Gib, I don’t think that dream had anything to do with your illness – apart from the fact that your illness put you in the situation where you drifted off…
This is how I read your dream. Each of the puzzle books represent a separate problem or question you want to resolve. You’re doing what most westerners do with our programmed minds (what I call the Luciferian mind) and that’s to take things apart, to break them up, to separate and isolate the parts and analyse them. IMO, the robed and hooded man seems to be asking if you related the individual problems/questions to each other and looked at them as a whole.
The more unconscious we are, the more our focus narrows like a spot light onto individual elements and the more the elements around our target, get ignored (ignore-ance). The more conscious a person is, the more his/her focus broadens. The enlightened being has an omni-directional focus; rather than seeing separate problems (your books) he sees the pattern the problems make. A person who looks too closely at a printed image will only see dots while another person who has a broader focus (or greater resolution or perspective) will see the dots in context and therefore see the image they form.
PS: Re the cloaked man: When I was a kid, I had an incredible astral trip (hyper lucid dream) where I met a dude who sounds similar to the one you’re describing. At first, I could only see blackness under his heavy large hood then, when I managed to get a glimpse, I realized he didn’t have a face at all. Underneath the hood it was endless emptiness.
I asked him if he was my teacher to which he telepathically replied ‘If that’s what you wish me to be’. He had no name and said almost nothing. He was there to show me something, which he did. It was one of the most beautiful astral visions I ever had. He told me I would see this once more shortly before I died. That doesn’t scare me in the least. As a matter of fact it thrills me, but other people might not want to ask the ‘teacher’ too many questions. Just sayin…. (sorry, don’t want to digress but your description brought the image back.)
There are some who are aware of the basics though not fully enlightened but partially only. The world may not aware of those becuase they are too simple to realize what they are. There are many such people around but disconnected with the intellectual faternity, especially English speaking. They do not see it as a very big acheivement either. For them, it is just of one those things that can happen to anybody. They see it as the grace of the God and has no intention to showcase that. They are satisfied with where and what they are.
But, full enlightenment is a rare thing and does not happen very often but once in centuries.
Partially true. Let me explain.
I can say that i am aware of the basics not but not much of details. But, still it goes beyond mere theory.
Theoretically, that is possible and has been happened in the past too in some rare cases like Saint Kabir, as he was born enlightened. But, the more established practice is that after maturing, there comes a point in the life of every enlighten person, when he takes the final leap. That happened almost to all, right from Hindu religious figures like Buddha and Mahavira to the Prophets of Abrahamic religions.
But, nothing can happen without the consent of guiding authorities.
Secondly, there is one more very important issue involved here, which even religious scholars/followers do not understand and is also the main cause of the tussle between different religious ideologies.
There are two stages of the enlightenment; one is at the level of the soul and the other is at the level of the consciousness.
Means, When becomes aware and can interact directly with the authorities, he is considered as enlightened as happened in the cases of all Abrahamic prophets. It is enlightenment at the level of the soul and gives access to heaven. But, there ia one more higher level of enlightenment also which happens at the level of consciousness, where even heavens are not the ultimate destination.
Heaven or other higher spiritual realms are not the permanent stages. These are forced by Karmas and come and go with the time, and the soul will have to take birth accordingly, thus not considered as complete enlightenment. There are just the forms of life like humans but not everlasting.
When human skips human body, it becomes soul. A stage has been crossed but the soul has its own body and mind too and it enters to higher spiritual realms. But, there are many stages of those too, not one. As the soul moves higher, first it begins to shed its body and only consciousness and mind remains. Then, in the process of moving upwards, there comes a stage when the entity becomes completely free of material.
This is a very high stage and almost eternal because there is no material/body but only mind and consciousness. But, as the mind remains, thus it plays it tricks by manifesting desire and forces consciousness to fall down to lower realms and consciousness has to again enter the body and take a round of the complete circle again.
This phenomenon is precisely what is called by Samsara in Buddhism and Maya in Vedanta. Ultimate enlightenment is moving out of this circle forever thus the consciousness would not has to take birth again ever; that is Nirvana. In Nirvana, consciousness becomes omniscient as it becomes aware and capable to control the mine/desire and thus attains eternity.
Traditional Abrahamic religions, especially Christianity, do not talk about this much. Their whole focus is on the liberation of the soul, not consciousness. There are some hints of Samsara in Judaism but like many sects of Hinduism, Sufism focus solely on this only. In Sufism, it is almost considered a sin to have a desire for heaven, its aim is higher.
One more thing. One can liberate soul and moves to heaven and other spiritual realms on its own. It is not a much difficult thing. Secondly, that is going to happen anyway because after training and resting, and settling the scores of human incarnations, the soul would return to its native realm by default. So, it is not a very big deal.
But, the ultimate enlightenment is very difficult to achieve. Mind/desire does not let the consciousness goes through and pulls it back again and again to the cycle of Samsara. Unless and until, one does not get the help of such person, who has been already crossed that barrier; it would never able to cross on its own. That is why entities from that stage comes below to this human realm to show the way to the people.
Lastly, there a unique feature or rule of Samsara, that it is one way traffic down up to the human realm. Means, an entity of the any higher spiritual realm, cannot ever cross to other higher realms placed above to it. It can only move down but as this human realm is placed at the bottom, thus circle completes here and the entity can take the leap to any stage, according to its efforts. Ultimate enlightenment is open only to the humans, not to the higher spiritual entities.
That is the beauty and importance of this human realm as it is the only school or advance studies in the samsara. That is why it is said in the Hinduism that the gods envy humans.
Your description of the hooded man resonates perfectly with my own impression. I sometimes (not very often) get a very vivid impression that I know exactly what the elements in my dreams mean, and the hooded man was one of them. I almost know he represented my unconscious, and your description fits that perfectly. I also like your take on what the books represents; it’s very fitting.
Sanjay,
I find your explanation very interesting. I’d like to get into it later but I don’t have time right now. Will reply again.
So you mean even those born enlightened must still grow and move forward on the path of enlightenment… but there is a final step, you’re saying.
The gods? Is this why the gods cannot escape Samsara? Because they need to stay in existence in order to guide others into Nirvana?
When you say that the human skips the human body, are we talking about the afterlife, or are you saying that the soul can become free of the body within this life time though it may still experience itself as residing within a human body–as though the soul could live independently of the body but remains connected to it insofar as the body is still living.
This sounds like you’re talking about the afterlife.
What do you think this says about the Abrahamic religions? Should we consider them wayward or are they simply focusing on a different aspect of the whole thing? It’s interesting that you are able to integrate all world religions into the same cosmology. This is very atypical of the Abrahamic religions themselves. They are notorious for going to war with each other over the simplest little discrepancies–whether the Pope is infallible or not, for example–so much so that any little scriptural disagreement forces them to segregate the conflicting views into whole different religions (Protestantism and Catholicism, for example). Do you think this tendency stems from something inherent to the religions themselves? To the people and the culture? To historical and geographical circumstance? Something else?
