Evolution breakthrough: There are ONLY Miracles!

Philosophy Forums Science, Technology, and Math
1

Evolution breakthrough: There are ONLY Miracles!

Just like we humans cannot perceive and distinguish events occuring at nansecond intervals without the help of machines then:

Consider a mind from a parallel universe that perceives our universe only in time increments of 5 billion years. While observing our earth it first sees only stones then a moment later it sees humans. For this mind the humans popped out of nowhere already completely “evolved” since it cannot perceive the cause and effects occuring at smaller time intervals. Hence for this mind a miracle occured, or maybe it would consider anything that pops out of nowhere, no matter how complex as the normal way of things of our universe.

Now we can imagine other similar minds having a perception and being able to distinguish only intervals of 100 years or 10,000 years or anything you want. In this case it would always see other items pop out of nowhere like cars and computers etc. These minds could not distinguish each segment of cause and effects, the chain that brought forth a new item.

But we ourselves are actually in this same situation. We cannot distinguish events at 10 to the minus 50 seconds, we can perceive naturally at most a few hundred microseconds 10 to the minus 5 seconds. So then if physics is performing complex processes at the 10 to the minus 50 seconds time interval, we could not distinguish them or follow the chain of cause and effects. The end results would be a change of a physical system from state A to state B in a moment without any cause, a CAUSELESS EFFECT for all we can perceive. But this in fact is the reality since any change from state A to state B must occur in some time interval, but the interval must end somewhere. Wherever it ends, even if 10 to the minus 1000 seconds, then the change from A to B is a sudden jump, a sudden change without no further cause, A CAUSELESS EFFECT! This is in fact A MIRACLE.

Now if the change is from any state A to any other, no matter how complex, it will always be a jump, a MIRACLE ASSIGNMENT. In fact there could not be AN INFINITE CHAIN OF CAUSES AND EFFECTS SINCE THERE WOULD NEVER BE ENOUGH TIME TO EXECUTE THEM ALL, THERE MUST BE A FINITE NUMBER OF CAUSE AND EFFECTS AND WHERE THE INTERVALS OF TIME CAN NO LONGER BE DECREASED YOU HAVE THE REIGN OF MIRACLES. It matters not what state a physical system changes from A and into B no matter how complex, it is a miraculous jump just like a complex mass-energy configuration that pops out of nowhere.

It is an aesthetic perception that a simple change like a small movement is more or less miraculous than a complex change like a particle becoming a butterfly. At the ultimate time interval both changes are acceptable and possible since reductionism is not even operating anymore, there are no longer any causes and chains of cause and effects, just miraculous transitions between different states of a physical system, just like the mind that perceives intervals of billions of years.

Hence the debate on evolution is just a debate on where to assign the miracles and at what time intervals.

2

wrong… i’d explain why but i gotta study for my exam tomorrow :frowning:.

3

i don’t think there are many scientific theories who claim to hold at such a scale of any dimension, time or space, given that the planck length is a bit over 10^-35 and planck time is a bit over 5 *10^-44

only quantum theory has something to say on that and when you understand that one, you can rightfully call yourself the king of ilp

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_length

4

Quantum Electrodynamics states that particles pop into and out of existence all the time at a small enough time and space scale. As long as it is for a short enough time or small enough energy. I think it is h=dtde.

Anyways inside the Electron, mass-energy configurations pop up and disappear all the time so these configurations can be very complex and quirky like a full blown microbutterfly. So there you got a MIRACLE.

The point is that the miracle does not consist of the contents of the quirk energy configuration but in the fact that any physical system simply changes state. If the particle becomes a photon or a butterfly or a Ford Truck does not matter at all. THESE CONFIGURATIONS ARE ALL EQUIVALENT, THEY ARE ONLY A QUIRK COMBINATION OF MASS-ENERGY so any combination whether complex or simple is the same. The fact that a state CHANGES IS AN ABSOLUTE MIRACLE.

There cannot be an infinite chain of cause and effects, this would be impossible, so the chain ends where miracles begin.

5

your time argument… is irrelevant because time is infinite divisible…
This is a philosophical issue… Parmenides and Heraclit talke about it quite a bit.
If what you’re saying would be true everything would be happening in “pictures” rather than in motion.

6

also i don’t see why you want to call “miracle” the way the universe works.
I’m very much aware of quantum physics and the world of the very small…
Many is the times i’ve asked myself what importance that has to philosophy.

