Evaluating Maturity

EDIT: I added a bit in following two lines so that readers can understand it’s about specific aspects.


I thought about easy way to evaluate maturity in specific aspects.
Basically, this is to know how immature we are in certain area. :slight_smile:

To make it simple, let’s compare baby vs mature human.

Dependency: Babies are super dependent. When we grow, we gain physical, emotional, mental, financial, and other independence (or become less dependent).

Dependent attitude: For a baby, it;s normal to depend on parents or people around. While some parents prefer to keep this dependent attitude for easier control/manipulation of their kid, there are parents who guide their kid into more independent attitude. When we have dependent attitude, we have less initiative, we are less responsible, we learn less, and we are less aware, in general.

Perspectives: Babies seem to have limited or fixed perspectives. As we grow, we obtain ability to take different perspective and loosen at least some of fixations.

Reasoning/questioning: Babies have limited reasoning ability. Later, some of us will develop very basic and often false reasoning, while other may develop more abstract/relative reasoning with less limitations/blind-areas.

I’m going to stop the list and look back what we have, here.
Judging from how I wrote, I guess I see babies as somewhat limited/restricted and loosing limitations/fixations as the sign of gaining maturity.

Oh, I wanted to add a few more item to the list.

Empathy (The capacity to follow the perspective of someone in pain): Babies are often pretty self-centered being and limited in the freedom of perspective adoption. Mature person who has less fixations have more possibility in following different perspective (even that is against one’s strong preferences/beliefs).

Inferior complex: Babies don’t have it much, but infants have it. It’s normal because when we are young, we are small and weak and less capable in many many areas. So, an infant may connects and fixates young/small/weak/incapable with BAD, and older/bigger/stronger/capable with GOOD, and then strongly desire to become someone with GOOD qualities. When we get older, many of us would learn that bigger/stronger/etc isn’t always good/desirable, and leave the immature fixations. But some of us may continue to keep this, till the end.

Well, I guess we can measure the maturity of individual or culture/community/country with these criteria.

For example, American culture isn’t very mature in one criteria because of the love for bigger and stronger car/guy/gun/bomb/etc. :smiley:
But US isn’t so dependent in physical (I mean military) area.
So, US can be seen like someone with physical independence but not so mature in mentality, in a very rough and simplified evaluation.

It’s a fun and easy way to evaluate maturity of different aspects. :slight_smile:

People constantly calling others “bitch”, “emo”, “fag”, “dumbass” and the like and people who constantly try to make their own image acceptable, “cool” as colloquially, are immature people who have not come to terms with their own weaknesses and often try to project their own hidden self onto others.

This would fall under “Inferiority Complex”, would it not?

I would say so.

And if they qualified others without due evaluation, it may well mean they have rather immature reasoning ability, too.

But we are free to live as we want, including being immature. :slight_smile:

I think cross-cultural comparisons of maturity would be difficult. For example, in the states, independance is a high cultural value and therefore related to the mature adult. However, elsewhere, (I"m thinking about Poland) not asking for help might be seen as immature pridefulness as is seen in an adolecent. As you grow older your expected to get deeper and deeper into a web a favor trading that has you hoplessly depedant on family and close friends.

Now I suppose you could claim Poland is just very immature, but I don’t think the comparison is valid. Maturity is simply the quality of reaching ones adult nature. The adult housefly, the adult Hippy, the adult American man, the adult Chinese woman- these are all very differnt things and will require unique mesures of maturity.

I’m with LostGuy.

For instance, Nah, you hold independence as a high value that comes with growth.
I hold completely the opposite.

I hold that Babies don’t learn how to not be dependent, but how to be recipients and providers in one; how to become a working part.
What Babies provide in being dependent solely is of value and depended on by the family that has that baby.

Pure independence breaks the human relative bond and creates a chamber of certainty without variables.
This is convenient for safety and truth, but hinders gain and growth if not connected back to dependence.

Just as a test lab is perfect for isolation towards higher predictability and removal of variables, but is useless for further application and examination of the product’s application in other settings.

Independence is a great tool for examining; to step back from an examination itself and examine the examinations motives and influences, but it is not the progress that is higher than dependence in order.
They seem, in the realm of critical thinking, more linked.

A conclusion depends on it’s premises, and a premise depends on another conclusion, which depends on more premises, etc…

A conclusion itself cannot stand independent of a premise and arrive at an applicable thought that is conveyable to another human mind in logical format.

Maturity is having a rational reaction to any occurrence that happens in life.

