Everything is relative

Quotes by the famous, like porisms or basic premises, are supposed to be considered and evaluated, especially where there is only dialectic to support them. I do not quote Hegel as an argument from authority (although he has some pull with some people). It just seemed he had made a distinction there that makes sense: something can be considered either in itself, or through something else.

Intolerating intolerance? Like Dylan said: “Some people don’t hate anything except hatred.”

As for beauty, it can be considered a criterion for truth. So, no, I should not tolerate that kind of spiritual ugliness.
But some persons just don’t get it: they might even argue whether racism’s okay or not.

In other words, I’m not sure why you’re addressing me with that argument.

mrn

Mad Man P

you are right on!

my real name

so you are intolerant of my intolerance! You want everyone to tolerate you but you are not willing to tolerate others! you hypocrite!

without realising that the existence of a race is a precondition for the existence of racism!

How can racism exist if race themselves do not exist!

just to show that you are intolerant as I am, it’s just that you do not know it.

Okay, first, how should we define tolerance/intolerance. I see it as an attitude which applies to particular ideas – not all ideas at once. So it is possible to be tolerant of one thing and not tolerant of another.

Second, racism can exist if a person only thinks there are races.
But that’s another topic.

mrn

I am saying you can not tolerate everything. so stop championing tolerance, but partial tolerance.

are you suggesting that person is hallucinating? I’ve already proven the existence of the race with help from that Satanical site. what is a race? as I said, the word ‘race’ does not create experience of race if there is no race to have the experience. words merely describe. but they never create.

as I said, to deny there are races it to deny races their existence, meaning you are genocidal. but of course that can not exist, since races do not exist. please read my creative writing piece which I wrote just for you and someone others on this site. it answers all the lies.

Just some thoughts on this :slight_smile: I realize this race question is something of a tangent to the initial question of relativism and tolerance, but a few thoughts occurred that may link the two back together…

First off, let me commend you. You’re right in asserting that races do not, in a scientific and biological sense, exist. They also do not exist as metaphysical categories. That much is clear from twentieth century genetics and generally agreed upon by modern philosophers of race.

However, races certainly exist as a social and political reality. There is no denying this. Race is socially constructed and historically malleable (we often forget in our race-torn society that the idea of race as a scientific concept is not much older than Kant and the age of European conquest!) Race was initally conceived in religious terms (missionaries and mercenaries work awful well together) and then in scientific terms and finally in political terms. But we have to remember that saying that races do not exist as the basis for a scientific or metaphyiscal categorizational scheme does not mean that racism, prejudice and discrimination do not exist. Examples are almost superfluous, but let me just mention that the median income for a white family in America is $50,000 a year, whereas the median income for a black family in America is $29,000 a year. Race, then, clearly exists, at least as a social category.

However, this all is not to say that relativism is a dead end. Society is by its nature relativistic, since it is constantly changing. A society is never the same as itself, that is, is not merely the sum nor the average of its members.

Pure criticism is not my intention, I honestly am attempting to add something valuable to this discussion. Let me say, however, that I don’t agree with either statement here, but I do want to point out that the second assertion doesn’t even logically follow from the first.

Nothing is the same as anything else. This is getting into the question of identity, that is, whether anything is ever even the same as itself. We are reminded of Heraclitus’ river which we cannot step in twice. The second poster seems to assert that we do not even step into the same river once. This is not an inherently bad position: the universe seems to be characterized by incessant change. Our bodies and our minds are in a constant dialogue with reality, both altering the world and being altered by it. Some see this as creation, others as manipulation. I’m gonna split the knot and say it’s a little bit of both.

For example, it’s true that no two eggs are alike. But they share certain properties and perceptible features. That doesn’t mean a given feature on one egg (say ‘whiteness’ or ‘roundness’) is the same feature on two different eggs, nor to say that they both participate in a universal essence or form of ‘white’ or ‘round.’ Merely that they are handy perceptual categories. The relativism emerges here because of the way humans tend to organize reality–around properties and classes. We conceive of a property (say ‘whiteness’) or a class (say ‘eggs’) by conceiving of an exemplar of the property (a specific white thing) or an exemplary member of the class (a specific egg.) We judge other things to be a member of that class or to possess that property based on their conceptual (i.e., perceived) proximity to the exemplar of that class. So I judge these white clouds to be similar to those white eggs because, in terms of their whiteness, they are relatively the same. That doesn’t mean that the two things (clouds and eggs) ARE the same thing, nor that the properties they both possess are the same propery or possessed in common. They merely have a conceptual proximity to one another.

The point is that classes and properties are not clear-cut or agreed upon. They are, in general, given by common sense and sociolinguistic categories. That is, like society, they are relative to a culture. In this sense, even logic is relative since it emerges from language. Reason (which statements make sense) can be viewed as the ‘deep’ structure of language, even deeper than syntax and grammar, although grammar also influences the patterns of our thinking.

:slight_smile: Happy holidays, everyone!

Everything is relative because whatever we can experience and/or share is affected by and relative to our perceptions and communication. Before you can say if something is A or B, you must define those things, but universal definitions cannot be found or proved for most things.

Everything is what it is, but not everybody sees it that way. You have to set a unified standard to name absolutes. Good luck unifying your standards.

