two worlds that Jung (following the Gnostics) calls creature (the living) and pleroma (the non-living). [There is] a difference between the physical world of pleroma, where forces and impacts provide a sufficient basis of explanation, and the creatura, where nothing can be understood until differences and distinctions can be invoked.”

“Mind and Nature,” pp. 7-8.

With regard to the mysteries of human motivation, the literary artists – and this is superlatively the case with the greatest of them all, William Shakespeare – have taught us that the “truth is an image fragmented in a hall of mirrors.” In his philosophical work, Paul Ricoeur has written of “enplotment” as part of the process by which the paradox that says “stories are recounted whereas life is lived” is resolved in terms of a unity between recounting and living. Living a life and understanding that life is a kind of “recounting” or narrating of that life’s story, a process in which therapy may be important. It may be also that the best way to understand freedom is in such literary terms, as a form of narrative creation within the constraints provided by the empirical reality revealed by science. (See my essay entitled “The Galatea Scenario.”)

Come to think of it, this sounds like a very Kantian solution after all.

Friedrich is like that oracle at the state fair: drop a quarter in him and he’ll tell you anything you need to know about Kant.

its usually best to start a short paper like this with not such a controversial comment. i would hardly call kant a ‘scientific thinker’ (and if i did, i would certainly flesh out what i mean because that comment in itself probably needs another short paper). second, his views are certainly not compatible with Newton, more of a reaction against newton claiming space and time are absolutes. correct me if i misunderstand. or at least throw somebody a bone by what you mean by that.

this is an outcome of the his copernican revolution… not a goal. maybe you want to say he set out from the beginning to deny knowledge because he was deeply religious and wanted room for faith… but that would require another even longer short paper, and still wouldn’t invalidate his success of drawing the boundry line of our knowledge.

what do you mean?

Kant was, in fact, a scientist who taught physics and astronomy at a university level before teaching philosophy. He also explicitly set out to insulate belief in God, freedom and morality from the scientific skepticism of Newton and Hume, and pretty much succeeded in that effort. That is what I mean – and what he meant, when he said that he “sought to limit knowledge to make room for faith.”

Did he hope to have his cake and eat it too? Perhaps. Hegel thought so because he found dualistic thinking unacceptable and attempted to get rid of the Kantian noumena and replace it with an “ideal monism” in which (by way of Aristotle and Spinoza) being is distinguished from existence, the concept is distinct from the object, which is nonetheless nothing but the instantiation of concepts: Thus, a stone is nothing but a collection of specifications of universal concepts, such as hardness, grayness, etc.

Anyway, happy new year folks. :laughing:

kant explicitly set out to see how synthetic apriori propositions are possible. AKA: what are the necessary conditions for a possible experience. you are flat out wrong by saying he set out to insulate belief in god from skepticism… and it discredits you. he is not a philosopher of religion. but there are religious implications.
moreover, hegel was a grade school principal… what does that have to do with anything? pre-Critical kant and Critical kant are two vastly different people. everybody knows that.

i still don’t know what you mean by saying you think he had his cake and ate it too? the saying doesn’t even make sense …of course he’d eat the cake.

Moonoq:

Sorry, but YOU are flat wrong when you say that Kant was not a philosopher of religion. He most certainly was. In fact, he wrote a work specifically entitled “Religion Within the Province of Reason Alone” which was not about sex.

All of his work – according to Kant himself – was designed to show that, because there were limits on what could be known with certainty, no one was irrational in holding specific “beliefs,” including religious beliefs.

Kant is indeed a highly religious and moral thinker. His concern with a priori synthetic truth was a part of his larger scheme, as outlined above. But I can see that you are getting upset, so I will not return to this thread to allow you to post what you like about Kant. It will not change the facts.

I invite the reader to come to his or her own conclusion.

Happy new year and maseltov!

P.S.:

Did Kant want to have his cake (a complete epistemological system accounting for phenomenal knowledge that excludes non-material causes or freedom) and eat it too (while still postulating a noumenal realm from which freedom and morality might be derived)? Answer: Yes.

Any remaining questions might be answered by consulting the works I quoted in my post.

I already said: his goal was to see how synthetic a priori propositions were possible. AKA: what are the necessary conditions for a possible experience. this is the purpose of the KrV, his main work.

unfortunately you think kant’s entire purpose was to insolate god and allow rational belief… this cannot be something you have gotten from any of the Critical works, which are his main works, or anywhere else in kant. i am guessing this is something you have gotten from a commentary and an interpretation. it colors your whole view of all of kant, none of which you have read.

