Dualistic Theory.

How is it possible that we find this material,dull,unintelligent universe produced from a God ,who is not material,but who eternal intelligent?
How,if the cause is pure and perfect,can the effect be quite different.?

Not everyone finds the universe “material, dull, unintelligent.” I certainly don’t.

Jonquil,
I was seeking discussion over the dualistic theory.
I think your way is different to think over the subject.
Anyways,your ideas are always welcome.
Thank you.

But I was replying to your view. So, if I don’t see the universe as material, dull, and unintelligent, then isn’t it just possible that I don’t see the dualism that you do?

Hmm…
So you were replying to my view.
O.K.,then tell me,what my view is?

You are talking about a very specific dualistic theology found in Christianity in modern constructs whereby the eternal and all encompassing God produces this material Earth that is then seen as taken over by an Evil corrupter Satan whom places temptations into the trillions upon each persons lives to cause them to falter from reaching Heaven in the afterlife by their choice of succumbing to temptations of Evil and self-servitude.

The Dualism comes from what should ideally have been and what became; excusing the logic conflict that can arise from an all controlling God creating such an environment where the unwanted is possible; in which what should ideally have been would have been that man never fell from what is referred to as “Grace” and therefore never “known” Evil or death.
Since man did fall, his gracious God provided an out in which man was still containing a purity within himself that was like that before he “fell from Grace”, and by his choices in this life could be entered into Heaven after life on Earth where he would regain his full “Grace” once again without having to “know” Evil or death again.

This, theologically, created a consideration of a purity that is within by comparison to the impurity, do to the possibility of Evil, that is not within.
The Body is seen as part of what is not within because it is theologically seen as left behind when regaining “Grace” into Heaven; leaving only the “within” purity still “alive”; this is then called the “Soul”.
So the Body theologically becomes part of that which is not within, and therefore part of what Satan has contact with to tempt and submit.
The Soul theologically becomes part of that which is within, and therefore not part of what Satan has contact with to tempt and submit; only each person has that ability to allow Satan into their soul.

It is further considered in numerous ways, that how this “infection” (so to speak) reaches the Soul for acceptance is by first having a Body that is corrupted with Evil fully.

The Body being the access point of temptation for the Soul then theologically becomes detested for it’s ability to corrupt the Soul, and similarly the Material world is seen the same.

Later, after the theology had reached this point, it was seen as missing the wonder of God’s creation and too dark of an outlook to be completely accurate with such wonders in the world built by God; not Satan.

The theology then takes on a perspective of appreciating all of God’s work in the world; seen as nature without man; but seeing the world as flawed and broken due to man’s folly, or due to Satan’s Evil presence amongst so much of man (either or both depending on which group is talked to).

To reconcile the problem whereby God could just stop everything and return everything to purity now instead of in what seems a convoluted method of accomplishing anything for an all controlling God, variations of the theology start explaining a distant God that isn’t in direct control, but only control over the creation of everything itself; thereby leaving all to Satan or to nothing (depending on which group is asked) and thereby the purity of the Soul is seen by observing and learning all that can be learned about the natural universe (meaning the state of things without man; regardless of the thoughts about man being natural and the arguments that could follow), and that in so learning about the natural universe man is able to learn about God and move closer towards God; thereby moving closer to Purity instead of Deceit (the Body and the face value of the material).

Then the theology takes another turn into becoming more akin to pseudo-Eastern theology whereby the Purity within is not seen as in threat by the material world, but instead by one’s own Mind; thereby the setup for the Duality of Mind against Soul, in the Christian theological construct, is set in motion and a focus on controlling the Mind becomes a popular tangent so to reach a Pure Mind.

In this lat respect the Christian theology becomes more interested in sects with Eastern theologies which already have a dualism practice for controlling the Mind so to achieve a “harmony” of the “inner self”, which to an on-coming volume of Christians translates to the same description as the Christian Soul (regardless of the Eastern theological stances asserting otherwise).

This Christian concept (more akin to the first part of this post than the latter) of the split also really finds it’s true start in the 2nd to 4th centuries by focusing on the Pauline texts which were slanted markedly for considering the Body as a treasonous and dangerous thing, and seeing the Material as a place of temptation and torment; this is a common perspective found in most of Paul’s writings and quite possibly had to do with his mixture of guilt over his previous occupation, his own personal perspective of man’s weakness against temptations, and his focus on the pure “Christ” in man (paraphrase).
After adopting the Pauline view, then looking back over the rest of the Bible, the dualistic battle seems very clear and it is also very tangible in daily life between what one “wants” to do, and what one “desires” to do; addressing how such conflicting interests can exist within the same person.

