What is the importance of dreaming in todays world?
Could you accept an instance of ‘impossibility’?
Do you project yourself ‘outside’ of the normal world?
Does anyone feel uncomfortable imagining life -without- a stable career and money? Without constraints?
It seems like we’re moving more and more towards AI, and consequently the human manifestation of it. I feel like as a world we’re loosing track of what it truly means to be human. We’re capable (in my eyes) of some of the most incredible works of art, but for many… the need to exist in today’s world requires sacrificing personal individuality, to collect a paycheck along with the masses.
Where do dreams stand in todays production orientated world?
I prefer to talk about nightmares, not dreams. dreams are what the unlearnt have, we, thinkers have nightmares because we know too much. we are the ones whom have to stare despair in the eye.
People dream less because most of us are realists now, some of us have lost the capacity for wonder.
don’t know if you can give me THE instance.
Yes
Without constraints? you mean complete freedom? people after long time in bondage is certainly afraid of the unknown. so I expect people to feel uncomfortable. Yes, I feel uncomfortable when I have no certainty. my will to certainty has to be fullfilled.
Humans make mistakes, we are less tolerant of mistakes these days. we prefer the perfection of AI.
but the AI is capable of fractal geometry.
You ought to consider what individuality you have? when you worked that out, try project your individuality. One must understand oneself before one can transcend the masses. what makes you special? there are some people who prefer individuality, like being leaders, while the rest wants to be lead like the herd.
I think first that it is important to describe what is meant by dreaming. In the four questions you have posed in your post, I get the feeling more that you are describing more of a malaise, a discontention with the modern society. Certainly, that tone is upheld because you describe the “production orientated world” infringing not only on dreaming but “personal individuality.” That the hustle and bustle of modern society has confined people to a small space within which they exist, and they cannot escape from it, and even the conception of life outside of that world has left our consciousness.
This is a tempting statement to agree with - I certainly agree with the sentiment of the statement. I am not sure that this is something that can be measured in comparison with other times, to capture the consciousness of particular generation in a particular generation. But there must be something there, with modern technology, with our freedom of social mobility, with our advanced communications, it easier than its ever been to dream within the bounds of society and achieve those dreams. But huge cultural movements, or changing the fundamental underpinnings of society has become a virtual impossibility. The same communication and freedom that facilitates dreaming within society also requires a impossibly large consensus to be built for change. It also creates a unprecedented vehicle for enforcing cultural and social norms - the hustle and bustle of life and the entertainment industry has made it hard to have “free time” where one just ponders the state of the world and dreams.
Aye, I think that if there is a decline in dreaming, its because modern society provides us an adequate dish and distracts us from criticizing it. Though, this is only in the first world countries, and even then for people who are well-off enough to discuss the issues on the internet. I think you will find more dreamers in the poor areas where people work at WalMart, in other countries where things are not honky dory. Though even then, it seems to me that outside of Al Qaeda and Venezuela, people are mostly happy with dreaming the American Dream and turning their countries into little Americas.
Yeah… this is true, but I think it’s also a result of the massive population increase. I mean, there may seem like there were more ‘true’ artists back in the day, but maybe it was just that there are way more ‘shitty’ artists now. Hollywood as a lot to do with it too though, with the demand for… entertainment art, instead of ‘art’ art.
Anvildoc,
maybe that’s all we have left… to dream within the ‘boundaries’. It’s funny… because should VR really come about, (and I think it will simply because of supply and demand) … those boundaries may actually appear to be limitless… IE: Matrix type thing…
What are you talking about? If something is created, described as art and treated as art then it is art. The only real difference is that art used to be solely paid for by the rich, now it is paid for by everyone…
OG, I like your opening post. Two groups come to mind: the ideologists and romanticists. They are the true dreamers.(At least, it could be argued). The dreams that each of us, the individual, makes seem like those temporary escapes from current living condition, until we get tired of it and again dream of something better, and the vicious cycle goes on…
I think the romanticists and the ideologists, in the true sense of the words, believe in changing the world and have their eyes fixed on the world that we would normally call unattainable or impossible. And anvildoc is right on target when he says “In the four questions you have posed in your post, I get the feeling more that you are describing more of a malaise, a discontention with the modern society.” Yeah, it seems that dreaming, at least the kind that the romanticists and the ideologists dream of, arises out of a negative perception of society. It seems that the concept “modern” is whatever is current (Foucault takes a stab on this, I read a short passage on what he thinks about “modernity”).