These two point–that some return to the human realm to help guide people, and that only from the human realm can one attain full enlightenment–are what made me think that the gods’ roll is to guide humans into higher realms and/or into full enlightenment. If they could escape Samsara themselves, they would surely do so, and thus no one would remain to help humans do the same. Do you think this is right?
I have a few more questions about these last few points. You say that no entity from the higher spiritual realms can climb higher but can only go lower. Do you mean an entity born into a higher realm? Because if it’s possible at all for human beings to climb to higher realms, then surely they can keep on climbing as high as their efforts will allow, which means that just entering into higher realms shouldn’t be an obstacle to climbing even higher. Also, is the manner by which the soul sheds the human body (as you described above) a case of climbing to a higher spiritual realm? Lastly, you said that ultimate enlightenment is only open to human beings. Is this because ultimate enlightenment is considered to be the highest realm?
No. Once enlightened is enlightened forever, whether child or mature, as happened in th case of Saint Kabir and Lord Krishna. There would no final leap in such cases during this lifetime. They come here already enlightened and know about that too even their childhood. There is no need for such persons to grow here. But, that does not happen usually.
The more established practice is that entities, who are just there at the verge of enlightenment, come here to take the final leap, because that is not allowed/possible in their realms. And, as that happens here, so others can also learn from their experience as happened in the cases of Buddha and Mahavira. Both of those struggled very much before attaining enlightenment. Before being enlightened, Mahavira wandered like a mentally disturbed person and people used to throw stones to him considering him as a mad person.
No, that is not the actual reason. Actually, like humans, they are also trapped in the labyrinth. They usually guide humans up to their realm only, not beyond that. But, this does not mean that they are not aware of the stages beyond them. Of course, they can guide/tell the way to go beyond them. But, there is no need for that.
As an entity/soul reaches at spiritual realm, or becomes capable of having direct interaction with them within the period of humanhood, he becomes aware of all this by default.
as i said in the last post, the gods cannot escape Samsara because it is one way down traffic only. The escape/enlightenment is allowed only for humans. So, if any god wants to get out of the system permanently, he has to incarnate as a human here, and in the process, he becomes human.
The term god is hugely misunderstood. Actually, either there is no god or all are gods, including humans and animals too. The core ingredient of any living entity, the consciousness, use to be the same right from the first enlightened stage to a tiny insect living in the mud.
All life forms are different incarnations of the same consciousness. The difference is only in the wraps around it. The higher any entity would be placed, the less wraps it would have. And, when all wraps are removed, it becomes enlightened.
So, god is refined or less complex version of the humans, or humans are more complex and intruded version of the gods.
Yes, because that happens usually after the death only, barring some exceptions, either accidently or forced.
As i said above, that happens only in exceptional cases. Some people may experience this accediently during extraordinary circumstances in near death experiences, when they come closer to dying. But, that happens only for some time and without any control on the experience.
The only second way to get this experience is by force, and that is what we call meditation. In a way, meditation is forced, controlled, conscious and reversiable dying.
After crossing a certain stage, it becomes possible for a mediator to force his soul to leave the body and re-enter it according to his will, and that also with the full awareness of the human/conscious mind. That is how he becomes aware what is he besides and beyond the human body. This is what new age spiritualist call Astral projection. During this, the soul can live independently, though connected with the body.
This sounds like a very big thing but it is not. Actually the same happens to all living entities during the sleep. Most of dreaming is also a form of Astral projection too. Soul manytimes leaves the body in the sleep, go to the spiritual realms and comes back to the body too. I am sure you have experienced at the ending of some of your dreams that you were somewhere else and just came back here, just precisely before being awake.
But, the difference is between a meditation and normal person is that the conscious/human mind of the mediator remains alive during the process of the dreams, but not the others.
No. I am describing a very high spiritual realm, just below the highest (enlightenment).
No, they are not wayward at all. The issue is that were targeting a difference audience than their Eastern counterparts. That is the only reason why their focus was different and looks incomplete.
First of all, Abrahamic religions should not be seen separately but subsets of a broader framework. They are incomplete without one another. That is precisely what happens with Christianity and it looks incomplete.
Moses talked about metaphysics in Judaism. He brought the complicated issues of Yetzer hara to the table but that turned out to a blunder because the targeted audience was not ready for such complications and that lead to a chaotic society. Jesus wanted to free the people from this unwarranted intellectuality. That is why he confined himself to very simple issues like faith, devotion and morality. Traditional Islam continued the moral work of Jesus and established rules for every vertical of life, while Sufism refined the metaphysics of Judaism and put it in the right perspective.
Putting all this together, Abrahamics becomes at par with Hinduism (Vedanta, Buddhism and other subsets).
Anyone, who is unbiased and honest, aware of the basics of the religions and would try to go in the details, would conclude the same for sure. Intellectuals are unable to do that because they lack anyone of these three required eligibilities. The most common reason is they are unaware of the basics.
The lust of power besides the three reasons that i mentioned above.
It is both, more or less.
All deity based religions focus on liberation of the soul with the hint of the other ultimate libration of the consciousness, as Moses and Muhammad did in Judaism and Islam. The same is in the case of Shivism and Vaishnavism in Hinduism. On the other hand, sects like Sufism, Vedanta and Buddhism focus mainly on the liberation of the consciousness.
As i said above, they cannot escape samsara being there, no matter what they know. They have tocome down here. Perhaps, getting the guidance to the human realm may be the reasoning behind that practice.
Yes. that is applicable to all, without any exception.
Though, it is possible for the humans to attain any higher realm according to their efforts but that one entity is allowed to that once only for his one human life, not forever. Means, if a human becomes eligible for the 3rd realm, then he will remain there forever and cannot climb to 2nd from there. To enter in the 2nd, it has to come down again at the human realm to earn the respective eligibility.
I did not get clearly what are you asking.
The first thing that needs to be understood clearly that Human realm is the least permanent realm as far as the stay of the souls are concerned. No soul belongs to here permanently. It is not a residing colony but merely a school situated disconnected from the main inhabitance. Usually they spend some time here and return to their native realm.
That is going to happen anyway, whether one have faith in any religion or not. Having or not having faith merely can either make this process easy/speed up or difficult/delay to some extent but cannot change the ultimate result. Secondly, time from human perspective is not a big worry for spiritual entities. As they life span is very big, starts from some two digit thousands years and tends to increase with every higher spiritual realm, thus they can afford to wait and send any particular soul many times to get its course complete by all means.
So, ending up in a higher spiritual realm is the default outcome for every living entity in this realm. Because, we all come from there. The more important issue is whether we can make any progress in that or not.