If you accept the definiton of Man as a Rational Animal, then that might work.

I mean we start as animals, so to acheive our nature, to mature, we need to develop rationality.
Futhermore, the fully mature will be consitantly rational as you said.

Of course, I’ve never met such a person. :slight_smile:

I think you oversimplified on this one. IS this emotional maturity? Mental? I would guess this is not physical.

A) Everyone is to some extent dependent on others. I don’t think you regularly bake your own bread or make your own clothes. Independence is not a sign of maturity. There are a lot of independent 18+ year old kids in the US who you would not call mature. Clearly dependence or its opposite does not maturity make.
Rather, it is empowerment - the ability to act without the need to seek permission from others. This is the much touted ‘I don’t care what other people think’ attitude that is often talked about but rarely demonstrated. One can still be dependent on, say, one’s parents, but the need to consult for every action is absent.

B) Perspectives: I agree, but again, too simple. Are you talking about mature people developing more perspective angles, or developing a single coherent one?
There are logically correct perspectives and wrong perspectives. Yes, ultimate truth and as an extension, correctness, seems to be relative, but a perspective that is the nearest to measurable facts could be considered logical. Consider the case of racists; they hold scientifically improbable opinions about race, but they hold these opinions as facts. They can be said to hold an immature perspective.

C) Conceit: People are always self focused. They cannot be otherwise. All acts arise from an inclination in the body - to satisfy a need. Even the kindest person is acting on his inclination - the need to be kind, so that his view of the self will be in tune with his perceived ideal. Thus, his kindness is for his own happiness.

D) Inferiority complex: You placed young/small/weak/incapable in the same clause, as if they all have the same value in life. I don’t think any mature person would consider weakness a thing to be retained, in favor of strength. It all goes back to empowerment. Unless one were to deem passive-aggression as a mature trait, then weakness is always a weakness. Even purposeful weakness becomes a play for strength.
You talk about maturity yet you have said that ‘many of us would learn that bigger/stronger/etc’ isn’t always better - again, you placed it in the same clause. What do you mean bigger and stronger? Physically? Because as I understand, you espouse ‘bigger’ and ‘stronger’ : the development of perspective that you talked about is a widening of perspective: Bigger. The development of reasoning and questioning is a growth in cognitive strength. Then, isn’t expansion and strength always a sign of maturity, as I understand from your criteria?

Here is my take on mental and emotional maturity - That the self becomes a self contained unit, empowered and able to carry itself by its own strength. It can judge between what is right or wrong - no esoteric philosophy here, only a system that guides it to an action with a higher chance of satisfying a need.

Also, if we follow your criteria, then no country in the world is mature. If we follow mine, France becomes mature, so does the UK, US, China, India - but not Somalia, the new Iraqi gov’t, or Japan, owing to its lack of capable military strength.

Yeah, Stupid life expectancy. By the time you’re old enough to have experienced enough to act rationally in all cases you are losing your body and mind is depreciating which reduces you backwards to the mentality of an infant if progressed worse enough.

I didn’t talk about “Cross cultural comparison of maturity”.
And I was talking about the maturity in each specific area.

It means you didn’t understood well.

It’s a simple perspective. Are babies dependent in physical movement?
I mean, can they go places they want, right after the birth, without the help? :smiley:
As we grow we may gain more and more independence in physical movement, for example.

Similarly, babies are limited and dependent in thinking. When we grow, we can be more independent, although some of us love to stay dependent.

And I’m saying these are simply preference.

Yup. Some people prefer to become a working part.

And if you are talking about “team play” type of skill, I’d say we need enough individual ability for it.

And most of all, I was showing the evaluation in each specific area.
I edited OP so that people who doesn’t have habit of thinking/evaluating in specific matter wouldn’t make mistake like you.

I’m not so sure if we ever react 100% rationally.
Even our rational thought are triggered by emotion and not very logical beliefs (in subconscious region).

Maybe for moments…

Should we let life expectancy and the general idea of maturity as it has been present throughout history be the limit to what maturity can be obtained conceptually? I would say, no… but then that isn’t really maturity… To be mature is—

Main Entry:
1ma·ture

1: based on slow careful consideration 2 a (1): having completed natural growth and development : ripe (2): having undergone maturation b: having attained a final or desired state c: having achieved a low but stable growth rate d: of, relating to, or being an older adult : elderly 3 a: of or relating to a condition of full development b: characteristic of or suitable to a mature individual 4: due for payment 5: belonging to the middle po

However, I agree my initial statement seems to simple… too concise… there must be something missing that entails maturity which isn’t age… which by this definition seems to be the general expected mannerism of a fully adult human being, which means what entails it is subjective… which means my first two sentences in this reply is legitimate…

I edited the OP to insist that it’s about maturity in specific area.