But you cannot say that humans can’t notice time smaller than a nanosecond and claim that thats proof of a miracle.

7

Everything is really subjective. If you look at the surface of mars and say MATTER can SELF ORGANIZE itself into a human, it would seem impossible. It really doesn’t matter if this process of self organization occurs in one shot as a magical assignment or after a billion years of interacting with other pieces of MATTER. The path from stones to man, from A to B is not at all important, it is just a design choice, like a painting, how many different intermediate pictures would you like ? The bible says there is only one picture, evolution says there are trillions, but it is only a numerical difference.

They both agree on at least ONE CAUSE AND EFFECT, but cause and effect itself can be perceived as miraculous or normal everyday events. That events follow some ODD, QUIRKY, AND VERY ARBITRARY LAWS OF PHYSICS means nothing at all, even a magical assignment that does not follow any laws of physics at a METAPHYSICAL LEVEL is just as valid. We constrain reality within our cause and effect descriptions discovered through interacting with physics and think that this regular scheme of things is general and always valid within all ranges, but this is FALSE, there are no general schemes only some that LOOK LIKE they work for us humans in our interaction with physics.

The law of conservation of mass energy is only valid at our macroscopic space-time range. At 10 to the minus 40 seconds and millimeters, particles pop up from nowhere, last some time and then disappear according to Quantum Electrodynamics. If you are within a much shorter time range of the lifetime of the particles, you would be seeing miracles all the time. Even because the particles that pop up could be a very complex and unique combination of mass-energy somewhat like if you where to see a computer or car pop up in front of you from nowhere.

So even the concept of miracles is only a relative concept compared to what we are used to seeing. Those that live at the quantum level would think our macroscopic level is a miracle since things at our level have a slow linear “cause and effect” type flow which would be really absurd for them.

Really even evolution is quite incredible and just about as magical as a god creating people from dirt. Think of evolution as MATTER that is capable of SELF ORGANIZING ITSELF through various processes and interactions and in the end you got a human. Now that is just as incredible as the bible!

Even more interesting is the basic problem of "what is an explanation ? ". Why is a sequence of “cause and effects” as evolution describes more reasonable or true than a one shot miracle assignment by a god or an alien computer ?

At a deeper level there is really no difference between the two “explanations” or “descriptions” of what happened. It is just an aesthetical, I would say artistic preference between the two.

8

Your insight that cause and effect cannot be continuous is correct. The same conclusion was reached by Maxwell (Maxwell’s demon) and Boltzmann following the discovery of entropy, a seemingly irreducible energy reservoir found to be inherent in steam engines.

Whether the laws of physics are necessary or accidental is of no consequence. They are what they happen to be.

That is so. If nature is not continuous then each step, whether small or large, happens with a degree of uncertainty, but also arising from the previous history of the universe rather than entirely randomly.

Self-organizing complexity that sustains itself, from crystals to humans can arise only from a similar level of complexity, on the basis of all previous discoveries of a [step-wise] evolutionary process.

Here, I would start with Aristotle’s four types of explanation (four causes). Substance (what something is made of), formal (logical), historical (origin), and organic (purpose, what it is a part of).

9

You don’t see a problem with that ? I’m sorry but i happen to hold vvery dear to me the logic and rationality of this world and i cannot stay by and watch as you try and ruin it.

10

nameta9:Everything is really subjective. If you look at the surface of mars and say MATTER can SELF ORGANIZE itself into a human, it would seem impossible. It really doesn’t matter if this process of self organization occurs in one shot as a magical assignment or after a billion years of interacting with other pieces of MATTER. The path from stones to man, from A to B is not at all important, it is just a design choice, like a painting, how many different intermediate pictures would you like ? The bible says there is only one picture, evolution says there are trillions, but it is only a numerical difference.

K: You are so all over the map, it will be hard to get all the
moving pieces, but here goes. So, yes everything is subjective.
Now we run into problems, “matter can self organize itself into a
human” Later on I see you define evolution as this above definition,
but the problem is your evolution definition is wrong. If matter
could evolve itself from rock to human in one easy step,
that would disprove evolution in a very real way, that would
be a miracle, but that is not evolution. Next, you say,
“evolution says there are a trillion pictures”? no, Now evolution says
there are a trillion parts of the same picture, but its still the same
picture.