  1. kant is an epitemologist/metaphysician
  2. you decide that by looking at his main works → ie. KrV
    2a. by your rational kant is a philosopher of art
    2b. you don’t understand the difference between being a philosopher of religion, and having religious implications.
    note: all epistemology has religious implications.

i don’t know how causality and no freedom in the phenomenal realm and an unknownable noumenal realm would be having your cake an eating it to, which i am still not sure what you mean by.
perhaps you’ve forgotten a very basic condition of everything that comes from the second critic where freedom of the will and god are postualted …it is that they ought to be postulated as existing, for morality. not that they do.

now you may run off like a kid whose fallen off the playground climber

Friedrich:

About the ‘insulation.’ I recall Kant saying something to the effect of ‘whether or not God exists cannot be known.’ Let me ask you a few questions.

By setting out to find the limits of human knowledge he created a two part dead-end. On the one hand he fashioned skepticism, while on the other he ate his own words. And to emerge victorious from his own dilemma, he changes clothes and reverts back to agnosticism.

Simply said: God cannot be known to exist. God might exist. I cannot know what God is and at the same time know what God might be to exist.

A vicious redundancy, don’t ya’ think?

Enter the ‘thing-in-itself,’ a concept I simply cannot wrap my brain around. However, aside from my own arguments against this concept, I have accepted that Kant was telling white lies so that he might insulate religion.

I am torn between this maneuver and the only thing which saves me from recoiling in horror is consequentialism. I say: it cannot hurt to believe in God. Why not do so?

What say ye?

i will answer your objections swiftly and convincingly.
i don’t think there ever arises a question about what god is: its the basic deist god prominent in the period, an all powerful creator, an absentee landlord, you see.
so correct: we cannot know if god exists, he might, let’s convince ourselves he does for morality…
but it is never a question of ‘what god is’ in the sense of: does he have a white beard or gray? in fact i’m not even sure what you mean by suggesting that god would be something other than at bottom a basic deistic god. beyond that it is merely a matter of attributing theistic properties, which would makeup the difference in people’s different notions of god.

its easy. it is the object of sense perception without having been taken through the faculty of sense perception…
if you think the tree looks like it does without anyone being looking at it… you totally ignore all role the mind has in the formation of experience.

fortunately history hasn’t seen kant with such destructive bumbling idiocy as you and frederick, that he may bring us closer to truth.

no, this misses the point of the prolegomena and the grounding… kant admits god cannot be proven to exist (in this he agrees with hume), that’s why there is no god in kant’s categorical imperative… kant’s variation of the golden rule is supposedly arrived at via reason alone, there is no god in kant’s morality…

exactly… esse est percipi… berkeley revisited sans god…

-Imp

yea, obviously.
you’ve chimed in and said nothing.

A word on Friedrich’s behalf.

Friedrich was teaching graduate students about Kant while you were still riding your big-wheel. I have known him for almost four years (on the internet) and have watched him take on entire armies of anxious fledglings such as yourself. I tell you this now to save you the embarrassment and humiliation that is waiting for you around the corner.

I’ve had qualms with him myself, and while I acknowledge that he is my senior I have found a comfortable spot to ‘agree to disagree.’ I think he grants me that same respect.

As for my own understanding of Kant, I spent some time with him years ago and gathered enough information to form my own opinion. I certainly have not read any of his entire major works and I’m not going to start now because you wave him around like he’s the secret to the universe. Maybe this is good, maybe bad, but I found Sartre, and he sealed Kant’s casket as far as I’m concerned, as well as just about any other philosopher I am aware of. I could wave Being and Nothingness around too, but that’s the pot calling the kettle black. I don’t do that anymore. I’ve grown up.

This is precisely why I don’t do Kant. Its the same shit I hear from Dodo in my Portable De’trop thread, and it makes absolutely no sense.

Truth is experienced. How do you know what is without taking it through sense perception?