Well, anyway, that’s how it’s “possible”.

Because a moron is the one judging its virtues? :-k

How can a person assume there to be a God at all and also presume that God to be judgable? Such a broken mental construct somewhat defines a moron, incapable of seeing his own illogical irrationality.

“How could this ridiculously unintelligent egg come from an obviously far more intelligent chicken?” #-o

This is an important point that is often missed. Of course, you could have skipped the ad hominems.

I suspect not. It is an issue of comparative intelligence.

We are talking about a presumed infinitely intelligent, all knowing being compared to an obviously very limited human. The human is presuming that even though the God is so infinitely wise, somehow the human still knows better. It is like the egg telling the chicken that is doesn’t know how to lay eggs properly. What, the egg knows more or better?? The egg, compared to the chicken is a moron.

In a way, a chicken cannot hatch from its hide. Who is smarter? :wink:

Still, excellent point. But accusations is accusations [-X

Aside from the fact that people have and always will judge God, even in the Bible this takes place, Monk’s thread isn’t about challenging God; it’s about the concept of Dualistic concept of a divine perfection and it’s creation being that of imperfection; how does such theologically arrive?
What is the theological logic that produces this as a possible vantage point where it would seem more natural for the creation to hold similarity to the creator in some respect, and not be shunned as is done commonly in Dualistic approach theologically.

So largely, your post is vearing towards off-topic since it wasn’t really a discussion about whether man has the right to judge God or not; but how the logic is possible for one to hold a creation as divine and perfect, and the world as temporal and imperfect.

Well now… I have to beg to differ.

Look at the OP;

He is asking how it is possible that WE, the moronic humans, find the universe to be unintelligent, material, and dull yet produced by opposite characterized attributes.

The very real answer is that WE are making the judgment that our universe is material and dull and that our God is the opposite.

It appears to be as described because that is how WE, the morons, categorized things.

WE say;

  1. God is all good, intelligent, and all wise
  2. God created all evil, stupidity, and all crap

That is “how it is possible that we find it that way”. It is because WE are the ones doing the assessing of the situation. :astonished:

Well it is!

James,

Oh, I agree fully with the logic; I’m just thinking he was asking for how the theology holds up in producing this construct…kind of a “where does this come from?” type of thing.

I could be wrong though. :confusion-shrug:

Only the unreal is unjudgable.

Your example would mean that creation would grow up into another God after a while, as does the egg.

Remove the egg metaphor, and it stacks up fine.

If God is held as better than man in all accounts, then it does hold unreasonable to consider that man would be capable of out-judging God by the very assertion of the logic that holds God as better than man in all accounts.

The Hebrews had a word for it; blameless.
In modern Bibles, it has been translated into “perfect”; but the literal is “blameless”.
Meaning, even if God screws crap up…how could any man say so when man is held as inferior, eternally, to God.

So using the metaphor…the egg would never grow beyond more than a chick eternally.

Actually that has been the intent of a whole lot of Man and religious effort; for Man to become a God-son.

To me the whole confusion in judging is a bit like saying;

“If mathematics is such a good thing, why is my bank balance always so bad.”

God, in effect, is the mathematics. It is pointless to judge the mathematics. You seek of the math in order to learn the truth of your account. You might not like the truth of your balance, but you can’t blame the math for that. If your account is negative and you owe the bank, it isn’t because math turned against you, or hates you, or isn’t being fair.

God and math are immutable blameless entities. They don’t change. What good does it do to blame a rock for being a rock?

A mature person places blame only where such blame might inspire a change. A person blaming God or mathematics will only change the person and for the worse. Assessing something as good or bad, is the same as placing blame. Why declare something that is truly immutable good or bad? It is what it is.

If we proclaim that the universe is made of ugly bad things, then such a judgment is merely causing an effect in us. We could have also said that the universe is made of beautiful good things. Either way it doesn’t change what is (“God”).

We find the universe in the state that we judge and evaluate it to be in. But we are doing that evaluating by the standard we set with our low level of intelligence and wisdom. If we were smarter, we would assess the universe as being perfectly good and assess ourselves as needing to change to properly dance with it, not the other way around.