One more thing. Though, it is the last realm and the soul cannot go below this realm but if it becomes completely out of control and does not respond to obligations of this world and acts too badly again and again, even after giving reminders, it may be send for the punishment (hell ) for some time. And also, it may have to incarnate as animals/insects in this very realm as a punishment.
I am not sure of this. It seems to me that this realm was made later by the higher spiritual entities. As those realms are very calm and slow, thus they may not be fit for learning the advanced skills. Secondly, this the only realm that is not only governed but can be manipulated too even at the micro level, thus, it becomes easier here to create desired circumstances, than their native realms. They do not send all their students here, but only selected ones.
Thirdly, they can put extra pressure here on the learners to shorten up the learning process. This the most difficult realm to live it. That is necessary otherwise souls would not able to learn because we learn the most in the difficult circumstances. So, the more difficult it would be, the more it would serve the purpose.
That is perhaps the reason why we are in such a situation. And, that is perhaps the explanation why the God does not respond to the suffering to the people of this world ( as atheists claim)!
“Theoretically, that is possible and has been happened in the past too in some rare cases like Saint Kabir, as he was born enlightened. But, the more established practice is that after maturing, there comes a point in the life of every enlighten person, when he takes the final leap.”
It sounds like you’re saying the final step comes for those who become enlightened through maturing in this life, but for those born enlightened, there is no final step.
Well, there’s two senses in which we’ve been talking about “realms”. First, there are the realms that we can cross over into after dying and being reborn. We can die human and be reborn in a higher realm as a god (right?), or we can die a god and be reborn in a lower realm as a human. Is this correct?
Then there seems to be realms we can rise to as a matter of meditation or striving for enlightenment. This seems to be a process that one can go through within his own life time, while still being human.
Are these the same realms we’re talking about? If so, what does it mean for a human being to rise to a higher spiritual realm by means of striving for enlightenment? Let’s say you reach the level of the gods. Do you suddenly become vividly aware of the gods, perceiving them all around you (I believe you said you do)? Do you become something like a god yourself? Do you experience yourself being part of the Earthly realm at the same time as the higher realms?
And how does astral projection fit into this? The stories I’ve heard about astral projection have to do with the soul leaving the body and traveling somewhere else in the physical universe, but that can’t be the same as travelling to a higher spiritual realm, can it? Although, from what I understand, astral projection can go in the direction of the higher spiritual realms as well, not just somewhere else in this physical universe. But does one’s soul need to leave the body in order to travel to the higher spiritual realms?
And what do you think this lust for power stems from? It doesn’t seem like you think it comes from the religions themselves. Do you think it’s just a human tendency, and if so, do you think Easterners suffer from it just as much as Westerners and followers of the Abrahamic religions?
So it’s a matter of having the right eligibility to begin with? So a human born into this realm may acquire the eligibility to climb to the 3rd realm, but not the 2nd, and the 3rd realm will be as high as he can climb. But is it possible for this person to earn the eligibility to make it to the 2nd realm or higher during this same life time? I mean, what if he only had the eligibility to make it to the 3rd realm, and he did so, and then while at the 3rd realm, he earned the eligibility to make it to the 2nd realm. Is that possible? Or can you only earn these eligibilities from the lowest realm, and then once you start on your path, it is predetermined how far up you can go?
I was responding to what you said earlier:
“When human skips human body, it becomes soul. A stage has been crossed but the soul has its own body and mind too and it enters to higher spiritual realms.”
But I think I get the answer to this question now.
Is hell one of the realms? A realm below even this one? How long does one usually stay in hell?
It was made by the higher spiritual entities? We’re talking about Nirvana, right?
That is a wise thing that you did. As far as regarding having any conversation with me is concerned, that would always be helpful. Because, unlike most of other people, i have a particular ontology in my mind and very rarely deviate from that, unless i find a valid reason. You can even look at my posts at other threads too.
Yes. The reason behind that is, those who come from here from the last or ultimate realm stage (after being enlightened) use to born enlighten here. But, all those, who are at the verge of enlightenment and come from other than the highest realm, have to take final leap here. That is how it goes.
Both are possible.
Yes.
Of course.
It means that a soul is bound to return that realm by default, from which it came here. That is going to happen anyway whether that entity makes any effort in spirituality or not. All that soul has to do here is respond to his circumstances, learn and give test via those, and return back to its native realm.
But, as there are not one but many spiritual realm, and also as they are not at the same level but enjoy different status, so if a soul wants to elevate its spiritual status there, either by moving to higher realms or being enlightened, it has to make extra spiritual efforts during this human life.
As i said before, the term gods is very generalized and confusing term as it covers the whole spectrum of spiritual entities, who exist in this cosmos, besides humans.
It is a bit complicated. The interaction with the gods happens in two ways.
One is a direct one-to-one interaction as we have with each other but that happens very rarely, and only when gods decide to do that for some reasons. In that case, they appear in front of the humans in their actual form, which is by and large similar to humans, barring some minor differences.
The second and more usual way is to interact through soul. As i said that firstly, every soul belongs to any spiritual realm, secondly, our subconscious mind is the conscious mind of the soul, thirdly, every soul remains it touch with its native realm even residing in human wrap, thus, to interact with the gods or to know about them, the easiest and most common way is to make human conscious mind such strong, that it can tap and influence the mind of the soul. That is what the meditation is all about, nothing else.
Normally, our subconscious mind (soul’s mind) dominates the conscious mind (human’s mind). It is almost one way traffic from the subconscious to the conscious. It is the subconscious mind that decides the basic human nature, not the conscious one. Then, the soul’s mind learns through that experience, which our human’s mind have during this lifetime. And, when the soul’s mind gets what is expected from it, it goes back to its realm.
But, when we meditate, human mind starts becoming stronger. Concentration is the cornerstone of all types of meditations. Concentration means that one has to focus its mind on one particular issue by force. As repeated using any muscle of our body makes it stronger and grows more than others, as we experience is body-building, in the same way, meditation makes human mind stronger because is uses mind far more than normal.
If one continues with meditation is proper way, the times comes when human mind starts influencing and tapping the soul’s mind. Now, it becomes two way traffic, instead of one and human mind becomes aware of the knowledge that soul’s mind have. Means, human mind can witness its soul interacting with its nears and dears. That is indirect interaction with the gods.
But, the human mind cannot tap soul’s mind all the time. Human mind needs to be at a particular level of concentration, when it can make connection or tap soul’s mind. That level of the concentration has to be maintained throughout the time of interaction. A slight drop in the concentration will terminate the connection immediately. So, it is a quite difficult thing to do and cannot happen all the time, though it becomes easier with time and practice.
When i started it more than 20 years ago, it took me usually about one hour or sometimes even more to reach that stage, but now i can do that within 5-10 min. And, i can even do that now travelling in the bus or train. All i have to do is close my eyes and concentrate on anything, even about the figure of the latest miss world, and as soon as that threshold of concentration is breached, the connection establishes automatically, whether i intended for that or not. My human lost connection with this world and join its counterpart. But, human mind can only witness what is happening out there, not cause any change. It can only witness, not interfere.
