Does the Church have a future?

Speaking from a European perspective, following talks with Christians I know here in Germany, I have come to question the future of the church. We are already seeing churches being given over to secular uses, parishes shrinking and being merged, a lack of Pastors and Priests. What future does the church have?

The state of our knowledge today in all areas, and the abundance of information, requires us to update spiritual topics. We cannot stand still with knowledge as it existed 2000 years ago and even longer. Today we know much better how complex the experience of people is. We understand how complicated the brain is, and partly how we think. We also know how entangled we are in confusing structures and which powers have their hands in the game. We have even developed various theories about the reality behind the “control panel” that our brains produce to ensure our survival. And, most importantly, we know that we know nothing, but that our questions far outweigh our answers, and do not diminish. The crude statement that “God has helped me”, in the face of this enormous entanglement that is our existence, is felt like a slap in the face by people who suffer hardship.

The consideration, as far as it happens, to still go to church depends in the first place on whether it can offer something that one needs. It is not so much whether Christians are convinced they have something to offer, but how it is viewed from the outside. Christians say, “we have a message!” But what is that message really? It is basically the statement that there is hope in repentance. Just as God “turned” man’s crime into salvation, so man must “turn” in his way of thinking. But what is this hope? A life after death? An escape from the eternal fire? It doesn’t sound very appealing.

Through the great amount of information I received, through books, lectures, and exchanges with others, I evaluated and examined my own experience. It was the training as a nurse for the elderly and, of course, dealing with people in the borderline of life that caused a great change in my attitude. A better understanding of people, of their circumstances, of the powers that direct our lives, of biology, of nature, and ultimately, of how stories come about that have a lasting impact on people and societies, have helped me look at faith differently.

There is no doubt in my mind that life is mysterious, the emergence of life in the diversity that has existed, onto a lonely planet into a vast universe is something special. That this development brought forth an intelligent being, who is also conscious of his consciousness, who can reflect on all that can be experienced, is something special. We do know that there may be other animals that are sentient, but for me that only adds to the specialness of life. So, it’s no wonder that humans have seen this specialness as a calling from a Creator, a responsibility to all that has been called “good.”

Even if the idea of a creation as described in the Bible is a somewhat romantic idea and does not correspond to reality, as geologists and astrophysicists testify to us, we can conclude that we have been given something wonderful. Moreover, it must be noted that, however it came about, the blueprint for all organic life was present in the rocks, dust, chemicals and energy before any planet was habitable. Life originated on a planet that was just a glowing mass for a very long time. The duration of “creation” was not conceivable to the Old Testament authors, but the principle of emergence was. Of course, the mythology of creation was written at a time when much had been overcome, life was not the struggle it had been ten or twenty thousand years ago. The Ice Age was long gone, as were some devastating natural events that cost so many lives. This struggle is not included in the first creation account, but it was not that important to the generation that was supposed to read the scriptures.

The story of Adam and Eve was a new story that then continues to the creation of Israel, providing a narrative that explains Israel’s calling to be the people of God. In essence, the interruption by the Flood story is a divide that separates the legends of the antediluvian period from a historicizing narrative of the period that followed. We are still not speaking of history in the sense we understand it today, but we are getting closer to it. It is still legendary figures whose story is told, and in doing so, history contains lessons that are outdated, but reflect the times well. In part, they still speak to us because they are basically about man himself. People then also had a different idea of God, more in line with the paradoxical living conditions and experiences of the people of that time than the idea found later in the New Testament, let alone today.

We must not disregard the fact that we are now 2,000 years removed from the accounts of Jesus, and in between there have been experiences that gave little hope that the coming of a Messiah had changed anything. Rather, the Church has been caught up in the power struggles of the intervening period, but the worst wars and atrocities are not uncommon even in the twentieth century. And yet the Church is partly responsible for the coming of the Enlightenment, even if it has at times resisted new knowledge. Paradoxically, the Church itself was often partly responsible for the greatest resistance to it.