N: They both agree on at least ONE CAUSE AND EFFECT, but cause and effect itself can be perceived as miraculous or normal everyday events. That events follow some ODD, QUIRKY, AND VERY ARBITRARY LAWS OF PHYSICS means nothing at all, even a magical assignment that does not follow any laws of physics at a METAPHYSICAL LEVEL is just as valid. We constrain reality within our cause and effect descriptions discovered through interacting with physics and think that this regular scheme of things is general and always valid within all ranges, but this is FALSE, there are no general schemes only some that LOOK LIKE they work for us humans in our interaction with physics.

K: This paragraph is so all over the map, I am not sure exactly what
its saying. One line says, “… at a metaphysical level” At the risk
of getting a long drawn out answer, what is a metaphysical level?

N: The law of conservation of mass energy is only valid at our macroscopic space-time range. At 10 to the minus 40 seconds and millimeters, particles pop up from nowhere, last some time and then disappear according to Quantum Electrodynamics. If you are within a much shorter time range of the lifetime of the particles, you would be seeing miracles all the time. Even because the particles that pop up could be a very complex and unique combination of mass-energy somewhat like if you where to see a computer or car pop up in front of you from nowhere.

K: You are so mixing and maxing stuff, its hard to pin down what
you are trying to say, one thing you say, “… you would be seeing
miracles all the time”. UMMMMM, ok, what don’t we define what
a miracles is first of all and work from there. If cars and computers
were to pop up in front of me, it would be quite a sight.
But that would clearly have nothing to do with science, whereas
in quantum mechanics atoms could “appear out of nowhere” but it fits
within the science of the quantum mechanics.

N: So even the concept of miracles is only a relative concept compared to what we are used to seeing. Those that live at the quantum level would think our macroscopic level is a miracle since things at our level have a slow linear “cause and effect” type flow which would be really absurd for them.

K: Again, this idea of a “miracle” leaves much to be desired.
Kids 1-7 see “Miracles” all the time, for a kid of 6 an airplane going
into the air is a miracle and yet we know it isn’t, its science hard at work.
You haven’t really defined “Cause and effect” Perhaps it might
help your cause to define cause and effect so we know what the
hell you are talking about.

N: Really even evolution is quite incredible and just about as magical as a god creating people from dirt. Think of evolution as MATTER that is capable of SELF ORGANIZING ITSELF through various processes and interactions and in the end you got a human. Now that is just as incredible as the bible!

K: However, your definition of evolution is simply wrong.
It is not “matter that is capable of self organizing itself”.
If I understand you correctly, what you are describing is
lamarckism. By the way, Nietzsche believed in Lamarckism.
I.E. the giraffe wills itself taller to reach higher leaves in the trees.
Whereas in real evolution, the giraffes that are already taller
gets the higher leaves, they pass on those traits to their
offspring, Evolution is passing on traits though the genome that
allow a species to better adapt to an environment. If for some
reason, all the tall trees and branches vanished, then shorter
giraffes would have the advantage and the trait of giraffes
being shorter would get passed on, not the trait of taller giraffes.
Evolution is more about probability and less about certainty.

N: Even more interesting is the basic problem of "what is an explanation ? ". Why is a sequence of “cause and effects” as evolution describes more reasonable or true than a one shot miracle assignment by a god or an alien computer ?

K: well you need to define “cause and effect” first of all,
and your definition of evolution sucks, so you have some
work ahead of you before you can get to god or aliens.

N: At a deeper level there is really no difference between the two “explanations” or “descriptions” of what happened. It is just an aesthetical, I would say artistic preference between the two."

K: there is a huge difference, you just don’t understand what
evolution is, to notice what a huge difference it is.

So to recap, your definition of evolution is flat out wrong,
two, you still need to define “cause and effect”
three, you still need to define “miracles”
So once we have done this we might be able to get somewhere.

Kropotkin

11

VERY interesting. i find science must be really damn hindered by us being trapped within such a slow perception of time!

we would need some kind of photography that takes really fast pictures too see whats going on with those particles huh? scince our eyes are too slow…

all that you say has this problem:it is not a mutually supportive arguement.
that is to say:all you’ve brought to light does not seem to support each other properly.

i think your speech needs to be more organised…?

that or it just whent over my head. 1 of the 2.

but thanks, things like this help me consider new ideas,not be trapped in a philosophical hamster wheel.

