does information ‘exist’!

does information ‘exist’!

just that really, although the question is a tad more involved than we at first may think. so i am looking for definative answers what are your thoughts on this? do laws exist, have they informantion, do objects have infomation, what is that information outside of the human mind.

thank-Q

Information does not exist outside of the human mind. It takes the human mind to create any piece of, “information,” and without the human mind to comprehend said, “information,” that information is meaningless.

so what exactly is it in the mind? does potentiality not contain it nor laws. i can see that if laws are resultant then info need not exist in them, but would think that some laws would ‘exist’ before the product of them e.g. the universe …or by what do quantum energies decide to mirror or not etc.

I’m going to dig up some stuff I read about “the informational content of perception” and get back to you with the specifics, but my opinion, due to having been indoctrinated with these articles on perception is that yes, information does exist.

information exists the same way the self exists - only as long as someone is aware of it.

Yeah - laws of nature are descriptions.

There might be something better than the laws of nature we know, or think we know.

But the laws we know are descriptions. They do not tell us what has to be, but what is, as far as we can tell.

Basically, it is the mind that makes these pre-existent laws actual information. The laws can exist by themselves (i.e. gravity) without the mind to determine what gravity is or give a word to it, but it fails to qualify as actual information until the existence of it has been determined.

Obviously, before the term, “gravity,” was created, people understood that if they throw a rock straight up into the air above their heads, that the rock would come down and hit them on the head. But, the terminology was not necessary for this understanding. What was however, necessary was the experience of being hit in the head by something yourself (or being told what would happen if you tossed the rock straight into the air) and that was information.

It is kind of a chicken-egg, thing.

For example, if I look outside, I see a tree and the fact that the tree is outside is information to me. Now, a blind person standing in front of the same window would not see this tree, so while the geographical position of the tree and its relation to the window remain unchanged (for either myself or the blind person) the blind person is unaware of the tree, so it is not information to the blind person. (Unless, I tell them about it)

Now, imagine that the blind person goes outside and starts walking toward the tree and runs into it. It is at that point that the tree becomes information to the blind person, though the tree had been there the whole time.

for sure yes, descriptions of something! …and what is that description composed of? the first event in existence would act according to laws that presumably were present, if not then why is there not only chaos. i mean why singularity what makes energy behave in that way.

what was that experiment where it was shown that light knows where it is going, i cannot remember but am intrigued by the it knows part. i don’t mean obviously that it thinks but is info inherrant in the light. then there is relativity and all sorts of QM phenomena that appears to act as if decisions are being made.

we can affect things by observing them, sure that can be done in experiment i.e. without a thinking being making the observation, but in QM apparently our decisions change the outcome of events.

hmm not sure still

Well, there might have been only chaos then.

That information that informs us does not exist outside the mind in the same ways phenomena do not exist outside of minds. There may be a ‘thing that becomes information when perceived in itself’ but it is not information without a mind.

But then there is the issue of things like DNA. Information was conveyed before there were minds - via plant DNA, for example…or is information merely a metaphor in cases like this?

Or can we redefine information as something that sets off a complicated set of a effects if something very complicated interacts with it?

DNA passes on rudimentary information. Information beyond human perception would just hypothetical without tangible proof.

Is this the same quetzalcoatl from nightly.net?

It seems like you are trying to avoid the contradiction between the two sentences of your post by using the adjective ‘rudimentary’. Was DNA, before humans were capable of perceiving it, information, or not?

I was responding to Q’s:

for the first part of my reply. The second part concerned what humans can not perceive (if there is any) through other emirical sources.

aufbau87

no it is not, CR, twc, open.net i go to, but not there ~ is it a good forum?

to all

so basically we are saying that reality is a bit like a sheet of elastic, dna would stratch that in various directions as would any chemical interactions. to us it appears like that is conveying informations but is is just changing shape. same goes for computers and the human brain, its all just changes ~ the elastic of reality being stretched in all different directions. same also with big bang and collapse etc etc.

a law like e.g. a force in one direction creates its equal and opposite, is again simply the elasticity of physics.

this purely physical explanation does not completely explain it though! we relate to things using information, the mind does not work purely by the mechanisms of physics. the subjective information in the mind is something, it may not be physical in the classical sense but it does ‘exist’ in some way.

are we humans the only exception to the case? i think not, on the most subtle levels of reality everything is simply sets of relationships between energies, which in turn are expressions of the infinite [the latter part is my own unsubstantiated belief on the matter]. something determines those relationship, most can be seen as reactions to one another and hence part of the ‘elastic’, but somewhere along the line you need something approximating a prime mover ~ not in the religious context but more in terms of fundamental laws.

still we cannot show that any such info actually exist? if not that suggests to me we have a massive hole in our understanding and the way we determine such things.

It seems to me there must be some information and a set of laws or some biological logic in nature outside human minds. I mean organisms got along alright before humans. They managed to organize themselves in their embryology to have two eyes, on each side of a nose. They managed to organize in their evolution.

“Outside of human minds,” is a fair statement.

However, nature does not become information without a mind, human or otherwise.

Nature allows for minds but dosnt require them.

Quoting for truth.

Nature and the mind are not mutually exclusive, agreed.

However, nature and information are not mutually exclusive.

Information and the mind are.