I think anvildoc’s post is a keen observation of the phenomenon of dreaming for a better society. This line, “I think that if there is a decline in dreaming, its because modern society provides us an adequate dish and distracts us from criticizing it” has been one of the most important insights in the subject of societal/governmental criticism, I think. We are being fed just enough to make us complacent, and in the process, it makes us also uncritical and unconcerned of what’s going on beyond our immediate daily interaction with the world. We become myopic and alienated.
Focus determines reality (or the realness of the reality you chose to face yourself with). - Qui-Gon Jinn
Certain people have a perspective on things that they think is right. These certain people happen to be at the head of countries like the US. They have a lot of power. Enough power to convince a nation of individuals their view on things through the Television or other forms of media. They shove their view in our eyes without us really even knowing it. The ‘dreamers’, if you will, for some reason are more sensitive to unfocusing. Some theorize it has something to do with evolution. They have a harder time focusing on just one perspective. They see through the leaders’ plans. Unfortunately, the dreamers are the minority. We try to speak out. We try to explain our individual perspective, but we are silenced before we can say a word.
If you are good at focusing on their perspective, you will go far in their reality. You must also remember that you can still dream. Just keep it to yourself. Keep it secret. Keep it safe. In fact the better you can focus on other realities, the better you can focus on theirs’. A kind of practice. Explore your dreams, including this one. They are all beautiful in their own right.
I agree as well. It seems like we must in a way… adapt the way that we dream. To me it seems like to subsist in ‘todays’ world (the commercialized one at least) you must give up a bit of the freedom you might have had say… 1000 years ago.
It may seem like we are dreaming ‘less’ or… in a more worthwhile way, but I realize now (I didn’t at the start of this thread) that dreaming is more of a spectrum, we must adapt the way we view it in order to fully utilize all that the action offers us. At least… in the world most of us know.
Yes, very much so, but to the detriment of humanity. But I wonder if this is necessarily detrimental. I mean, the categorization or description of civilization, say of Rome, by historians seems to always have this focus: what were the Romans trying to achieve, or what do the western societies have in common?
Sort of like, we have this trait, a desirable trait—being a dreamer–, but it only occurs in 1 in 10,000 births or even less than that, (hence a minority). The dominant paradigm gets to say their perspective, their reality. And then what? Isn’t this always the case anyway? Political struggle will always involve dominance of those in power. And perhaps the best we could do is either convince ourselves that their perspective would work out fine in the end, so no harm in accepting it. Or wallow in bitterness and sense of struggle and grow old frustrated and defeated. I think we do a lot more of self-brainwashing than we would readily admit.
between that and the immediate posts above, i sense a little post-material angst, methinks?
well, my trite answer is that dreams are in the R&D department and are subjected to the ongiong utilitarian cost/benefit analysis. that ain’t all bad, as in these may be dreams in action - though certainly very narrowly focused. and certainly “thinking outside the box,” the most abused paradigm these days, can have it’s profits as it were. i’d say that is at least tapping into the creative well that also gives us dreams.
what bothers me is the pace and hustle and bustle… i used to live in, and it looks like i will soon be returning to… Los Angeles. so, i have had more than a few idle moments in my car - STUCK IN TRAFFIC HELL - to ponder, “what the hell am i doing here?” and “who the f*ck dreamt up this bullshit dystopia” while day-dreaming about driving my car either through or over all the other droogz in front of me.
my short answer is that dreams are undervalued, and we need to encourage more investment in them - and have more of them!
especially in this emerging, neo-liberal corporatocracy that we seem hell bent on perfecting to “maximum efficiency” - as opposed to what i like to think of as a more subtle and important notions of “being happy” or perhaps “maximizing happiness,” while also minimizing the harm. there is too much harm, moslty because we are not thinking and planning well. perhaps this is because we have wondered too far from the world we dreamed up and are too deep in the world we have allowed to develop? so, i think i share what i perceive as your lament.
They did this study where they locked this scientist of sorts in a windowless room with clock of any kind. They were in there for a month, with lots of stuff to do… but no clocks. Anyways, after a while the observers…observed that the subjects sleep patterns changed dramatically where the the subject was sleeping like near half of the day.
I mean… ever wonder if, provided there actually are aliens out there, our ability to ‘dream’ or be asleep is part of what dramatically sets us apart from non-humans? I feel like it holds a greater purpose we have not yet actualized as a global community.
i like to use a frame or two from that movie as an avatar now and again. a must see film, if i do say so myself.
i think that average lack of sleep and the condition of the modern industrial world are likely very related phenomena. ya’ know how they have those “traits of the successful” things? they typically don’t get a lot of sleep. very telling that.
a world without dreams and dreamers is perhaps the world of living nightmares? hmmm, something to think about/