Joe the Man and pxc,

I think there are points missed here. Let’s take the mentioned white eggs. Now we see and abstract the concept “egg” somehow from each oval white object. Is the concept the same for both eggs? If not, we would not put them in the same carton. What is the same is the essence of a substance (a substance is like a logical noun).

It is not logic that is based on language, but language that is based on logic.

mrn

You can’t just show someone a belief the way you can show someone and egg. You can show someone an idea the way you can show them an egg. Besides, an egg is foreign to both of you and an idea may be native to either of you.

It is apparent to me that relativism is valid. It is impossible to define any object independantly of any other object - period. Try it. Definitions like “it is a toaster in its toaster-ness” don’t count.

 The primary thing to understand is that this is not a philosophy to live by.  It can help explain things, and it can be useful in maintaining a realization of the equality in value of various sides of a conflict, but it shouldn't be a constantly life-guiding principal any more than evolutionary darwinism should.  Darwinism explains things, lets us look at them as a larger picture, etc., but is not a feasable philosophy to live by (if you kill your neighbor, it's ok, because nature obviously selected you - oh, wait.)

 Asserting that relativism makes you lazy seems like kind of a broad generalization to be made accurately.  By the way, please define laziness for me without comparing it to any other state-of-being.
 That doesn't mean that what they are used to describe is a valid way to discriminate among the objects they're describing.  Race does exist - there are groups of people with similar traits in the world, skin color being among them.  Whether or not that's a valid way to divide people is a completely different question.  
 Statistics like this abound.  It would appear that we could, having this piece of information, deduce the cause of the difference in income between these two groups.  Since black people earn less money, they must by lazy, unproductive, intentional drains on society, etc.  Of course, it could also be because the majority of black people in the workforce are subject to (un)conscious racism that prevents them from getting jobs that would put them in the same income bracket as their white counterparts.

 If you only consider the evidence we have in the one statistic, though, a single conclusion cannot be drawn.  Neither conclusion can be ruled out, but neither is certain.

 Define being a white person, without defining what it is to be a black person, a blue person, a green person, or a purple cow.  :smiley: 
  <img src="/uploads/default/original/2X/a/a8041fe32d5c63bbc6616e748e6b50af85839764.gif" width="20" height="16" alt="[-X" title="Shame on you"/> Really now, we are only intolerant of your intolerance when you act upon it in a way that is agressive/harmful towards other self-conscious beings.  And since (I am relatively sure I am correct here, but if I'm not, let me know) one who had reaced perfect detachment and perfect knowledge would be in Nirvana rather than arguing on an online message board, none of us have achieved the perfection of a totally consistant, absolutely correct worldview.  Exuse us.

 Besides, acknowledging that things are relative doesn't keep one from defining them.  It just forces you to make a few assumptions, which the relativist will make sure to do at a basic metaphysical level so that he can build from as stable a platform as possible.  It is much less justified, in my opinion, to make superficial assumptions about race without first defining how you will determine if race exists, how you will determine the identity of each race, whether or not it is moral to discriminate based on different definitions of race, whether or not you can be absolutely correct about defining race, whether or not a good chance that your discrimination will be morally permissable is enough, etc.

 Considering that we're not the absolutists, it would be wise not to apply our relatively applicable statements as you would your absolutely applicable ones.

That seems to be true of artifacts (man made objects), like machines for toasting bread, but try it with a natural object and I think the definition will tend to be the internal essence of the thing itself. Try it and see if it’s right. Man is rational animal. Egg is self-contained embryo.

You have to have either seen a man, an egg, or other things possessing the traits described to you, or the aspects of the traits described to you. It’s still relative to what you already know.

When observing an object, not urself, you can always define it as it differs from you… If you are all that exists… then you are “existence”…

But what about who you are describing it to, assuming they cannot communicate back? You have to describe based on what they know.

And Madman, this comes back to everything being relative to individual perspective. =D>

But what about who I am describing it too? who am i describing what to?

and no it does not come back to everything being relative to individual perspective…

Things exist independently of individual perspective… but things are DEFINED via purpose/function/meaning… all of which are the effects of objects on OTHER objects… so if there were no other objects… that single object is simply… “existence”

If i were to describe a toaster without relating it to other objects… i would define it as “existence” or “part of existence”

Problem solved…

“existence” is not an accurate description of a toaster.

“part of existence” is by far THE most accurate description of a toaster I have ever heard… it is just not a very thorough description… but it is ACCURATE…

existence and toasters…

Shakespeare break…

to be or not to be, that was the question…

whether tis nobler in the mind to exist sans pop tarts…

alas poor Yorick, I knew him well Horatio…

his comic timing impecable, consistently delivering the punch line as the mass produced pastries were ejected from the eternal toaster, bringing a breakfast chuckle all too often in the court…

royal mirth and pop tarts in the court abound until that fateful day when poor Yorick made the queen laugh so hard that she spat orange juice out her nose…

-Imp

really? what has it described about the toaster that you did not know before?

“Pass me my jacket, you know, the one that exists”
“'Unicorns, eh, well, they dont exist”

Isn’t this defining man by his relationship to other animals?

Isn’t this defining an egg by how it differs from other embryos?

As long as you don’t say the toaster’s essence (definition) is the same as it’s existence … or your toaster would be God.