That is how i realized that only thing that is required is concentration, nothing else. And also, that is how i became aware of the most of all that gradually, what i am telling you.
Then, over a period of time, i started recognizing those spiritual entities, with which my soul interact again and again. Slowly, i became aware of their relation with my soul, their faces, their voices, their behavior and what they do here and why etc. Then, i also started recognizing them even in the dreams, even if they fake their appearances there to some extent.
As far as your question about myself is concerned or how i feel it now, life/understanding/perception has been divided into two parts, here and there. Now, i can neither ignore this nor that. Sometimes that feel somewhat strange but, after struggling during first two years, i have learned to live with that, without confusing in my priorities, though it is a bit difficult thing to do.
Yes, i can feel their presence sometime, but not always. They also somehow convey the massage, both mentally and sometime physically too, that my attention is required. Sometimes, i pay attention to that but sometime ignore them too, if i am busy somewhere else, because i have seen that they do not care much about what i feel and face as a human. My human life does not mean more than a timepass or game to them. Their only interest is the soul that resides within. My human mind is a burden or hurdle for them because now it can influence the soul’s mind permanently, and they will have to face that later too, even after when this human mind will be dissipated with this human body. During initial period, there was some differences, but now he thinks exactly how i think. And, that is my real victory.
Astral projection is nothing but the phenomenon of the soul leaving the body temporarily. It can travel to this realm and to others too. Dreaming is also a form of astral projection, when sometimes the soul travels to other realms.
The soul needs to leave the body in order to travel to higher realms for sure. But, some part of the consciousness/soul remains certainly with the body even during all travels of the soul, otherwise this body would become dead permanently. I am not sure how exactly it happens but it certainly happens.
It is just human tendency and East/West does not make any difference in that.
Yes.
No, no. That is not what i am saying. I just gave an analogy by saying 3rd. A human can climb to any realm from here, including the last one (enlightenment).
Do not confuse with what is allowed here with what is allowed there. Here, every elevation is allowed but no elevation is allowed there. For any and every crossover to the higher realms, the soul has to come here every time. Yes, coming down is allowed in spiritual realms. They need not to come here for that.
That may or may not happen.
Generally, souls of a particular realm learn there but when any soul reaches at the verge of elevation in the terms of spiritual status, it has to come down here to take a leap. As far as the enlightenment is concerned, that does not happen in one human spiritual life. A soul has to take birth manytimes as a human and god too, to be enlightened. It is allowed does not mean that it happens easily.
Hell is certainly one of the realms, just like heaven. Most of the religions place hell below human realm. But, it does not seem right to me. I see both of hell and heaven parallel to this chain of other realms.
Unlike other spiritual realms, and like this human realm, both of heaven and hell have no permanent inhabitance other than the governing authorities. Entities do not take birth or die there. They just come and go after spending some time there, either as a reward or punishment, according to their deeds of this human realm.
Means, if an entity of any spiritual realm comes here and clear the training and test, it is bound to go its native realm. But, if it has performed extraordinarily well here, far more than expected, he will be awarded some time to stay in the heaven, before returning to its realm. The same applies to those who performed very badly as they will get the punishment of spending some time in the hell. But, these are not the permanent places for the entities. Christianity got it wrong. It looks to me that Jesus was trying to frighten people by saying that the hell is permanent in order to keep them away from committing sins, or he was misquoted or misunderstood. I am not ready to accept that he was unaware of the reality.
It may be as short as some moments. I cannot say about the higher limit as our sense of time is quite different from them.
Not particularly Nirvana but all the higher spiritual entities as a whole.
This chain of realms came into existence from top to down, not the other way around. This realm was established as school later but spiritual entities, when they see a need of such realm. While all the other levels of spiritual entities came into existence naturally, humans were created. Humans are not natural but artificial and manipulated for a particular purpose.
Every religion says so. Even if you look at Abrahamic religions, the God clearly says that he made Adam from the clay and blew the life into him. But, he does not say the same about the angels. He does not say that h blew life into the angles. He stops at saying that i created angles. Blowing the life into the Adam made of clay indicates towards an extra wrap that only Adam have but angles do not. The God would have easily said that i made Adam from the clay but he chose his words carefully.
And please keep in mind, Sanjay, I don’t always catch everything I read–some things are misunderstood, some things are forgotten, some thing are mixed up with things already said, etc.–so if you find that you have to repeat yourself, I apologize, but I will get it eventually.
And based on what you said, these can only be humans who became fully enlightened here in this realm.
Ok, from here on in, I’m going to say “higher entities” rather than “gods”.
What you say here rings very true for me, especially while on certain drugs–sometimes I feel like I can talk to higher entities directly and they communicate back by thought–but drugs are a whole other can of worms and I’m not sure what your attitude is towards them. I’ve always thought of them as cheating (well, not always, but certainly at this point in my life, I know I’m cheating) and it is not a natural ability that I possess nor cultivated by my own efforts.
You’re touching on something here that I wanted to ask about. When we talk about a person’s journey to higher realms through meditation or similar exercises, we’re talking about something that happens during a “session”, correct? That is, something that happens in the course of a few hours (sometimes only minutes from what I’ve heard) and then once its over, it’s over. Contrast this with the idea of making a spiritual journey through the course of one’s life. ← This is the way I’ve been thinking about it and I think I may be mistaken. I’ve been interpreting you as saying that one climbs to higher spiritual realms in the same way one might climb to higher levels of knowlegde or expertise by going to school or through training. Once that knowledge and expertise is acquired (and it’s acquired through a very slow and lengthy process, not just a few hours), it’s there to stay. One doesn’t “fall back” to a lower state of knowledge or expertise only to have to go through the whole schooling process again. One doesn’t “snap out of” one’s acquired knowledge and expertise. One carries them with him until the end of one’s days. But now I’m thinking that this is not what you mean when you talk about a person rising to higher realms, is it?
So it’s not just all a vertical hierarchy–above or below–but there can be different realms that are distinguished from each other by some other quality?
Is it possible for a soul to cease to exist entirely? This is what the Jehovah’s Witnesses say. They say that hell is just a place the soul goes to in order to be burnt into oblivion. The burning process is simply a destruction of the soul–which may feel like torture–but it is very temporary, and once the soul is gone, it is that which is said to be eternal. But I’m guessing that in your ontology, the soul doesn’t die.
So it’s the Earthly realm which was created by the higher entities. That fits in with most religious mythologies. It also means creating realms is something that the higher entities can do. Could there be other realms besides this one which the higher entities created?
That happens with everyone, including me, more or less. So, that is not the issue.
