Dropout Nation

[coberst]

Dropout Nation

A wealthy nation just like a wealthy family can maintain a high standard of living even while making a plethora of serious errors in judgment. Someday, however, these serious errors and just the normal course of events will turn the wealth of both into hard times. The degree of error, coupled with the degree of wealth, will determine just how long the fun-and-foolishness can last.

In the recent copy of “Time” the special report is “Dropout Nation”, where “30% of America’s high school students will leave without graduating.” This is a story about the sorry state of education in America and that these facts have remained hidden from the public by our leaders; responding, no doubt, to the desire of the population to remain narcotized in la-la-land.

Every nation, I guess, gets the type of leadership it deserves; the only question is how long America can withstand the foolishness of its citizens.

A rich nation just like a rich family can make many mistakes that never affect their standard of living until someday the mistakes finally take a toll so great as to swamp their wealth and the standard of living goes.

Our understanding is the ‘high-place’ from which we view a domain of reality. Most of our understandings are a result of social osmosis (effortless often unconscious assimilation) in our young years. Occasionally we add to or modify these inherited understandings by concentrated intellectual activity in our adult years.

I think we need to lay off the self-induced narcotics and make a concentrated effort to modify or add to our inherited understandings before our national wealth can no longer protect us.

I am speaking about the United States here but I suspect this applies equally in most other nations. What do you think?

[Faust]

I think that there is more to life than schooling, and that our standard of living is arguably “too high”. There is life without algebra, suit-and-tie jobs, and a better iPod.

[coberst]

@faust

I think that there is more to life than schooling, and that our standard of living is arguably “too high”. There is life without algebra, suit-and-tie jobs, and a better iPod.

I doubt that anyone would dispute your judgment here. Why do you want to state the obvious with such energy?

[Faust]

coberst - you may have been in the dark about the national dropout rate, but what yo saw wasn’t exactly a ground-breaking expose. You claim yet another evil plot by our leaders. Our leaders have been talking about education a lot lately. Why would you want to state a broad social exigency with such simple-mindedly political energy?

[coberst]

@faust

coberst - you may have been in the dark about the national dropout rate, but what yo saw wasn’t exactly a ground-breaking expose. You claim yet another evil plot by our leaders. Our leaders have been talking about education a lot lately. Why would you want to state a broad social exigency with such simple-mindedly political energy?

I did not include in the OP that the article stated that the general impression was said to be much lower than 30%.

[Faust]

And this must be the fault of our “leaders”. We can certainly lead ourselves to Google. This information is not exactly kabalistic arcana. Nor is it automatically bad news. That Time magazine says it is, is not enough of an argument for me.

[Mastriani]

Personally, I couldn’t care less what Time or “our leaders” say … they are both fallaciously inclined liars serving personal agendas … to wit:

The simple fact for any discerning individual is the very sad state of the youth of this country, not just ethically, but educationally as well. Most young, if you want a percentage I’ll go at least 70, cannot speak or write what is considered proper english …

All the while people turn their head, China turns out 500,000 engineers a year, India 300 to 350,000 … and coberst’s angle has a definitive truthfulness to it …

Money can’t save you forever, especially when foreign entities are taking it away as fast as our government can give it away …

I give it two generations … tops, one more is the likely scenario, i.e., when the youth of today become drooling mongoloid parents of even more ignorant, unreared, virtually thoughtless fools …

Formalised, institutionalised education is not the answer to everything, but the social debauchery of this country affects every fiber of every life area with it’s disease of blinded ignorance, hidden in Jerry Springer, Basketball thug promises, government rhetoric, and fundamentalist lies …

Like the next generation even stands a chance, when we will all be too busy bitching on the internets to take the time to do anything about it.

[Faust]

Mast - let me ask you - these engineers - are they all four-year grads? Are all engineers, from all schools in all countries equal? It’s easy to flash stats and easy to generate them. There is some truth behind these stats, but it’s not the truth that these stats purport.

In any event, it’s not the number of grads that counts - it’s where and how they are employed. If they go to work for an american oil compnay, then I don’t care where they are educated. Here’s a stat - that roughly one third of all engineers are employed in the US - and this does not count those that are employed by US companies abroad - which is a large number - again, oil and mining companies employ many overseas. It’s where some of these rescources are. I suppose that this is another example of decline. God should have given us more.

The ethics of the youth have been looked upon badly by those who are no longer young for centuries. I don’t go for this while “things are worse than ever” stuff. That’s been said for centuries, as well. What is considered proper english is also debatable. Language lives.

[someoneisatthedoor]

Capitalism, like most hierarchical power/wealth/knowledge systems, needs its share of ignorant, stupid people who don’t know any better, or people who are economically desperate, otherwise the shitty jobs would never get done.

Therefore, it is in the interests of countries like the US and the UK to have a sustained flow of morons to do horrible things that the rest of us are too polite to contemplate as a means to making a living. Just like it’s in the interests of such countries to have smokers
a) keep on smoking and paying taxes.
b) keep on dying of smoking-related illnesses so that they cease to be a drag on natural resources (preferably prior to pension-claiming age).

[Mastriani]

faustest,

Your commentary is predictable, if nothing else.

Of course there is always a degree of disagreement between generations, but the degree is no longer equatable to just “disagreement” … and I don’t qualify as being old enough for being out of touch, I simply don’t accept total lack of character as excusable because of generational change. Period. Sugar coat it all you like, it isn’t the same as the disagreements between my father’s generation and mine.

Your perspective of engineers issue is typically sheepley. Those engineers that China and India are turning out aren’t staying overseas … they are taking American jobs in droves. Read a couple of CIO periodicals for reference. Engineers are most certainly needed, and American universities turn out a sparse 25 to 27, 000 per year.

Another point of reference faustest: The competition to get into universities in China and India is much greater than here in America, simply as a consequence of population mass in those countries. Only the best of best get into those programs, and they are superior in education and ability to most of the ones spat out in this country.

God should have given us more.

LMAO. Cheap shot, but I’ll take it.

Certainly American english is mutt whore of all languages; begs, borrow, and steals from anywhere, without remorse or recompense. But accepting a standard of no standard is strangely weak minded for someone of your caliber, that I find a bit surprising.

[Faust]

Wow, I never knew how much I was helping out (puff-puff). And it’s not just smoking - in my winter job, I chop vegetables in an immigrant-only (during some hours) kitchen. Am I taking a job away from an immigrant moron? Do native-born morons actually hurt the economy?

I’m going to have another cigarette and think about this.

[Doug.E.Barr]

I hope I don’t get shit on for changing the subject but I would like one of the masters of statistics to tell me how many prophetic philosophers each country is dribbling out. You know, the people who try to look ahead and let the rest of humanity know the direction in which all the engineers are taking their ‘train’, in case they care.

[Ierrellus]

DEB,
Why reiterate Pascal’s dead horse?
Anyone can see that the majority of Americans, as consumers, will satiate themselves into impotence. The video/voyeur mentality, sold and bought, makes for flaccid minds and obese bodies. The results are clear.

[Faust]

Mast - to say that the disagreements between your father’s generation and yours, and yours and the next are different is to say nothing. It’s different. So what? Should it be the same? That is your assumption. Morals, and mores change. You assume yours are correct. They don’t. I have seen your argument, as amended, for many generations of literature.

You, Mast, are the sheep, here. We have the jobs - they take them. We need the engineers - who cares where they were born? We want them to come here and take them - again, we need the jobs filled.

The competition within China is irrelevant. You are only comparing each Chinese to another. The relevant comparison is to all other engineers. Many of these engineers are not four or six year engineers, as they are in the US. My brother-in-law is a defacto engineer with two years of school. The raw stats mean nothing.

What counts is that the work is being done, and that american companies are successful, which the largely are and that the US economy is by leaps and bounds, for the last hundred years at least the most vibrant and healthy, which it is.

edit - there are standards. Try talking slang with the young folk - they are just as censorious as you are.

another edit - the CIO is a lobbying group - get real.

[Mastriani]

Mast - to say that the disagreements between your father’s generation and yours, and yours and the next are different is to say nothing. It’s different. So what? Should it be the same? That is your assumption. Morals, and mores change. You assume yours are correct. They don’t. I have seen your argument, as amended, for many generations of literature.

You can choose to be intolerant or unaccepting of variance, but that doesn’t obviate the fact: The gradient betwixt generations is now a chasm, which is not true of my father’s generation or mine.

Of course morals, morays, and mores change … the gradient of the current demographic teen/early adult … those are now approaching absent, null, voided, non-existent.

That is a difference worth noting, to any discerning individual.

**note: ethics are superior to morals, another difference of a discerning individual.

You, Mast, are the sheep, here. We have the jobs - they take them. We need the engineers - who cares where they were born? We want them to come here and take them - again, we need the jobs filled.