We will start here and I will walk you through, baby steps.

no, you were claiming that kant had a god behind his morality, he did not…

-Imp

if by embarrassment and humiliation you mean show me wrong… well thats the point isn’t it? i invite that. but he scampered off, i guess like a PhD, grad professor, and kant specialist, which you say he is…? i’ll be honest, i think you’re lieing. but it wouldn’t matter.

dude. exactly. that is kant’s point… you can’t. you can’t know anything about the noumena.
the thing in itself exists because he doesn’t think the tree ceases to exist while you are not looking at it… there must be a cause of the object of sense perception.
if you want to argue that kant has taken the a priori (pure) concept of causality and applied it in the noumenal realm, then good luck, you have a lot of work to do, report back in 10 years and i’ll be interested to see how you’ve progressed. you should also note that this would be HIGHLY HIGHLY unoriginal, as Schopenhauer already half-assedly tried to do it, and ofcourse then Nietschze copied it. and they may be right.

feel good, you now know more about kant than at least one person here. and you obviously realize what kant’s thing in itself is.
it looks like its gonna be me giving the baby steps. and it won’t be free. (note: it will be free)

IMP don’t be silly. i said no such thing.

De Trop:

Thanks. Yes, we can agree to disagree. As for the likes of my interlocutor in this thread, it is not worth it. (For one thing he has yet to learn how to spell “lying.”)

Anyway, here is what Kant himself says, in his greatest work, on the subject that – our friend here believes – he does not discuss, which is theology and the nature of belief in God:

“But surely, people will proceed to ask, we may, according to this, admit a wise and omnipotent Author of the world? CERTAINLY, we answer, and not only we may, but we MUST. In that case, therefore, we surely extend our knowledge beyond the field of possible experience? By no means. For we have only presupposed a something of which we have no conception whatever as to what it is by itself (as a purely transcendental object). We have only with reference to the systematical and well-designed order of the world, which we must presuppose, if we are to study nature at all, presented to ourselves that unknown Being in ANALOGY with what is an empirical object, namely, an intelligence; that is, we have, with references to the purposes and perfections which depend on it, attributed to it those very qualities on which, according to the conditions of our reason, such a systematical unity may depend. That idea is entirely founded, therefore, on the employment of our reason IN THE WORLD, and if we were to attribute to it absolute and objective validity, we should be forgetting that it is only a Being in the idea which we think: and as we should then be taking our start from a cause, that cannot be determined by mundane considerations, we should no longer be able to employ that principle in accordance with the empirical use of reason.”

Immanuel Kant, “Critique of Pure Reason” (New York: Anchor, 1966), pp. 453-454 (F.Max-Muller trans., 1st ed. 1781; 2nd ed. 1786), at A: 694-698; B: 722-726.

Friedrich,

It simply seems to me that Kant is saying that God is a formal presence, sewn into the coherence of an intelligible world (i.e. we don’t have to extend our knowledge beyond the field of possible experience to admit him); whereas you seem to try to make this into dualism. The noumena of God manifests in the human perception of phenomena, by analogy. It is a recursive logic.

Dunamis

ah yes, a valid point. how strange of you to have searched through KrV for a quote.
i won’t need to remind you again of the difference between being a philosopher of religion and having religious implications. or maybe i will.

I believe, off the top of my head, that the exact quote was “I have found it necessary to limit knowledge to make room for faith”. What is the point/difference? here…

No. what limiting goggles to look at the KrV through. what a terrible tunnel vision. the Copernican revolution, transcendental idealism, the role of the mind in experience, 500+ pages of the most important epistemology ever all because he wanted to save god? i wouldn’t let you within voice’s reach of a paying student who thought you had anything to teach.

The KrV ‘designed’ for that purpose? Is this quote you give next going to go to prove such a ridiculous assertion? (you’ll see the answer will be, no)

no where here does it show what you say: that Kant specifically set out for the purpose of insolating god from skeptic/scientific attacks.
to say you ARE a philosopher of religion is to say, first and foremost, you are not a philosopher of epistemology. to say i ate an apple, is to say it wasn’t an orange. otherwise, when fitting kant into a nice little mold, you would say he is an epistemologist foremost. now you can’t really do that with kant, because he wrote about so many things, including religion.

here is a quote that will absolutely refute you. It is from the Introduction to the Critique of Pure Reason under the subheading ‘The General Problem of Pure Reason’ …which is also the general problem of the entire work, which is a critique of pure reason, which the title doesn’t hide. (Kemp trans p.55)

he goes on to say:

you would infact have a better argument if you said kant’s purpose was as a philosopher of math. but it would still be destructively limiting.

the question of the KrV is not ‘how do we save god?’, it is ‘what can we know’ or ‘what are the necessary conditions for a possible experience’ (that is how Strawson has interpreted the general problem of pure reason, in The Bounds of Sense)
if you insist on calling kant a philosopher of religion because he had a profound impact in every philosophical movement in nearly every category after him, including philosophy of religion, then you would be wiser to first call him an epistemologist, metaphysician, philosopher of ethics, philosopher of aesthetics, and then, oh wait, philosopher of math, and then philosopher of religion.
as it is you have a seriously critical case of tunnel vision. the purpose of KrV is not merely to save god, not mainly to save god either.