No problem. It takes time to absorb new concepts. Secondly, I do not mind taking some pain for those who are honest and sincere, which i think that you are. It does not matter much to me whether they agree with me or not.
Yes, but it not the matter of yesterday or some years ago. That would have been happened zillions of years before, even before this earth or human realm existed.
This human realm has the least life or permance. Realize that i am talking about the existence of this entire human realm, not only the mankind alone. This was created and destroyed enumberable times before. Thus, we do not know which exact, or how back was that human realm existed, from which those humans became enlightened.
This may be a bit confusing. You can ask further questions on this, if you want.
That does not matter. I would like to clarify it more to make it easier to understand.
All humans live here. Means, we all are humans, irrespective of our social status. Obama is just like an ordinary African but every African is not Obama. The same applied in the case of spiritual entities. They also have entities having different status in their native realm. Like us, they also have folks and higher authorities like elites, governing authorities and even the kings. So, when religions talk about the God or the gods, they are basically talking about those higher governing authorities from those realm, not common spiritual entities.
That is not exactly what happens. This is again one of the common misperception among many intellectuals. One other member also raised the same issue in the other thread some days back.
Let us analyze the basics of meditation and drugs before drawing any conclusion.
As i said in the last post, the purpose of the mediation is to strengthen the conscious mind, so it can overule the subconscious mind. On the other hand, the purpose of the drugs is to hamper the mind. So, we are basically talking about two just opposite methodologies.
Secondly, drugs slows down the functioning of conscious mind. Means, conscious mind produces fewer thoughts than normal under the influence of the drugs. That lessens the noise in the mind because of fewer crowds. That opens the possibility of hearing such voices that cannot be heard normally. That sometimes enables us to hear the subtle voices of our unconscious mind.
But, a very important thing to understand here is that in the case of drugs, conscious mind can only sometimes hear some wayward thoughts of the subconscious, nothing more than that. Secondly, because of the slowed functioning or the conscious mind, either it would forget those or not able to draw any purposeful meaning from that. So, it does not help much in either case, besides the side effects that drugs causes.
If drugs would have been so helpful, Buddhism and Vedanta would have recommended those for the meditation as opium is known and used widely in the Indian subcontinent for ages. The plant of Poppy was known since the time of Vedas. It is mentioned as Soma Plant in Rig Veda. They were well aware of its properties regarding influencing the mind and were also using them for medical purposes.
Yes, that is what happens usually in the most of the cases.
There is nothing wrong in your interpretation if you exclude expertise from it and restrict to the knowledge only. Having knowledge of anything is one thing and being an expert of that thing is an entirely different issue. Do not mix the two.
Acquired knowledge is to stay forever. Once known is known forever. But, you are using Knowledge here from different perspective. It seems to me that the issue needs further clarification.
Let me start from the basics here otherwise it would be difficult for you to comprehend.
I am sure that you have been heard of Chakras. Each chakra represents a particular spiritual plane. Actually, this human body represents the whole of cosmos. Hinduism says that there is nothing outside this human body, everything is within. Means, there is no need to search outside for anything, look within and you will find everything.
Those chakras are situated in this body exactly in the same way as those spiritual planes are situated in the cosmos. It starts from the lowest realm, which is located at the bottom of spinal cord and the 10th plane is at the highest point of the head. Though, some plane go beyond the head too but let us not complicate it for the moment.
As i said before, the cornerstone of the meditation is concentration, and as one starts to meditate, consciousness starts moving upwards towards the head, because the process of concentration is going on the mind. In the process, it crosses through the Chakras located at the different points of the body and ultimately reaches the head, where the Sahastrasar plance (sum of a thousand) is located. We commonly know this as the Crown Chakra.
When consciousness, embedded in the soul, reaches or crosses a particular chakra, the soul becomes at par in the status of spiritual entities, who live there. Now, it starts interacting with the spiritual entities there and the human conscious mind can aware of those interactions too. But, all that happens at the level of mind too, nothing physical.
The consciousness can continue the journey and can reach at the 10th plane. This is the most difficult plane to cross so far. To cross this, the whole of the consciousness, which usually remains scattered throughout the body, has to withdraw itself from the rest of the body and concentrated at the point of the gate of 10th place. If the consciousness becomes able to open that door, it can leave the body and roam in the spiritual realms. That is what the Astral projection is.
This also happens sometimes in the sleep too but here it happens knowingly and according to the will of mediator. Conscious mind can travel with the consciousness/soul as a governing authority, not merely a witness, what was happening earlier in the dreams. It other words, human mind takes control of the body of the soul. Now, during this stage, the mind of the soul has to take the back seat and becomes a mere witness. Reaching this stage, human mind can interact with spiritual entities in the same way as we do with each other here. But, it is long shot. A very few can reach upto there, though the journey does not even ends there. The most difficult barrier, which is the last one, is yet to come.
But, the human body is still lying down there in semi-conscious state. Nothing is still happening to it.
There is one more phenomenon, which takes a slight different route.
The whole issue regarding meditation is bringing human mind closer to soul’s mind, till the tenth plane. Generally, like other spiritual entities, the soul does not care much about what is happening with its human part. Human part is just a tool for the soul so it does not care much about its suffering. But, that situation changes slowly with mediation and soul’s mind also start thinking likewise its human counterpart.
When it becomes the practice, the spiritual entities start listening to the calls to the human mind too. They have to do that because the soul is one of them so they cannot ignore its calls. That explains why people say that they pray to the God but he does not listen. To make him listen, one’s soul would also have to pray for the same thing. In other words, the prayer of the mind should be so deep and intense, that the soul would have no option but to join, and that would be heard for sure. When that happens, spiritual entities interact humans sometimes at their level and physically too.
Here is one of such incident from my unfinished book-
And, the second one-
So, direct interactions can happen with the human too. Those two incidents also explain what miracles are. Actually, there is no miracle. They interact, treat/cure the soul in the same way in which we cure the body, and in the process, the body is cured by default, because the body is the extension of the soul.
If any human is spiritually active and have very earnest desire, he can have these interactions as a human too. But again, that also happen rarely. This was a routine process for all Abrahamic prophets. Angles visited them regularly.
Yes. It is in both ways, horizontally and vertically too. There are many realms, which are located at the same plane. Like that one i mentioned above, Sahastrasar. Sahastra means thousand and sar means sum of essence. So, one thousand spiritual realms are located at this 10th plane.
Even being situated at the same plane, they can be different in various qualities. Some are realms are cold while some are hot. They also slightly differ in the appearance of the native spiritual entities. Means, like humans, they also have different physique and color too. Like us, they also have different languages, cultures and philosophies too. Means, there are Hindu and Islamic realms too. Actually, we humans did not invent most of our mainstream religions. They are exported from there to us.