And you may understand why I made it simple, later.
Unless it’s simplified, many readers wouldn’t get interested.

An adult may have the ability to bake, for example. How about a baby? :smiley:
Which is more dependent?

If you don’t see, think of dependence in terms of “limitation.”
When you are dependent, you are limited.
You can’t decide if you but the bread or bake it.

Dependency is a barrier, in this sense.

If you need to obtain permission, you are dependent aren’t you?

Nope. I would say more freedom of perspective and less fixations.
Single coherent perspective isn’t possible of most of us in these days.
Within this forum, Aidan is only person with rather unified perspective (that of hate).

I would treat it in “reasoning ability”.

Although we are all egoist. Some of us aren’t acting well for ourselves.
I mean, if you hurt others, for example, you can get bothered by them, in return.
Unless you like to be bothered, it would be against your interest to hurt others.
Similarly, if you care more about your own concerns, then you may care more about many many other things.
So, the maturity in egocentricity can be evaluated, too.

You need to understand that inferiority complex happens within the perspective of person obsessed and scared about being inferior.
For them, any of these can be considered “inferior” and push their button, so to say.

Someone with inferiority complex have tendency to see bigger/stronger/etc as desirable quality.
When we are young, we tend to have some degree of inferiority complex, and I think it’s more or less normal because we are smaller/weaker/etc compared to adults.
As we grow, we may loose this type of fixations.
So, the degree of inferiority complex can be used for evaluating maturity in psychological growth.

Roughly, it can be called “independence” in certain areas.

Well, living in the illusion of absolute moral judgment isn’t the sign of mature thinking to me.

It’s not about all around maturity.

US is relatively mature in physical strength/independence.
But it’s immature in inferiority complex.

Any evaluation requires evaluation method/unit.
It means any evaluation IS about the specific matter and not generic.
Unfortunately, not so many people have good understanding of this.
It’s why I edited and insisted the “specific nature” of the evaluation.

haha, ok then. I’m just a stickler for details.

Well, I followed your method down until the example. Suddenly, there was a switch from indivisuals to talking about the maturity of a whole culture. I assumed (forgive me) that you were comparing the US culture to other cultures- a cross cultural comparison. When calling the US culture immature in certian aspects, what referance set did you have in mind?

I certianly didn’t mean to criticise your method as a whole, it seems quite sound and reasonable. It was just the example that perturbed me a bit. To my mind, cultures not being organisms with life-cycles don’t have ‘maturity’ in the same sense as people or animals.

Although maybe I took you too litteraly. I can agree that the US government has been behaving like an immature person as of late. Let’s hope Mr. Change changes things for the better.

Exactly what I was getting at.

Nah:
Your condition of maturity, even within specific areas (which you really didn’t need to state), assumes that independence is the expected and optimal goal of the fully developed human psyche.

This is simply not the case in any realm of absolutism.

The only real statement for a “mature” psyche that one can hold is that the person recognizes their behavior and decisions, accepts them as theirs, and recognizes the impact of their behavior and decisions upon other minds.

That’s all that really plays into a “mature” psyche, and people hit that very early in life; commonly in their teens.
It’s the emotional maturity that takes longer to produce and make sense of by means of applying the “mature” psyche upon the emotions for evaluation.

This is the spot where a great deal of growth occurs. The sense of what emotion is reasoned for what purpose and end.

This has little to do with independence, though independence is one of the many constructs that can be latched onto at the time.

Again, you stand on a stance that hold independence as the end game, but I stand on the other side claiming that independence is nothing more than the half-way point.

Sometime, it’s interesting t apply a perspective applicable to one subject on another matter.
It was a little exercise in this.

And the example of US is pretty easy to understand for most non-Americans and even many Americans.

I do think culture can be seen in the perspective of “maturity”.
US is a relatively young country and has young mentality in some areas.

I knew Bush will do stupid things and Americans (at least some) would learn from it.
It’s normal for young (and also old) person to make mistakes and learn from them. :slight_smile:

I know you have issue with the dependency, but can you read again and understand “dependency” is just one of the item I suggested.
Is it too much?

“The only real statement”? :smiley:

I consider ANY statement to be relative.
I don’t think you can understand other perspectives with the fixation like that.

How can you recognize the “half-way point independence” ? :slight_smile: