Dualism

One of the main historical differences between eastern and western philosophy is that western embraces dualism and eastern philosophy denies dualism on a fundemental level.

Now by allowing dualism western philosophy was allowed to schism into religion, science, metaphysics, Alchemy etc. wheres this was not allowed by eastern philosophy. This has ment western science has blossomed with thinkers from newton to freud.

But here comes an interesting question, although dualism is very useful to be able to describe different parts of philosophy well, and thus make much progress in different areas, is dualism still fundementally a fallacy? It could be that in any attept to describe something to a useful extent means describing it in an incomplete way. This is a two way criticism; on one hand eastern philosoph was right to point out that dualism is fundementally wrong but on the other hand it failed to see its usefulness for describing reality.

What conclusions can we bring from this in light of the knowledge that western science has brought us? It would seem to many people that due to a scientific understanding that there is no room for metaphysics in our enlightened age. But what if the line between metaphysics and physics was never drawn? What if the mind/body dualism was never assumed. Sure its useful to talk about the body without acknowleging the mind but to assume the two are fundementally seperate is wrong.

I think the problem here is that we have moved from assuming both metaphysics and physics exist seperatly to assuming only physics exists. Where in actual fact it is just that metaphysics is physics. Let me be more explict metaphysics means ‘beyond’ or ‘outside of the scope of’ physics but it also refers to many ideas and concepts very well defined in western philosophy. What we need to understand is that all these ideas and concepts are not nonsense because due to our new understandings only the physical world exists but that these ideas and concepts are a part of the physical world.

This means that our actually understanding of what it means for something to be ‘physical’ must change. Because now physics is not dual to anything. Everything is now physics. (Remember ‘physics’ is just a word philosophy should be able to change the meaning of a word. Here we could come up with a new word or use a better suited worrd than ‘physics’. Physics seems to imply a dualism but here we want to put an end to that)

Its a subtlity here we are because in a way its similar to materialism in which only the material world exists. The difference is that we have actually have one world that exists that can be described as the material world i.e. like the old dualist physical world. But that description would always be incomplete.

It would be wrong to say that modern physics proves this argument with such strange phenomena as the wavefuction collapse between quantum physics’ wave description of matter and classical macroscopic observables. But it certainly hints at something. I think its safe to say that quantum physics still has no satisfactory philosophical description so to draw conclusions is wrong.

What I believe is need is actually to use different language to describe physics. By this I mean how we talk about the actual equations themselves. The equations are what they are(provided they are correct) but the manner in whic we talk about them must change if we are to make Physics ‘mean all that there is’.

To understand what I’m getting at here I need to make a very important point. Non-dualist physics should be able to explain how the mind/brain(where mind/brain are one thing in the correct non-dualist description) works. (I’m not saying this should be our best way to describe how the mind works; just that it should in theory be able to. We can in theory describe how a car works via relativistic quantum field theory its just easyer to talk about it via classical mechanics.) Dualist classicalphysics language only ever describes particles feeling forces from other particles and moving as a result thus all we describe are motions of particles in space dictated by fields, which themselves vary acording to time and space. This descriptive language could never describe a the fact that some matter actually experiences what things are like; yet our minds do exactually that.

Conscious experience must be a holostic effect in a physical description. By this i mean it is not a property of a single atom but all the atoms of the brain together…

Ok i’ll write more later…comments would be appreciated…also my grammer sucks…will edit soon.

Dualism has allowed the metaphysicians to go their own way, which means that they are out of the way of science - out of the way enough, at least.

Science does describe the brain - is attempting to, and seemingly having some success. It’s only when you introduce the mind/brain dichotomy that there is a need for science to describe it/them “dualistically” - I don’t think the scientific community feels that need. You know, according to cable TV, anyway.

I don’t quite get your point here,Fin. There is nothing “dualistic” about hard science. Ghostbuster stuff, maybe.

I think there is less confusion among scientists about any “duality” than there is between scientists and the more generally godfearing general public.

Science is dualistic because the seperation is made between science (or natural philosophy) and metaphysics. This is a traditional seperation that was made when both science and metaphysics were accepted by scientists. Therefore the traditional descriptions of science have always been concerned with what was percieved as the physical world and not with metaphysics. It is only now that our great scientists in general reject metaphysics. Understand my point?

What do you mean here? Science does describe how the mind works and how the brain works in almost total seperation. Take neuroscience and psychology these two are far from married in our understanding. We don’t understand how the mind comes from the brain.

No, I don’t. Science is not dualistic - it deals with only half of the dualistic viewpoint. That makes it monistic.

You are assuming that the mind “exists”. Science doesn’t seek to “understand” how the mind “comes from” the brain. It doesn’t make that assumption - that the mind is more than a figure of speech.

What you are saying here is that science doesn’t account for your own dualistic view. Mebbe you should be questioning that view (yours) as well as that of science.

Ok hold on a sec. My last post was confusing I guess. You are misunderstanding me some what.

What I orginally ment when I said science is dualistic is exactly what you say that it only deals with half of the dualist view; physics not metaphysics. For it not to be dualistic would mean that it didn’t regard the dualism to even exist, so there is no physics or metaphysics only reality. This view is a philosophy of science view.

I don’t have a dualist view that is the whole point in what I’m saying. So you really must of misunderstood me entirely.

What I am saying is that traditional western thought, not modern western thought or my thought, was dualist in the sense of mind/brain physics/metaphysics.

So to even say that there is a difference in meaning between the words mind and brain is a dualist statement.

Science does seek how the arrangement of matter that is the mind/brain functions.

I don’t agree that the mind is just a figure of speach. My Mind= My brain= My ego in a non-dualist point of view. “I think therefore I am”. So mind is.