LOL, no, I’m not a capitalistic sycophant faustest, but you certainly sound off just like one.

The competition within China is irrelevant. You are only comparing each Chinese to another. The relevant comparison is to all other engineers. Many of these engineers are not four or six year engineers, as they are in the US. My brother-in-law is a defacto engineer with two years of school. The raw stats mean nothing.

Nice erroneous presumption, but wrong. I’ve spent the last twelve years working with electrical, software, hardware and network engineers … almost all of whom are Chinese or Indian … and the competition within their respective countries is very relevant … because we don’t end up with incapable engineers from those countries, because they are the best of the best … and you don’t get an engineers degree in two years in China or India.

The raw stats mean nothing.

Only when they don’t support your opinion.

What counts is that the work is being done, and that american companies are successful, which the largely are and that the US economy is by leaps and bounds, for the last hundred years at least the most vibrant and healthy, which it is.

Our economy is not currently healthy, and becoming more unstable with each passing year. Rest on the laurels of the past if you wish, but this isn’t the bull economy of the fifties, not even remotely similar.

edit - there are standards. Try talking slang with the young folk - they are just as censorious as you are.

LOL, what an imp. I have two twenty one year old males and a fourteen year old male … how else do you think I have line on their minds? I guarantee I spend more time with the youth than you. No, they don’t censor based on ethics, they censor based on pseudo-machismo bs founded in erroneous thinking.

another edit - the CIO is a lobbying group - get real.

? Are you drinking? Or actually that blatantly ignorant.

Here, allow me to spell it out for you: Chief Information Officers … there are about twenty periodicals available from the world’s industry leaders in information and pertaining technologies.

[Faust]

Mast -

**note: ethics are superior to morals, another difference of a discerning individual.

Then call me undiscerning - I know of no useful distinction between the two words.

LOL, no, I’m not a capitalistic sycophant faustest, but you certainly sound off just like one.

This has nothing to do with capitalism per se. I just don’t care where a person is born.

Nice erroneous presumption, but wrong. I’ve spent the last twelve years working with electrical, software, hardware and network engineers … almost all of whom are Chinese or Indian … and the competition within their respective countries is very relevant … because we don’t end up with incapable engineers from those countries, because they are the best of the best … and you don’t get an engineers degree in two years in China or India.

You miss my point - it was that yours is a rhetorical point only, as the comparison you make is flawed. I’m sure these guys are just the greatest. You just didn’t establishe that with your comparison.

Only when they don’t support your opinion.

Raw stats never mean anything - ask any statistician.

Our economy is not currently healthy, and becoming more unstable with each passing year.

This is just factually incorrect, and not a response to my point - I was not talking about the last six months (which have been very good, nonetheless).

? Are you drinking? Or actually that blatantly ignorant.

That’s just nasty bitch stuff, which I will not claim is beneath you. I didn’t understand your abbreviation. That is just childish.

[Gobbo]

@Faustest

Our economy is not currently healthy, and becoming more unstable with each passing year.

This is just factually incorrect, and not a response to my point - I was not talking about the last six months (which have been very good, nonetheless).

No it’s not.

But ‘economy’ is a very tricky concept to nail into a statement like that.

[Faust]

My point is that never in the history of the planet has there been an economic engine remotely like the US has been for many decades. When I hear how bad things are, I always want to know “compared to what?” I don’t always get an answer.

[Doug.E.Barr]

@Ierrellus

DEB,
Why reiterate Pascal’s dead horse?
Anyone can see that the majority of Americans, as consumers, will satiate themselves into impotence. The video/voyeur mentality, sold and bought, makes for flaccid minds and obese bodies. The results are clear.

I remember “Pascal” from math studies. I was not aware he was a “prophetic philosopher” so I searched him. I discovered something quite remarkable so I have you to thank. I don’t know if I understand your reference to “Pascal’s dead horse”. I think you are saying that present day ‘Pascals’ are fools to waste their time because the self-destruction of humanity is “clear” and inevitable. If my interpretation is correct your assessment is welcome and a check mark will be made in the column, “fool”.

[Faust]

Oh, Mast - I spend my entire workweek (which sometimes approaches sixty hours) with the fourteen to twenty-five year old set. I have been a schoolteacher. Don’t try to pull this “I’m a parent and you’re not, so I know all about kids and you know nothing” stuff. That’s baloney.

The economy of the fifities was great for unions, and was also an aberration caused by the destruction of Europe’s economy, as you well know. There is more to the economy than trailer trash making an upper-middle-class wage at the auto factory.