One more thing i want to clarify here about falling back. There are two different aspects’; knowledge of any spiritual realm and actually having that status. Secondly, this falling back can happen but only in the term of the status, not the knowledge. But yes, it can happen. That is why a worthy teacher is necessary, especially in the initial stages and the last one.
Go through this link. There is a picture but i cannot post it here. There is some technical problem that i cannot handle. Read the details too.
The soul can die but not in the hell. Dying of the soul has entirely different meaning. The soul has to die to some extent to be enlightened. Though, one may call it transformation or purification of the soul also. It is same thing what happens when we die. At the death of humans, this body dies but the soul remains. In the same way, at the death of the soul, its body dies but its mind and consciousness remains. Both of these cannot die ever. They are eternal.
Secondly, there are some realms also which die and some which are not. There are basically three types of planes. The planes and realms situated in the highest category are eternal. They are not open to annihilation. Then comes the second category, which is situated between the highest and the lowest ( up to the Crown plane). These also face annihilation though that happens after very long intervals. The lowest category, up to the Crown realm, faces annihilation more times than the second one. And, within this category, human realm faces annihilation the most.
Again, the term created does not convery the message correctly. They did not create the planet Earth. It was alredy there. They found it fit for their purpose and merely created inhabitance here and slowly brought up to the level of them as humans, through guided evolution.
I am not sure whether something like humans exist somewhere else or not. Though, my assumption is that this earth is the only school they have. But, there may be some similar school in the process of making and may be going through the period of dinosaurs like entities right now. They cannot afford to be without school now. If this earth would have to be destroyed one day, or would become unfit for life as science predicts, i am sure that they would have made some alternate future arrangements.
I knew it! So the word “god” means something more like “king” rather than a different type of being from other spirits.
That sort of concurs with my experience. I know there are drugs that will not slow down the mind–think of caffeine–but there are others that will. You can think of drugs as having either of those two effects: they either slow down the mind or they speed it up. And even speeding up the mind might be a side effect of slowing down another part whose job it was to inhibit the part that’s sped up (and visa-versa). This is all known from the brain sciences.
But the kinds of drugs that people take to feel “spiritually uplifted”–the psychedelics–may in fact work by slowing down conscious thoughts. I’m not sure. I’ve always felt that at least with marijuana, there is a slowing down of rational thought–left brain thinking–but it seems to come along with an enhancing of creative thought–right brain thinking (this could be one of those cases where one brain center (the left brain) which is responsible for inhibiting another brain center (the right brain) slows down from the drugs, which causes that other brain center to speed up). I know that the experience is very much like an extremely intense day dream (at high enough doses, it kind of feels like dreaming awake). So I’d say the imagination is very much vitalized.
Most psychedelics do three things to the mind: enhance the experience of music, heighten emotion, and stimulate the imagination. ← I have a theory that these three things are a tightly integrated system in the brain and when they work together give rise to a feeling that most druggies call “spiritual uplifting”.
At the same time, however, I’ve also found that these heightened thoughts of the imagination are a lot harder to control–the higher the dose, the more difficult–so hard sometimes that unwanted and extremely frightening thoughts can get in there, thoughts that my conscious mind would otherwise block out–so it could be as you said: maybe the heightened thoughts aren’t directly being invigorated by the drugs but are coming through like a torrent because of the inhibiting effects the drugs have on my inner defense mechanisms. ← That would describe the experience quite nicely.
I feel that the drugs have helped me see deeper into my soul and I think this is why.
We have two sources here for spiritual doorways to open in the mind (which may turn out to be one): the imagination and the unconscious (I just realized these correspond to two philosophical styles, respectively, which I call insight philosophy and depth philosophy). I’ve heard from spiritualists that the imagination is the gateway to the spirit world, and that if the spirits wish to communicate with us, it is usually done through the imagination. But I don’t see why the unconscious isn’t also a gateway. Voices heard emanating from the unconscious, as you put it (which I’m taking metaphorically, btw) could surely be other spirits communicating with you through the unconscious. And besides, from a subjective Jungian point of view, there may be no sharp division between the personal unconscious and the greater realm of consciousness of which we, as humans, are unconscious.
Do you think that what drugs do to the brain is the same thing that meditation does to the brain–except that meditation can take it much farther if one knows how to wield it?
So you must be saying, then, that the more one practices meditation and exercises the focusing of consciousness, the more one will be able to bring the mind into that state as a natural mode of living. It’s like a muscle, you said, right? The more you exercise it, the stronger it gets, and therefore the more easily one can simply remain in that state of mind at all times. Does there come a point when it no longer requires any effort at all? Like knowledge accumulated that just stays in the mind all on its own? Is this what it is to grow spiritually along the path of life and rise to higher spiritual realms? And if it is, does that mean that one can, in principle, develop his/her spirituality to the point that one simply lives in a higher spiritual realm (even though his/her body may still be present in this realm)?
I knew it!
For Western religions, Heaven and Hell are most definitely up and down. It’s almost like Western religion is just Eastern religion flipped 90 degrees.
I think I understand.
Wow, Sufi snakes and ladders!
I’ll come back to that an examine it sometimes. Maybe there’s a hidden riddle.
So what does that say about human consciousness? Would we have still had consciousness and minds if the spirits hadn’t discovered the Earth? Would any animal have consciousness?
Let me know when you are done writing your book.
I don’t quite understand your question, Mags. What am I going through with my illness? With this discussion I’m having with Sanjay? With the drugs?
It seems to me that she is bit suprised why are you going on and on with me, given that i am giving bizarre theories. Perhaps, that is why she is asking what has happened to you.
More like looking for confirmation–at least at this point in the discussion. At first, I was looking for… well you know what I was looking for: an interpretation of my dream. But then Sanjay came along and offered his interpretation, and I became interested. ← So all ready you can see how what Sanjay is telling me is connected to what my dream is telling me.
Then when he started getting into the ontology (as he calls it) of his interpretation it started to mesh quite nicely with some of my experiences and visions on psychedelics, which got me very interested. At this point, I’m just looking for confirmation on my understanding of what Sanjay’s telling me.
Besides all that, I’m just interested generally in other people’s thoughts and experiences–to me it’s like exploring another world–I think we each live in slightly different worlds from each other, and the more strange ones are more interesting to me.
I was thinking to point this out to you since last two posts, but kept this reserved for the end of the thread. But, i am gald to see that you realized it yourself.
Yes. And also, that is merely a portfolio, or a post, not a person, something exactly like we have presidents, prime ministers or kings. As now Obama is the present, but some day some other person would be in his shoes. The same applies to the gods. Their position is not permanent but open to change.
But, speeding up is also ot going to help in any way regarding those experiences, as speeding up the mind will increase the noise within, so that will make it more difficult for the mind to listen subtle voices of the subconscious. That can happen only in the less noise.
That must be the case, as i explained above.
That is true. And, this feeling of dreaming awake is exactly that happens during the meditation too, especially in the initial stages. Though, over the period of time, mind tends to become more and more awake/conscious.