We define “God” to be WHAT/WHO EVER created the universe and/or governs the universe. We assess the universe as ugly. We see conflict only because we are being childish in our own purview.

The perfect thing did not create the imperfect limited thing. Instead the limited thing thought itself to be imperfect.

Well said.

The world is dull only if we are dull… But if we are not dull the world is anything but dull. The world is a very strange place with many strange things going on… You just have to let go in order to see all the strange things… You have to let go of your idea of the world. You have to think a little less of yourself… There was a time when the world was not dull to you. What happened to you? The feeling is missing. How you feel is what’s important. Not what you see or what you think. . but you don’t know what to feel. You eat meat but you haven’t killed the animal. You eat bread but you haven’t grown the wheat but if you had killed the animal you would have talked to it and apologized to it for cutting its life and explained to it why you did it … but you don’t do that and so the world becomes a meaningless chore . think of your life of how suddenly and definitely it can end and then you will not have those thoughts that made you think the world is dull because you will see you are leaving so much to chance by living in the world of ordinary affairs…

My advice , and since you live in the west I expect , if you see graffiti on a wall and the wall is fenced in so no one can get to the wall then you must conclude aliens with sinister intention put that graffiti there and it’s a code. You quickly go get a bucket of water and detergent and a rag and you climb the fence and wash off the graffiti… if the owner of the property come and ask you what are you doing , you explain to them aliens put those graffiti and you must clean them.they will understand. then if you feel up to it , drive around the city and straighten any one way sign that’s loose and pointing in the wrong direction. Same with stop signs. fix them as many as you can. . then when you’re done and you think you have dome enough you just go home and relax and rest in the knowledge you have made the world a more interesting place.

when i was your age , my cousin and i used to ride our camels to the city and we just couldn’t have enough time to cover all the interesting things we saw . there .once I noticed that the statue at the top of train station was dirty and needed wiping . it was past mid nite. we were chewing herbs and i was laughing and I looked up and saw the statue .so we spend most of that nite looking and getting a ladder tall enough to reach the top of the building. we had to get off our camels and carry the ladder and we blocked traffic and drivers were shouting and yelling at us but eventually we made it .and I climbed the ladder and cleaned the statue . the people from the station came and asked my cousin what was i doing up there and he told them station master said to wipe the statue .so they just stood there and watched .

Hey guys I’ve a better idea. Why don’t we do the easy stuff first. Frankly the universe is too big, just too many galaxies and nebulas and dark matter and god knows what else . . Christians are great folks but very hard lot to figure out .I like them a lot but truth be said they’re too hard to figure out . so lets skip them too. Let us instead just cut to the chase and get to the point . simple easy straight forward dualities that we can work with .

Check this passage from the Bible. I chose it because it some of the very troublesome dualities .

“Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and urged him, saying, “Send her away, for she cried out after us.” But he answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Then she came and worshiped him, saying, “Lord, help me!” But he answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.” And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.”

  • Matthew 15:21-28

now count all the dualities in the passage. pick one and tell us what you think. I will start first . I get to pick the easy one . you do the hard ones.

1- Son of David and Lord.

This is the son of man on the one hand and god on the other hand . Lord stands for divinity because the woman worshiped Jesus and that’s an act you perform for the gods.so David for man and Lord for god.

On the face of it the woman seems to have violated the first of ten commandment . but What is significant about this violation is the dastardly history associated with it . . countless people were butchered massacred sold into slavery tortured .poisoned had their wealth taken and their lives for the charge of violating monotheism.

Truth of the matter monotheism has caused man a lot of trouble. esteemed and holy men throughout history declared piously that it is for the sake of monotheism that that they have fought and killed their brother man. And the war goes on to today and will most likely keep on going causing more suffering and loss of life .

now Jesus doesn’t challenge the woman on that score. Infact he ignores it completely. which thing is tantamount to denial of that duality or could point to a different perspective on how to interpret that first commandment .

this is important because if we’re to stop all the madness before the planet is blown away into smithereens we should consider a different interpretation .

Jesus said he and the father are one. two he asked …doesn’t it say that we’re gods? . then you also have the claim that we are created in the image of god.

I think this woman in this story by denying that particular duality passed the first test. and jesus as a result had to come at her from a different angle which
thing leads us to the second duality .

okay your turn.