It is debatable whether the Enlightenment or the Church ultimately made society more peaceful. The fact is that the implementation of the newer knowledge helped people overcome material problems, and that before the two world wars there was a flourishing of art and literature that was idealistic in nature. Unfortunately, the wars resulted in many ideals surviving only as ideologies that caused untold suffering. Only the fright about what man is capable of and what he has done let a relatively peaceful time follow them, which, however, was by no means without great suffering here and there either.

That is why faith is met with a certain amount of scepticism in modern times. People who have had good experiences with it are in the minority. There is also another minority that has experienced extremely bad things with the church, which is becoming more and more known. In between we have people who have no experience with the church, or only marginally, through wedding, baptism, funeral, and confirmation. I know many people who say that their life is influenced by Christianity, but that does not mean that they believe in it.

So, what affect will the shrinking church have on western society? Will the evangelical and fundamentalistic groups take over and gain any prominence in public life?

What will happen to spirituality?

History Repeats.

The American Empire is repeating the Roman Empire history, almost to the letter. We will see the Second Coming. We will witness the American Empire give birth to a Puritan religion, Post-Christianity 2.0. After all, Christians are/were the ones to resist and overthrow the tyranny of empires, when injustice and Dark Ages reign supreme. In Europe? It’s hard to say. Perhaps the Davos Group will again sacrifice Europeans to another holocaust and world war. When you are mere slaves to Globalist dominion and power, do you really have a vote or say, in your destiny?

Okay to that, but what does it have to do with the church?

Well, that would be the end of it all, or Armageddon, or whatever …

After all …? Not sure I understand the connection.

“again”?

And I’m not sure you understand the Davos Group. When I read that Leaders emphasized the importance of placing humans at the heart of global cooperation efforts, or that democracies should reach out, understand, and collaborate with nations that do not share their values. Or again that
there were strong calls to build a multilateral framework that works for all. I think their intentions are quite the opposite to world wars …

The church in the US has already split, belief-wise, into new age progressives and fundamentalist conservatives. I see the future of the church here as more of the same.

You don’t see the connection between the Church and the Roman Empire?

Do you know what Catholicism is? Do you know who Christ is? Are you intentionally playing dumb with me? I will assume you are.

The arguments given in this piece have nothing to do with the catholic church, but everything to do with a Republic which overstretched itself:
https://charliestephen6.medium.com/7-revealing-ways-america-is-collapsing-as-rome-did-68a57e493ce3#:~:text=Historians%2C%20philosophers%2C%20and%20many%20great%20thinkers%20across%20time,Republic%20as%20a%20template%20for%20their%20new%20government.

  1. Cheap Foreign Labor
  2. Controlling People by Debt
  3. Printing Money Does Not Save Economies
  4. Underestimating Barbarians
  5. Training Enemies in Advanced Warfare
  6. Big Military Budgets Bankrupt Big Countries
  7. Sharp Decline in Patriotism

So, if you can add something that the church contributed to the fall of Rome, that might be interesting. If you could show that the church is equally contributing to the fall of America, that would be even better.

Oh, and by the way, don’t insult me!

The Catholic Order, which eventually became “The Church” as you referred in your title, grew inversely to the decay of the Roman Empire. As Rome decayed in strength, The Church rose in power and influence.

So too will this occur in the United States, because history repeats. American-Anglo Puritans will centralize their power across the States, as the US government and Empire begins to decay.

This is as simple as I can make it for you, let me know if you understand now.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XoV5gV2gUU[/youtube]

Another site identifies other reasons: “The five foremost of these are the Rise of the Eastern Roman Empire, economic troubles, invasions by barbarian tribes, overreliance on slave labor, overexpansion and military spending, and Government corruption and political instability.”
https://acasestudy.com/the-top-5-reasons-rome-fell/

On another page of the same site, there is a piece on the rise of the church as a reason for the fall of Rome, although when I read it, I’m not so sure. I’ve read that in the 3rd and 4th centuries CE the Western Roman Empire began to be invaded by barbarian tribes, which were coming from Central Asia. In 476 CE the Germanic tribe leader Odoacer, “King of Italy”, deposed the last Western Roman Emperor, Romulus Augustulus, marking the end of Western Rome. It being “barbarian tribes” that took over, it is unclear as to how the church survived. It is probable that the Church, whose hierarchical organization was based on the organization of the Roman Empire, began to take over some of the governmental functions in the new nation that replaced the Western Roman Empire, and therefore prevented the fall into chaos and obscurity.