Heres an intersting point though. All we can experience is our mind but our experience ok the world around us is not an exact map. What i mean is what we see, hear, feel and taste is not just a measurement of ‘what is’. To make this clear if I experience someone elses mind/brain all i can see is the grey matter I don’t experience there mind/brain as they experience it or as I experience my own brain/mind In the way of throughts. This is because I am my brain/mind. If I open someones skull and look in I don’t ‘see’ what they think.

I suppose you could say if we could somehow ‘read’ the workings of the brain/mind this could in theory be possible. But really its not since to measure all the works of the brain would be impossible without destroying it.

Again I have more to say on this subject that was just a responce. Hope in clears it up some what. My points here are very subtle. Ineffect I am arguing for materialism for all the good reasons to do so and non-dualism as well the subtlty comes in how these two should properly be understood together.

Yes, there seems to be a semantic problem here. Dualism would take into account both views, which science does not. I think, in practise, science does not allow for metaphysics. How could it? That doesn’t mean that scientists can’t be dualistic, but they are not, in practise, dualistic as scientists.

Traditional Western thought may be dualistic, and it surely is, but there is more to traditional Western thought than science.

“I think therefore I am” is practically a dualist anthem. Maybe not by itself, but in the original context in which it was uttered by Descartes, it is unmistakeably dualist.

There is no such thing as an exact map. That doesn’t belie a usable correspondence.

You can’t argue with “I think therefore I am” can you? It doesn’t imply dualism in anyway its just that in a non-dualist philosophy its a trivial statement.

In some ways what im aiming to achieve is a for science to alllow for metaphysics thus removing the dualism between physical and metaphysical.

Lets take a physical description of the brain in the classical theorectical physics sense. We just have a number of particles all with a momentum and a postion. If we apply the equations of motion to this we just get a totally physical description of the brain thats deterministic. If these laws of physics can exactly mimic the workings of a real brain theres no functional difference between this description and the real brain description then assigning the real brain consciousness is totally arbitary. Thus we have a dualist description. We could say the universe runs on these laws that simply describe how the position and momentum of matter changes with time and A) thats all there is or B) this description describes consciousness. But a brain in universe A) still runs on the same laws, as in universe B), it is still exactly the same functionally, yet it is not conscious.

But if we instead use a different fundemental description by which I mean we don’t use the words ‘momentum’ or’ position’ as fundemental descriptions of ‘whats going on’ then we could describe how matter can experience the external world. I don’t mean that we use different physical laws or equations I rather mean we describe what the equations mean.

So to be clear I’m not saying the scientific method is dualist. I am saying the way we think about science as particles with momentum in space and time is. Although that description is useful to gain limited understanding of nature and then manipulate it in philosophical terms(where we are only concerned with truth not usefulness) it is not. But further more when we do have the correct physical description of matter we may well find many usefull things.

Science is not concerned with metaphysics but it doesn’t reject it. Yes its semantics I take dualism to mean belief that metaphysics and physics are seperate definable things even if one rejects metaphysics. Where as a dualist simply rejects the dualism all together and simply calls it all one reality.

It’s what “I am”, exactly,that sparks the debate. If I am an entity with a dual nature - this was what the author was talking about - it settles the question before it is asked. Have you actually read the work in which this appears?

I am not sure how a description of the brain is “deterministic”. In that it assumes causation? It does, but causation is here limited to physical (biological) function - the set of data is limited - there is no reason to draw any further conclusions - to take causation to its “logical” conclusion. It is not a philosophical problem yet - just as it becomes one, science leaves off. I think you are looking for a Unified Theory and Practise for Absolutely Everything. That’s a common wish among philosophers.

I think it is consciousness that has thrown you for a loop here. Consciousness is not perhaps the mystery we think it is. We are aware of our own existence - brain function. Actually, it’s just about an “everything” function. The whole nervous system, at least. So why can’t science describe consciousness? It’s just not the big deal that a narcissist like Descartes would make it out to be.

Maybe we should just get over ourselves and live. Consciousness is a physical process. Wondr’us tho’ it may be.

No I haven’t read it…sorry. I all ways took “I think therefore I am” as a one line proof or a defination of what I is. Dualist or non-dualist the ability to think defines something being an I thus “I, Robot” implies the robot can think…haven’t read that either or seen the film.

I think science can describe consciousness. But we do need to understand science on a different footing to do so.

Sorry to jump in but here is my two cents, if it’s worth anything.

I think therefore I am is dualistic. It means “if everything around me is a lie, then the fact that I am thinking proves that my existence is not a lie.” So it is a fundamental separation of ‘I’, or mind, from what’s outside the mind.

The main problem is something Fin spoke of earlier, that the mere mention of mind and body is subject to a dualistic nature of thinking. In order to base an argument on the fundamental idea that is against dualism one must assume that mind and body are the same thing before actually beginning the argument. The way you do this is to think of what is common between the two traditional views of mind and body which is information.

Consciousness is not a magical emergent phenomena that ‘comes from’ the brain somehow, but is instead a specific type of relation of information. The world is made up of information between particles, between cells, between forces and so on, and we as organisms are part of this world. There is only one universe after all. It just so happens that the way information is transmitted from outside the body to inside the body is through the senses. This information then travels to the brain. If you know anything about the brain what it does is store information by manipulating the strength of pathways. So what the brain does is create a localized ‘model’ of the world by categorizing information in a highly organized manner through both space and time.

Yes, our brain creates a 4 dimensional informational model of the universe that we experience. This is what I believe is consciousness. All this information outside our bodies is being condensed into a very efficient information processing and organizational system, and this little ‘ball’ of information is your ‘mind’.

So fundamentally there is no difference between information in your ‘mind’ and in ‘the world’ besides how it is organized and processed. It’s all relative.