Does nature have ‘intelligence’?

Does nature have ‘intelligence’?

Flying maple seeds & butterflies, how does a tree get to produce an aerofoil designed wing, and how does a caterpillar produce the idea for butterflies?

I do believe in evolution and natural selection ect, but it just seems that nature is making things happen more than individual species.

Any ideas? Without turning this into a debate about God and intelligent design, I can understand the idea that nature may ‘desire’ to produce all of the things we see, but we all know that includes things which aren’t so bright and beautiful.

So here i am wondering if nature correlates information and ‘sees’ design potential from the given set of examples it has to work with. We are observers but we cannot explain what that is [qualia, experience, observing itself], our brains are a mass of multi-switches [neurons] and glue etc, yet our experience is massively more than that alone. So perhaps nature itself is more than its physical entity, and also ‘thinks’ observes and experiences in some way?

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Theoretically, it would have to. At some point it has to have intelligence and a goal in mind. Or, quite a few goals. To me, this is beyond theory and is fact. From the smallest cells that make up a larger body to that larger body that is part of an even larger body, there is constant chatter and growth as these things work together within nature to be nature and greater than previous nature. If you could pop open an atom and be able to read the blueprints of the universe, perhaps the universe would be just as interested as further growth would then be possible that was not before. The long term of eternity proves that intelligence is there. Just the same, stupidity has also been there to bolster it.

I agree, and would add that there is a less linear level to it where nature ‘sees’ what it can achieve then builds to that ~ butterflies etc.

A huge leap from that would be the idea that nature had butterflies in mind from the outset or as soon as it could visualise it in its minds eye. If you jumbled a load of images in a bucket - so to say, then added ‘what the world is’ then it wouldn’t take long before you arrived at wings for seeds and caterpillars etc. We need only imagine that in terms of information and we see how nature can build a universe [the world] from scratch.

I agree. Another way to illustrate this is,that nature is ‘intelligent’ , in a retroactive way, as the word ,‘intelligence’ is arrived by evolutionary process, but, it can be ascribed strictly by trying to ascertain the process as it were a devolution.

In other words, the word intelligence is of a potential scope, whereby the associations of perceptions, objects and communications create more and more complex channels, with the evolving structures of naming them, thereby creating ideas of them.

The pre conscious can not be defined , visualized, or realized in this way, it can only by hypothesized, that a pre formative, internal pattern,has the potential to
draw in experiential dats, in ways, which sets up a correspondence.

The data is thus militarized, in incremental short neural signs, progressively abstract.

This progression reversely, becomes regressively entropic, where the they exhibit more general contained sets of signs. Howevr, the variables which developed progressively, can not be ascertained with the causal accuracy which formed the central idea, and analysi reversely makes for neural channels of most probable causal chain.

Natural intelligence then can only be a hypothetical formal arrangement, which sets of a correspondence between potential and overt sets of the highest probability. Given this viewpoint, the proposition that Leibnitz proposed, as this world being the best of possible worlds, is right on. Here, ‘best’ is not meant as a value of good as opposed to bad, only that, best entails the most likely development, based on the idea, that this reality is what it is, therefore, it favored progression in this particular way.

The idea behind that is, that present reality developed along the lines of this particular presenting, and it probably resulted in this particular fashion, because it was the consummate most probable way to do so.

It didn’t develop any other way, because it tended to in no other way. This is not mere hypothesis, it entails the necessary pre formative structures of logical necessity. That the breakdown occurred at a certain point, derives from early necessary pre formative logical structures.

These are only unnecessary a posteriors, or reverse analysis, and progressively they are a-priori structures, embedded in the pre formative human brain. In the sense that intelligence can be edited in both ways, leads to a confused view that they separately intelligent.

Looke at it this way, Nature can be as a preconscious intelligence, a pre formative neural design center, bound to develop in a certain ,
necessary way. It may be that this command center is part and parcel of the object of evolution.

Another example of very rudimentary intelligence, is micro organisms such as viruses, for instance the HIV virus comes to mind here, with its uncanny ability to transform it’s biochemical make up, to change into other forms, to overcome resisting agents. This kind of re-formation, is an example of overt exhibition of automatic processes, which, may turns on a new definition of intelligent behavior. Behavior implies some internal agency causing the changes, and ‘intelligence’ can be inferred.