12

Cause and effect is a chain of events that develop a physical system from a given state to another more or less. What cause and effect really is, is just a sequence of pictures first A then B, and this sequence occurs often and becomes a regularity, hence a kind of law of physics. But the chain must end at some time interval and the jump from state A to B is a MIRACLE.

MATTER SELF ORGANIZES ITSELF INTO A HUMAN. Now the earth was a ball of rock with some chemicals on it. This is just a piece of matter seen from a far enough view. This ball of matter self manipulates itself after many years and SELF CREATES SOME ANIMALS KNOWN AS HUMANS.
The details of how it does this, evolution is not important, what is important is that MATTER CAN SELF MANIPULATE ITSELF AND CAN CREATE THINGS OUT OF ITSELF LIKE CELLS AND MINDS.

A MIRACLE is something totally outside any possibility of happening. Something that cannot happen from what we know and see as humans. Like walking on water gives the impression of being a miracle or rising from the dead. A physical system that simply changes state from A to B is INCREDIBLE, CANNOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN, IS AN ABSOLUTE MIRACLE, IS MIND BOGGLING!

A miracle is really our subjective reaction to something completely new that we see. The Internet was a REAL MIRACLE for those sensitive enough to perceive it, but we always wash down everything into everyday events.

THERE ARE NO EVERYDAY EVENTS, EVERYTHING IS A MIRACLE AND IMPOSSIBLE TO BE, EXISTENCE IS AN ABSOLUTE MIRACLE!.

13

i can accept the arguement “everything is a miracle”. however all these miraculus things are also observed, and general patterns are organised.

also,i dont really get where cause and effect end. i’m quite a staunch beliver of cause and effect. where do they end anyway?

if i belive your whole arguement,furthermore, where does it leave me? what have i learned? it seems like some kind of meta-understanding/consept. :confused:

14

Cause and effect is when a physical system that is present in a mass-energy configuration A jumps to a new configuration B within the minimum time interval that physical events occur.

So if the minimum time interval is 10 to the minus 50 seconds, after this amount of time the system that was in A will jump to configuration B. Now B could be any other configuration, it could be probabilistic like sometimes A jumps to B and sometimes to C, it could be totally unpredictable like A jumps to C which is completely unrelated, for example a butterfly becomes a star then becomes a computer after 3 time intervals, maybe with a quantum probability of being very low, but still possible. Also the minimum time interval could be variable so sometimes the jump occurs after 10 to the minus 1000 seconds, sometimes after 10 to the 30 seconds etc.

So what is so sacred about cause and effect ? It is a sequence of pictures each picture could be anything, the jump has no cause, it is a causeless effect. Something that pops up from A to B without no cause or reason is a MIRACLE, CAUSE AND EFFECT IS SIMPLY ANOTHER WAY OF STATING A MIRACLE. We are simply used to seeing a group of constant regular transitions between mass-energy configurations which then become the laws of physics, but these laws are only models, the reality is that there are no laws of physics, only a sequence of pictures that could also become completely different from anything we could expect. So then any physical universe exists and is just as real as ours. Any sequence of pictures could pop up just like the ones we always see and this sequence is just as real and fundamental as the ones that we see regularly. Laws of physics are pure quirks.

15

First we perceive within intervals such that everything occurs in a smooth cause and effect fashion. If we perceived events every 10 seconds or 1 minute or 1 hour or any other interval, things would be choppy, would appear and disappear instantly, the world would not be a linear flow.

Now if you could have a dial that changes the perception intervals from plank times up to macroscopic times exceeding a few seconds, the entire range of intervals would always present miracle like perceptions of everything, THE CONSTANT LINEAR CAUSE AND EFFECT FLOW IS THE EXCEPTION not the norm.

Also in 100 years technology has been able to produce computers, if an advanced civilization in maybe a million years of technological evolution created minds that live within computer simulations, they would never know that there is a hidden level in their world. So like the fact that the first cell exceeds our understanding, it could be analogous to the minds in the simulator trying to understand things that origin from outside the alien’s computer. So maybe the cell problem is trying to tell us that there is A HIDDEN LAYER THAT WE CANNOT PERCEIVE in the universe, MAYBE WE ARE ALL IN AN ALIEN’S COMPUTER, MAYBE THE REAL LAWS OF THE ALIEN’S WORLD WHICH IS THE REAL ONE are simpler and allow to easily construct living cells.