Basically all three symptoms are the same phenomenon. Secondly, emotions are not heightening but only seems to be heighten, again just because of less noise, which would be there in the absence of the drugs. The same is true for the stimulation of the imagination.
Actually, here the issue of the duality of mind and consciousness comes into play. This phenomenon can be explained only and easily by this concept. And, that will also address to your question of consciousness of the other thread.
[b]Mind and consciousness are two different entities, not one. Mind is doing entity, which analyzes the information received by the body. On the other hand, consciousness does nothing but feels those mind produced thoughts. So, both of these have different jobs.
As mind slows down and produces less thoughts under the influence of the drugs, thus, consciousness would be able to feel those thoughts more vividly, because it would have less other thoughts to deal with[/b].
One can translate it into the analogy of an observer and the traffic. Say, thoughts are just like cars coming from one side, one after one, at the rate of 60 cars per min, and the consciousness is an observer standing at some point by the road. At the rate of 60 incoming cars per min, the observer would not be able to recognize the details of the cars, but if the rate of incoming cars will slow down to 30, he will have double time to focus on cars, and as the result, his observational quality will also be improved. That is precisely what happens with drugs.
Compare your theory with what i said above.
The same theory of less noise and the duality of mind/consciousness is being played here too. These unwarranted thoughts always remain there in the mind, even without drugs, but we are unable to recognize those.
To explain what i am saying, let me put a thought experiment forth.
Choose any normal person, including yourself, and ask him/her to stay in the room for 3-4 hours, completely alone, no tv, no internet, no phone, means nothing else to focus on except himself. Now, give him a paper and pen, or a complete blank laptop to type. Now, ask that person to write all those thoughts honestly, which comes to his mind during that time.
Now, show any third person what that fellow has written. Any third person would immediately say that this person requires a psychiatric treatment right now. And, this result will be the same, no matter how intelligent, wise or sane person would be tried. You can try it on yourself, if you have any doubt, but do it honestly.
Actually, our mind use to produce all types of thoughts all the time, from highly rational to total bizarre ones. But, we neither pay attention nor act upon the all of those. Secondly, we came to know about any thought only when consciousness feels it, otherwise it comes and go unattended, lost in the crowd. And, as i said before, consciousness can feel only one thought at a time, which is the strongest at any given time. It cannot entertain all. So, we never know what and how much we have been missed.
But, under the slowness of the mind, consciousness becomes able to take notice of those thoughts also, which would be missed in normal conditions. That is why one feels bizarre thoughts under the drugs. Let me tell you here that a meditator feels the same during the meditation too. Those wayward thoughts disturb his concentration again and again. He sometimes forgets about the meditation and tends to flow with those.
Again from my notes-
You can see that i witnessed the same bizarre thoughts during the mediation too. So, the real cause is not the drugs, but that very process and entities, which are there for thinking and feeling.
Though, technically you can say that but that does not mean much in real terms, and cannot serve any meaningful purpose either.
That is true. I would like to name then as Intellectual philosophy and Religious philosophy. See, i have not read any conventional philosophy book in my life. But, i do not think that i know less than any intellectual philosopher about the mind, even including the most prominent ones or the modern times of the subject. One may easily say that i am taking too big but i know what i am saying and why so.
The fact of the matter is that you cannot know about the mind in real terms unless you do not go in the depth of it in person. Otherwise, it would be mere guess work based of what others have been said or what you think. So far, no intellectual philosopher in the history of philosophy got is right so far and no one will be able to do that either. They are not using the means, which are essential to know the truth.
No, they do not interact through imagination at all. They never talk to the human mind directly, except some rare cases. They only talk to the soul/subconscious mind. Yes, sometimes one may get the hint of subconscious, even without any effort. But, that is not imagination by any means.
There is no need to take it as a metaphor. It actually happens.
To be honest, i do not know much what he says. But, there is no such thing which we can call greater realm of consciousness, unless we define spiritual realms as such. But, he is right in saying that there is no sharp division between the two.
He has got the direction right but he cannot go much further. There is no way in which he can ever realize what exactly happening in there. And, that is precisely the problem with pure intellectual philosophers all along. The same happened with the Kant too.
Drugs do not do the same what mediation does to the brain. Yet, the results will be the same in the initial stages.
The only thing that both does the same is reducing the noise. Drugs do that slowing down the mind while mediation does that by restricting putting a check on the mind, without slowing it down.
Let us go back to that traffic analogy, which i mentioned. To enable the observer to focus on cars more clearly, there are two ways of doing that. One way is to slow down the speed of the traffic and other way is to lessen the traffic itself. In slowing down the traffic, the vehicles will move with less speed than before and that will lessen the numbers of cars crossing the observer in any given time interval, and he will have more time to focus on the cars. The other way is not to lessen the speed of the vehicles but to lessen the numbers of the vehicles. That also will result in lessening the numbers of vehicles crossing the observer with in any given time interval.
Meditaion lessens the numbers of the vehicles while drugs lessens the speed of the vehicles. So, even using two different methodogies, we are still getting somewhat the same result.
Yes, practice makes perfect. But, it is very difficult to remain in that state of the mind at all times. One can be closer to that but i do not think that is possible completely. To be in that state of the mind, one have shift focus from what is happening with the body to what is happening inside the mind.
Secondly, one has to close his eyes for that. That is essential for shifting the focus and maintaining it for longer periods.
As i said before, knowledge of past experience (memories) is different from being actually in that state. Falling down from some spiritual stages can also happen, though one can be still aware of all that. But, he has to climb again.
Actually, the soul of humans already lives partly here and partly there. It s connection from its native realm is never completely lost. The only difference is that some know and try to elevate it and some neither know nor do anything. In any case, the body is to remain here till the death, no matter how far one reaches spiritually. He is not going anywhere with this body.
I am not sure about Judaism, ut Islam does not support Christian views of heaven and hell. Islam does not accept in the premise of Original Sin either.
Perhaps, it would be entirely new things of the westerners. Even, most of the Muslims are unaware of this. That is the Sufi version of the Buddhist Samsara.
Yes. And, why not? After all, human is not a natural life form.
[b]There are three different types of matters exist in this cosmos. Consciousness, mind and Physical matter.
Consciousness is eternal and unchangeable too. Mind is almost eternal. There are many further subsets of physical matter.
When consciousness comes down a step, it melds with the mind, and a new life form is formed with this amalgamation. This entity does not have a body but it can think and feel, but it is not a soul yet. We may call it 2nd stage for our convenience. An entity here is consisted of only consciousness and mind.
When such entity comes down one more step, the matter (type a) melds with it. Now, here it gets a physical body and takes the form of a soul. We can call it 3rd step. An entity here is consisted of consciousness, mind and matter (type a).