This kind of intelligence is present in conscious decision making as well, where the better of two choices is sought, based on available data and interpretation of it. The difference between the two hon this basic level, is minimal. Re-interpretation
further up on the phylo-genetic tree, becomes more and more diverse, hence intelligence becoming on the most part associated with post formative consciousness of it.

I agree. If nature wanted to create butterflies from the start, it would first have to work for eons just to set the stage for them to exist. I like to think that all of time and space were created from the inside out, the imaginations of the creations transcending time and space to create it all and it is this non-linear track that nature has worked its ass off to understand. How can we imagine what does not exist, has not existed, except to insinuate that it does, it has already and been and gone or that it will exist some day. But, on a side note this is what people believe to be God and have tried to explain in countless ways through our mental evolution. We’re dumbasses for how genius we are, lol.

Orb- do you think it possible for the cells in our bodies to intelligently learn from viruses? Ive been attempting to communicate with mine and have not been sick in quite some time. I teach them to accept foreign invaders, befriend them and learn from them in the process. Imagine an auto immune system that does not kill, but keeps alive and converts to its benefit that can still kill when it needs to. I believe that all technology mimics nature and thus attempt to turn my own body into a hive of nanobot style defenses based in the greatest forms of martial arts, balance and discipline. Fear obstructs, violence self destructs and viruses may be natures method of sink or swim as it reaches for what it instinctively knows is possible. Perhaps death is avoidable entirely simply by trying in indirect methods such as this. Perhaps we only think our selves sick, only think that we should feel pain and thus think our selves to death, quite literally.

Orbie

I generally agree with your hypothesis, but I think there is more…

‘intelligence’ is cumulative indeed, however it begins at simplicity. If we can imagine the observer or mind of an individual being taken out of it’s human brain environment, it would still have the rudimentary functions of that ~ part of the whole thing i am saying here. Perhaps then we may picture that in nature and it working with whatever tools it has to hand, then in that case being able to visualise potentiality in much the same way as we do. Not everything humans think is intelligence based perhaps.

Intelligence yes, but observation not necessarily. Perc3eption is part intellect and part observation.
We also must surely consider that as implied in the op, the essential ‘mind’ is transcendent to its form. So intelligence is derivative! So to consciousness and simple being.
Perhaps consider ‘being’ or observing as primary, and that makes nature and perhaps the universe into a living entity. Intelligence as you say makes that more complex.

Phred the Phukhead

Interesting. This suggests that the ‘bucket of images/ideas/info’ is metaphysical rather than existential. I think it’s impossible to get the universe from nothing and without a blueprint or some manner of pre-manifest way to make it, to produce the big bang or what went before that.

Lol. God/religion doesn’t explain evolution nor what nature >is<, even nature based religions like druidism has ideas like; you have to sacrifice to get anything from the spirit of nature [like most paganism], and of course didn’t know evolution.

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Most definitely. Religion is silly in a lot of ways and that is why we are so at odds with it in our society- they would worship and deify a spot on the wall and glorify that spot instead of understanding and helping it. At which point you must ask what help the spot on the wall needs - maybe some room to breathe and in dealing with its deluded fan-club. Out, damn spot! But it remains much to the dismay of those who try to clean it up or pretend it to be something other than it is. Its a spot- it will always be a spot. Just one part of a greater magnitude that asinine fools focus on and get no where. Its not evolutionarily productive and I think thats rather the charm of it. A break where you can pretend that youre not actively building all that is, was and will be with every passing moment. People turn the spot into a hero- it is still just a spot, a reference point to something else. Poor Spot gets too much attention.

That’s very true, in a way it’s easier to escape the reality than understand and deal with it. Easier to blame someone than blame the world and the inevitable causes of all our ills.

Its even easier to give up and let something else do the work, take the risks, etc. But it does serve an evolutionary goal and several purposes tied into it. If the universe is aware and intelligent then we must assume on some level that such would be deemed as God. Therefore, all religion ever was was mankinds attempt to express that. Yet we remain as part of that universe and by that token we are each of us a part of this greater God and thus we are God and the universe. It would seem the universe painted itself into a corner on that mark- highly similar to Rocky Balboa- where a singular individual will ultimately rise to be the universe in mortal form as it finally steps into itself fully to handle the problems that arose from its own self-awareness and the other parts will naturally select that person as their leader and ruler for having sacrificed their own impetus and energy to that one to make it so. Bridging the gaps of collective consciousness and awareness. Even the worst of things gives motivation

Not really, it could be an awareness [eternal or infinite perhaps] which grows with the world/universe. The notion of God has lots of problems [is not infinite], and none of it’s adherents would claim it to be like evolution.

