Does Objective Reality exist?

Does Objective Reality exist?

  • Yes - Regardless of our subjective perceptions, Objective Reality exists
  • No - Objective Reality does not exist (please post a reply to explain this one)
0 voters

First, this is not a poll to ask whether or not we are subjectively accurate in our perceptions of Objective Reality. Even if we are Matrix-like pods hooked up to a giant computer, that STILL is an objective reality.

So please vote, and if you vote “No” I would be specially interested in getting a reply explaining the position. Personally, I can’t imagine someone arguing that Objective Reality doesn’t exist.

Thanks! :smiley:

I couldn’t answer the poll, because you left out position 3: “The question has no meaning.”

navigator im interested in hearing you explain that.

I don’t understand. Unless you are adopting the Zen-like “unasking”.

english.bham.ac.uk/staff/tom/unask.htm

We have objects,
they seem to be separate from us because
we can touch/interact wih them,
therefore object-ive reality exists for us.

We have been “conditioned” to see this reality as one objective reality. Until you have the ability to realize, you are nothing but thought, you create your own reality, you are in control of your own thoughts and reality and you are the ultimate observer, you will always see one objective reality. I am not denying it exists, I am denying it exists within me. I believe objective and subjective reality’s are equal opprotunity employer’s. You can’t have one without the other! Just as it is Objective, it is Subjective. :smiley:

Very well.

“Objective” reality as usually understood refers to a reality that exists in and of itself, and is not dependent on perception. Yet perception is the only means we have of obtaining information about reality. To observe “objective” reality without observing it is impossible, and therefore we have no way of deriving any information about any reality that exists apart from our perceptions, if indeed it does exist.

That includes both determining that such reality DOES exist, and determining that it does NOT. The question of whether objective reality exists is therefore one that, in principle, can never be answered, even partially.

A question that can never be answered is one that has no answer, and is therefore a meaningless question.

Allow me to try to clarify this. The problem I have with it is that touching/interacting with something is the definition of “subjective” not “objective”. I know that we have to use our subjective experiences in order to decide whether or not we believe that an Objective Reality exists, but they should remain separate in my opinion.

The belief in an Objective Reality seems fairly simple: it says that regardless of my abilities to touch and interact with objects, the objects have some independent existence. Simple yes?

An opposing view/philosophy I’ve heard of states that objective reality doesn’t exist because everything is somehow created within our own brains; so that when a person dies, the entire universe just blinks out of existence. This would be an example of a “subjective-only” reality. I’m not sure what the name of this belief is called (perhaps someone could let us know).

So that’s the question: independent of your subjective experiences, do you believe that reality exists objectively.

To elaborate a bit more:

Our experience runs something like this:

  1. We experience sensations.
  2. We employ cognition to recognize patterns in those sensations, and to construct models of the apparent world experienced through sensation with predictive power.
  3. We communicate with apparent others who also claim to experience sensations, and observe similarities between our own sensory experience and what is claimed by those apparent others. We refine our cognitive models accordingly.
  4. A common cognitive model employs the concept of an “objective” reality from which sensory experience derives, and to which it refers. This model helps to explain the persistence of sensory-experience patterns, and also accommodates the appearance of multiple subjects.
  5. Upon further elaboration and refinement, some argue that this “objective” world really doesn’t exist, but that sensations are all in the mind.

The only reality we know is our own experience, encompassing all of sensation, cognition, imagination, and emotion. Everything else is not primary reality, but a model of primary reality that attempts to predict its behavior. “Objective” reality is such a construct: a cognitive model of the world we experience. It is a useful model at times. To ask whether it “really” exists, however, is to ask a meaningless question. It is of value not for its truth, but for its utility.

I would say that the definition of “objective” is that it exists without the subjective. You say that “you can’t have one without the other”; I would say that the belief in Objective Reality is that “you can have one without the other”; that even if all subjective perception where eliminated in the universe, an objective reality would still exist.

That’s the point/question: independent of subjective perception, does Objective Reality exist?

All of these things I would say are subjective:
“to see”
“to realize”
“control”
“observer”

This is why I wanted to post this topic. It seems like we are constantly describing the “objective” by what we perceive which seems like a contradiction of terms. :slight_smile:

“Everything else is not primary reality, but a model of primary reality that attempts to predict its behavior.”

This was a very hard sentence to read. I could argue that an Objective Reality would be the Primary Reality, not the subjective one.

And “everything else” is a “model” of “primary reality” (which I believe you are referring to here as subjective reality)? what, everything else models itself after my subjective reality?

“…that attempts to predict its behavior…”: what, inanimate, unconscious objects are trying to predict their behavior in the future?

This is way too hard.

The question we are asking is kind of like the question “does infinity exist?”.

Can we subjectively “see” infinity? No. But can we ask the questions:

  1. Do you understand what I mean by “infinite”?

  2. Do you think the infinite exists?

Our subjective limitations in experiencing “infinity” do not limit our ability to coneptualize its existence and enter into meaningful duscussoin about it. Yes?

You could, but if you did, you’d be arguing for the primacy of cognition over sensation. The only way that we actually experience “objective” reality is through thinking about it, as a cognitive model that helps explain and predict the behavior of the world of sensation.

You’re asking Ultimate Questions About Reality. You should kind of expect them to be hard. :sunglasses:

Well, the simple answer is “yes” – infinity exists, because mathematics exists, and infiinity is a concept within mathematics. It is part of the cognitive model set that we apply to understand the world.

“Objective” reality is also part of that cognitive model set, and exists as such. The question of whether it “really” exists, however, is meaningless.

Correct. But we must always recognize that what we are talking about are thought forms. They may have some useful applications to the world of sensation (and in fact both inifinity and “objective” reality do). But the question of whether they “really” exist is meaningless.