The same happens in the 4th step. Here, the soul will have one more wrap of matter, though this matter would be different and heavier from the 3rd step. This 4th stage is the most talked about in the religions. In the context of the Chakras, this stage corresponds to the Crown Chakra. an entity here is consisted of consciousness, mind and matter ( type a + b).
Ther are further many different subsets within these four main categories. Human realm is the last subset of this 4th category. But, here we have one more and heaviest type of the matter (type c). So, here the entities are consisted of consciousness, mind and matter (type a + b + c).
So, when humans die, it is only type c of the matter, that lessens from the total existence of an entity. Everything else (the soul) remains intact and alive.[/b]
I will. All it needs now is perhaps 2-3 months time. I am almost done with the content but it still needs to put in the order and also some editing. As my English is not that good, thus i also want it go through the eyes of any such person who can check grammar mistakes. It is only once in a while i add or edit something. And, the status is the same for last two years.
I could have done that but things are not ripe for that. As i can sense what it going on at the level of the soul, thus i know that the governing authorities are not okey with that, till now. I have caused enough trouble for them and do not want to add to the tally now, thus patiently waiting for green signal. I know when that time would come, i would not have to make much efforts for my book. They will arrange the necessary circumstances for me.
What does this say about the God–with a capitol ‘G’–the one the Abrahamic religions introduced. Is this just another god, equal to the rest? Could each successive religion–from ancient Judaism, to Christianity, to Islam–be considered as ushered in by a new god that replaced the old one–a coup d’etat? Same position–like the President ruling over the same people–but occasionally swapped out for different players.
I know. That’s why I brought up psychedelics–I think those are the kinds of drugs you’re talking about.
This could be true. It’s hard to say with these kinds of experiences. I know I certainly wouldn’t be describing my drug-induced experiences the way you are, but that doesn’t mean your description isn’t fitting–it actually fits quite well.
What I’m calling heightened emotion and heightened imagination could be the result of focusing on my thoughts in more depth and staying with them for slightly longer than I usually would when sober. But I certainly think my emotions and imagination are heightened–there’s no question about that from where I sit–and you might say those emotions and imaginary ideations were there all along, cluttered and obscured by the heavy traffic of my thoughts, but I don’t think it’s just the slowing down of thought that brings my emotions and my imagination to the fore. I think it also has to do with what I find when I dig too deeply into my thoughts–especially when I’ve lost the ability to dismiss thoughts I would otherwise disbelieve (<-- that’s a whole other factor there)–the things I find can frighten me and they can send my imagination spinning. So there’s definitely some amplifying of emotion and imagination as a result of my thoughts slowing.
Have you read Daniel Dennett’s “Multiple Drafts” theory of consciousness?
Right, and would this mean that one can exercise one’s consciousness under either condition–the drugs or meditation–by strengthening one’s concentration?
Aw, damn!
Suit yourself–the way I define these is: philosophy on metaphysics, the cosmos, the afterlife, science, politics–these are all insight philosophies–depth philosophy is more about the human soul. One is outward looking, the other inward. One escapes into rational thought, the other digs deep into emotion. One is Apollonian, the other Dionysian.
I agree completely, Sanjay. No one is more an expert on the mind that the mind owner himself.
I don’t know, Sanjay. This is what some self-proclaimed psychic told me. She had a Reiki practice and I went to a few sessions. The way she explained it was that the imagination is known to be notorious for spontaneity–thoughts and images come in through that channel seemingly out of nowhere–if it is not the spirits communicating with us directly, then at least it could be them dropping subtle messages (thoughts, images, insights) into our minds which, to us, would seem “out of nowhere”. She said this is how psychics work–they don’t actually know the future, or see what’s behind the door, or truly read your mind–but guess instead. Psychics are those who have simply formed a working relationship with some spiritual agency who puts ideas into his/her head as means of help them in their psychic work. If they’re aware of this relationship, they are prone to actually tell you that the can know the future, see what’s behind the door, read your thoughts, etc.
Well, it should be taken as a metaphor for me–I’ve never literally heard voices emanating from my unconscious.
I like to think of Carl Jung as a subjectivist version of Sigmund Freud. Freud was definitely an objectivist–always overselling the scientific integrity of his work–and his model of the mind–with the ego, the unconscious, the id, etc.–shows this. Most post-secondary education text books on the subject depict it as an egg. The conscious mind covers only a small portion of the egg at the top, like the tip of an iceberg, while the unconscious takes up the rest. From this perspective, the unconscious is a closed off system–it’s inside the eggs, bound off by the inner surface of the shell.
But from a subjectivist perspective–which was Jung’s–you don’t see the whole of the unconscious–it’s not like looking at an egg, an object before your eyes–for the subjectivist perspective is the perspective from the inside–what the ego sees. From the point of view of the ego, the unconscious, if noticed at all, would look like a dark region inside a room. The ego would be standing in that room, closed off by walls behind him and on each side, and in front of him would be this vast stretch of darkness. He could not see far enough into it to tell if there was a fourth wall there. For all he knows, it could stretch off into the infinite depths of space. He can tell that the side walls continue on at least a little ways into the darkness, and therefore it is obvious that at least a part of this personal space of his lies within darkness, but there is no reason to presume there is any sharp cut off between his personal space (the region within the walls) and whatever great expanse lies beyond it–no reason to believe a back wall exists at all–so the personal space may well just merge seamless into a collective space.
Of course not! I just realized this was stupid question to ask a few minutes after I hit submit. It’s like asking: does having higher social confidence and being drunk have the same effect on the brain. I highly, highly doubt it. For one thing, getting drunk makes you stumble, slur your words, want to vomit, want to sleep, and gives you an awful headache the next morning. Having social confidence doesn’t. But getting drunk will give you greater social confidence, at least temporarily. So there’s gotta be at least a few differences in the brain between having high social confidence and getting drunk, though the part responsible for social confidence might be the same.
So if meditation lessens the number of thoughts entering the mind, does that mean that when thoughts do enter the mind, they might still be too quick to notice?
So what is it then that raises one up spiritually in the long haul–that is, as one gets older and more spiritually practiced or enriched–is it just the knowledge and insight one gains from the practice of meditation? I’m a bit confused because you seem to be using “knowledge” literally–I was using it as a metaphor (for something that stays in the mind once you acquire it)–which would imply that the knowledge one gains from the experience of meditation is what lifts one up spiritually in the long haul.
Hm, didn’t know that. Then it’s just Christianity which is 90 degrees from Hinduism.
But then I’m confused. How do spirits from other realms acquire a human body to occupy in this realm? How do human beings themselves reincarnate? I mean, if a baby is born with consciousness anyway, how does the consciousness of the reincarnating soul get into the same body? Does one consciousness get kicked out for the other? Do they meld together? Does the reincarnating soul inject his consciousness into the body before the body’s natural consciousness has a chance to come into being–like when it’s barely a zygote?