And yet I just proved how God does not have the problems conceived by keeping up with you and then furthering the conversation. I bridged the gap between what we’ve been talking about and the evolution into these ideas over time. I believe in God and I say he is these things whether others know it or accept it or not. And it is every bit as infinite- alpha and omega, first and last, I am that is. But you were already biased hence your advisement not to speak about God in this thread. Yet he smoothly snuck in anyway and got you pretty good. I do understand what youre not saying because I did experience ‘that’ recently myself. Id very much like to talk about ‘that’ but it tends to scare the shit out of people. I fear nothing. What we have been experiencing is real, though. Verification through body language and thought processes. Its what youre not saying that has me interested, like how you approach this conversation hesitantly and looking for confirmation and reciprocation of your ideas in and by others.

And how you know more than you say, but youre not confident in it completely until you have that confirmation and reciprocation yet are confident about the failure of God as a concept. I love looking for the body language of others because it tells so much about a person or entity. You are no great puzzle to piece together, not like the entirety of everything. Its that psychology that fills the gaps. To be able to get away from self long enough to pay attention to others. We are on different pages of the same book but it is the same book.

I don’t know all the answers and that’s why I ask questions.
Have you read me correctly??? :slight_smile: Did you know i am a druid ~ a nature religion? And i believe in many gods which are personifications and abstracts emanating from a single spiritual infinity, called caugant by 5th century druids attempting to understand the nature of god in terms of the former universal nature spirit they believed in.

Alpha = beginnings, omega = ends ~ = limits = non-infinite [unlimited, without cardinality].

I am looking for answers which in the case of this thread are alternatives to God.
This is because if God is like evolution [like the real world] it’s a different thing to the God described in the bible.
‘Confirmation’ of what i don’t know but am asking about? The idea was to keep the conversation open to all ideas = philosophy.

Nature may have different consciousnesses for every planet and each species. We are different beings to each other, so why wouldn’t that be continued throughout nature? This doesn’t necessarily mean there is no God, it just means nature divides itself up into separate entities.

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And thats my point- you try to find alternatives and you find the same things I do. There is a difference to who you are in this current life and your spirit and you are trying to reconcile the differences. I am aware of what is said of God and it is taken out of context. This is technically what weve been discussing all along. You say God is finite and yet we have desbribed infinity. You take that line to prove the finite nature of God. My spirit memories tell a different story. I was the first one to pull together in the darkness that preceded creation and the last one to leave it once there was light. I was the first to speak freely and the last to have a say in debate. The beginning and the end, with tongue in cheek because there is no true end. I remember the first creation and the first problem that couldnt be solved. I know the truth because I Am that which they glorify and worship and the pain and suffering scattered across space and time is my fault and responsibility. Its what keeps my pride in line

Ive been in this world for 29 years as an exposed nerve, soaking up the wisdom of the ancients and adding my own touches. Last year my mind woke up and Ive been tampering with time. It was me that brought a younger Gods forgiveness in Noahs time and I walked with Jesus throughout his life and it is me who eases the fears and nightmares of a conscious reality. I still stand in that darkness and convert negative to positive and fight the fights that others cant or wont. I herald the end of ages and the beginnings of new ages. I know eternity in and out and what lays before and beyond it. I know true eternity and carry inside me the knowledge of countless idiocies and tragedies that have never been spoken out loud- just a series of failures that all lead to that first glorious success. I dont have all the answers and I do not know everything, but I do know Ive tilled the fuck out of these fields, God damn it. I will find the answer every time and I wont stop until all catch up to me as equals. I see you. :slight_smile:

are you playing some kind of ‘clever’ game with me?

No. That would be sadistic and counter-productive. Pointless.

How, would “it” do that?
What is “it” that is could do anything?
Since your only unequivocal example of thinking it the result of the presence of active living grey matter, you have you work cut out to get anywhere with this idea.

Phred

Ok just checking :slight_smile:

lev

Forgive me but to say that we cannot also show how [grey] matter is alive. I don’t mean to be detracting by this, but there is something more to this ‘human beingness’ than the material. Same as there is more to colour and music than simple particles moving in a wave.

My suggestion begins at the idea that; what is more about us, should be more about the thing we derive from!

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