Moonoq:

Your ignorance is beyond remedying in this setting. If I am wrong, so are most of the Kantians I know, but don’t worry about it. Whatever you want to believe is fine by me.

Yes, the First Critique is concerned with the question of what we can know, but only because Kant is concerned to DEMONSTRATE THAT IT IS NOT IRRATIONAL TO BELIEVE IN GOD, WHICH HE DID. Hence, by limiting the scope of what is certainly knowable, he made it clear that most important things in life are “plausibly” believable, if not knowable with certainty. This includes the postulate of a God that “orders our perceptions.” (Kant)

The reason why Kant is regarded as a dualistic thinker is precisely because he divided the existent into the knowable or phenomenal realm as distinct from the unknowable or noumenal realm. Hence, the need for Hegel’s monistic idealism as an attempt at unity in response to this “bifurcated condition.”

Not only was Kant a philosopher of religion, he wrote an entire book on the subject that you falsely and erroneously claimed that he ignored and, in addition, the purpose of his main works was indirectly religious too. In other words, you are wrong and egregiously so. But don’t let that bother you. You stick to your guns.

Here is Kant again:

“God is the ultimate law-giver and guarantor of the victory of good over evil … To found a moral people of God is therefore a task whose consummation can be looked for not from men but ONLY from GOD HIMSELF. … The wish of all well-disposed people, therefore, is that the 'kingdom of God come, that His will be done on earth.”

Immanuel Kant, “Religion Within the Province of Reason Alone,” in “The Philosophy of Kant” (New York: Modern Library ed., 1949), pp. 409-411. (Carl J. Friedrich, trans.) For a scholar who agrees with me, see julian Roberts, “German Philosophy: Kant” (Humanities Press, 1988), pp. 50-67. Manfred Khuen, Kant’s biographer seems to agree also, so does Kant himself in his letters.

Any questions?

kant doesn’t claim that as his purpose anywhere!
(i already see you starting to backtrack…)
quotes to support your religious goggles need to do more than show that Kant talked about religion. they need to do even more than show that kant wanted to rationalize belief. they need to show that it was Kant’s purpose, and for “All of his works”, as you said.
feel free to backtrack. i would if i were you.
you should also do something to show why when Kant outlined his objective in the Introduction to the KrV under The General Problem of Pure Reason… he didn’t mention any religious objectives. and you should address my quote where Kant outlined his objective (to inquire ‘how are a priori synthetic propositions are possible’) and why math, natural science, the pure structures of consciousness and their forms should all be underwritten as objectives to a purely religious objective.

the third question in the Prolegomena is how a science of metaphysics is possible. as you should know this includes freedom of the will, and immortality, as well as god. the popular explanation of the KrV divides into three questions, and in one of the questions, as one of three parts of that question, concerns god.
by limiting kant’s purpose to insolating god, you ignore freedom of the will and immortality as the part under the critique of metaphysics. more importantly, you ignore everything to do with the first two main questions(how is math possible, and how is natural science possible).
there is no doubt in my mind that your religious goggles are your interpretation of how Kant is to be read. unfortunately for your argument, there is nothing in Kant that would lead you to believe that that is how he wants to be read.

if Kant had written nothing else but that book then you would be right to call him a philosopher of religion.
you need to call him first and foremost an epistemologist with no religious objectives (and this is obvious from the KrV, his defining work, and the quote i gave where he outlined his objectives). furthermore, you would have to look at the second and third critiques, and call him more than a philosopher of religion - a moral thinker. and so on down the line.

there has never been a doubt in my mind that kant was happy to insolate religion. but a copernican revolution in philosophy, the reconciliation of rationalism and empiricism, and sketching of a map of the structures of pure consciousness, etc etc etc, even the drawing of the categories which was ‘harder than crossing the arabian desert’ or something, was not achieved merely because he wanted to say science can never tell us god doesn’t exist… that would have been easy, if he even needed to.