Is any possible question about whether or not anything “really” exists in any way meaningful? Like asking the question, “does the foot ‘really’ exist?” for example; is it meaningful? :-k

Well, that depends on what you mean by “really exist.” The word “real” has a number of possible meanings, and with some of those the question is meaningless, but not others.

For example, I can say that silk or plastic flowers aren’t “real flowers.” That’s not meaningless at all. There is a viable distinction to be drawn between genuine flowers and artistic replicas of flowers.

If I “see” something out of the corner of my eye when there is nothing there, then it’s also meaningful to say that what I saw wasn’t “real.” I thought it was one thing, but actually it was another. Similarly, if I imagine that someone is expressing anger at me, when they’re really angry at someone or something else, then it’s meaningful to say that their anger at me is not real.

Where things get tricky is when we try to apply similar thoughts to the universe as a whole, or to all of the world perceived by the senses. Is that world “real”? Well, yes, in one sense – we experience it, therefore it is real. Duh! And we can also make predictions about how it will behave, using cognitive modeling. That systematic behavior is also “real,” because we observe it.

But it is one thing to say that something is “real” because it is observed or experienced, and quite another to say that something is “real” even outside of being observed or experienced. How in the world would we ever verify that?

Looking out my window, I see a tree. I also saw a tree that looked much the same yesterday. I expect, with much confidence, that I will also see a tree that looks much the same if I look out the same window tomorrow. I can say, using shorthand, that “there’s a tree outside my window.” What I mean is: “If I, or anyone else, looks out this window, they will see a tree.” The act of looking out the window (or looking from some other perspective, or feeling the bark, or climbing, or smelling the leaves, or hearing the leaves rustle in the wind) is a crucial part of what I mean by saying “there’s a tree outside my window.”

If I say, “There’s a tree outside my window, and it is there even if I never saw it and nobody else did either,” then I’m saying – what, exactly? I can’t be talking about looking at the tree, or feeling it, or hearing it. And in what other mode does the tree exist? Thinking about it, maybe. So the only meaning the above statement has is, “One may think about a tree outside my window that one has never seen.”

Reality exists for us in four modes: sensation, imagination, cognition, emotion. When we say that something exists, we mean we can sense it (see it, hear it, touch it, smell it, taste it), or imagine it, or think rationally about it, or have feelings about it. And that is all we mean.

The “objective universe” appears to which of these functions? Mostly cognitive thought, and to a lesser degree, emotion. We can’t sense the “objective universe,” nor can we imagine it (since that requires imagining a sensory experience), but we can think cognitively about it – so that it what “objective reality” is: a cognitive structure in the mind, used to model the world of sensation.

There is an objective reality that exists outside of our minds, but we will never be able to see it through any other pair of glasses (unless you smoke salvia…that’ll do it.)

Objective reality being the world that exists outside of our mind. If it didn’t, then the universe would have to appear after man evolved and thought the question in the first place. That, of course, isn’t how it happened.

I mostly agree with Navigator. Once again, relativity is involved. I see a tree, a termite sees a $30 million dollar mansion.

Setting aside the fact that humans are not the only creatures that experience and think, how do we know that isn’t how it happened? Or rather, how do we know that it doesn’t all come together of a piece? We don’t SEE the origins of the universe, we THINK those origins, as part of the cognitive model we use to make sense of it all. In fact, that’s the only sense in which the words “man evolved” are true. Maybe the universe, together with humanity, just puffed up all at once this very second, and all of our memories are false.

Yay, let’s hear it for bug’s-eye views. :smiley:

True, there is a possibility (somewhere in the ballpark of 1/pretty-damn-close-to-infinite).

This would also mean it puffed up in a way that made it look like it gradually became this through billions of years of painfully slow and slight changes. Why not puff up looking brand new?

This is like arguing Satan planted fossils to convince us of evolution.

OK, I think we’ve got something here: a connection between your example and mine, thereby showing “meaningfulness”.

Your comparison between “real” flowers and “artificial” (plastic, replica, etc) flowers is an isomorphic example of the difference between “objective” reality and “subjective” reality.

“Subjective” reality is artificial reality. It’s a replica of reality existing in our minds. It is actually a bunch of synapses firing, but do we “see” a bunch of synapses firing? No, we see any number of things including what could be an image of a flower.

The “actual” “real” flower exists outside of our artificail subjective perceptions. This is the definition of “objective”: “outside of our perceptions”.

The difference between the “real” and the “artificial” is meaningful according to you. And that’s probably a very accurate description of why the difference between the Objective and the Subjective is meaningful: we discuss what subjective ideas are closest to or farthest from objective reality.

Applying it to the “universe as a whole” is no different than applying it to a flower. It’s just the example of the flower carried over into everything.

Note:
To explain “isomorphism”:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isomorphism

quote:
“A solid cube made of wood and a solid cube made of lead are both solid cubes; although their matter differs, their geometric structures are isomorphic.”

I agree that relativity is involved in subjective perceptions. Unfortunately, that’s specifically what this thread is not about:

“…this is not a poll to ask whether or not we are subjectively accurate in our perceptions of Objective Reality…”

Not that I’m against bugs-eye-views! :wink:

On the point of the thread, “Does Objective Reality exist?”, you seem to be at disagreement with Nav.

And I’m not trying to be disruptive. I just want to point out that the actual point of this thread should be the “primary reality”.

Actually, it’s impossible to assign it any probabilities, and it’s no more meaningful to say that the world puffed into existence just now than it is to say that it really exists with a real history. All of this is unverifiable and has no significance in terms of any reality we actually experience.

If I were actually arguing that anything of the sort “really” happened, instead of pointing out the meaninglessness of the word “real” when applied to everything, yes, it would be.