It seems to be something similar to what happened to Britain when the Romans retreated. Although for a long time it was assumed that the Britons fell into chaos, it seems they just carried on using the Roman structures left behind. So, far from causing the fall of Rome, it virtually caught the structure in its fall and restored it - albeit not as Rome.

That’s the agenda of the dominionists anyway. And they seem to be gaining strength. Look at Abbott the governor of Texas. Something like you describe is where the money of Koch and other conservative billionaire benefactors is going. They want to make America a Christian nation again. But, of course, it’s their brand of Christianity permeated with legalism, and if they succeed, backed by military and police power.

A reinvention of Christianity, reinvented and repackaged for the US… Christianity revamped.

Church still does have a future, but that might depend on where you are in the world, as some sects/rites are more active than others… like I’ve mentioned here in recent weeks and months, come religious-holiday time and you’ll be lucky if you can get a booking slot, to even be able to attend Mass.

Aha, now that you’ve given it a name, I remember a couple of years back they were mentioned here on ILP, having looked, it was 2013, so it was a bit longer than a couple of years. Do you really think they have so much power? They aren’t prominent in Europe, nor in the press here, but then again, Europe’s religious spectrum seems to be half as broad as in America.

A guy on Quora in 2018 thought that perhaps 26% of people would support a dominionist agenda. Otherwise articles I found were older, suggesting that the movement isn’t keen on prominence and would rather be underground. There are, of course, many underground groups, many conspiracies and they seem sometimes more dangerous than the threats from outside of the country. I think that is one of the disadvantages of social media, in that such groups can organise themselves.

Lol!!

Yet people happily make it through life, with booze and drugs…

Religion is about more than the Religion… perhaps, in America, religiosity is more about profit than people… mostly. Social gatherings, Community Hall parties to celebrate births deaths and marriages, cheese and wine soirées… good, memorable, times.

…doesn’t mean you can’t acquire a vice or two, or live a cray fast-paced life as you get older, and not when young naive and vulnerable… you know where to draw the line, and can differentiate between virtue and vulgar vice… doesn’t make a person a dull square neither, just non-disillusioned and untainted by many of life’s harsh sobering realities.

I see that in Germany as well. The parish I once belonged to was as much a social club as a church and many of the members of the parish, despite being church-goers and voting regularly for Elders, said that they didn’t want to talk about their faith. In fact, when I suggested that some things just didn’t need to be said, they didn’t grasp that chance to reinstate their position as a believer but declined to comment. It was as though it was something that they avoided addressing altogether.

They were mostly very nice people and obviously some had their vices, and some were obnoxious, but for the most part we got along. Interestingly, at Bible meetings that were held occasionally, it was very clear that many people didn’t know much about the Bible or about their confession. It was apparently more important to belong.

Yes, the “Bible Belt” in the United States, “red country” is very big and ignored by the liberal-left-marxist Coastal elitists who believe they’re better than everybody else.

Mormons, Evangelicals, Baptists are vast majority of the American people. A coalition of Christian peoples can very easily organize under Theocratic rule, when the time comes.

:laughing: If only they beleived in half of the same things!! :laughing:

More likley if they got more power they would drag up their old rivalries and demonstrate why the USA had to disestablish the church from government in the first place.

They is a reason why the coastal communities are elite - its because that is where all the intelligence, reason and innovation comes from.

If this forum proves anything, it’s that the self-proclaimed “elites” are retarded and morally corrupt, not more ‘intelligent’ than anybody. It is just a common, pompous lie.

When it comes down to marrying and having kids, everybody flocks to Christian country. It’s universal. Nobody trusts their kids with your so-called “elites”.

Even politics proved this the last couple weeks.

The Church is the Dominion for holy matrimony, the bond between Man and Woman, and protecting the Innocence of children.

No lefty/liberal/marxist/atheist group can contend with this. Everybody wants to raise their children in a Christian-dominated society, especially the far-left.