Evolution - Warning: post contains scientific opinion!

^^ Were there any particulalrly expansive areas of water in Africa at that time though? The tree-dwelling theory makes more sense based on what we understand of primates today, and, yes, there was a very big advantage in coming down from the trees because at that time in Africa’s history, much of the heavy forestation that our ancestors had lived in began do give way to increasingly large areas of grass-plains and savanna. The forests became more sparse, and we didn’t really have much of a choice but to move down from the trees (which allowed us to evolve our upright posture - for seeing above the tall grass and walking longer distances - and our larger brains, which we required to both hunt food and avoid being hunted ourselves).

Oh, and the creationist mind. It never fails to amaze me how many creationists say they reject the theory of evolution due to “lack of proof” - i.e. incomplete fossil record and so on. I’m not going to start on why this perspective is wrong (as it’s already been done to death) but all I ask is that you take that that scepticism - that doubt - you so rigorously apply to the theory of evolution, and then apply it to your own beliefs. Apply it to your God. You can’t see him, you can’t feel him, he does not interfere at all in every day life… in fact, it’s farily hard to think of anything he does do these days, isn’t it? Now, apparently, the fact that paleantologists haven’t found every single species of animal that ever existed is proof the evolution cannot have happened, but God - entirely intangible and unverifiable - must exist? Think about it. If you deny the theory of evolution - which has stood up to the scrutiny of rigorous scientific examination for over 150 years (meaning it has fared better than most other scientific theories) then it would be logically inconsitent of you to continue with your belief in God. Lots of (if incomplete) proof in favour of evolution, hardly anything that supports the existence of God, much less the theory of creationism.

If religion wishes to make ontological claims - about things that do and don’t exist, about things that have and haven’t happened - then it desverves to be held up to genuine logical and empirical tests and scrutinised thoroughly. If you wish to hold evolution to such a harsh form of scepticism, then the least you can do, if you wish to be acting in “good-faith”, is to approach your own deep-rooted beliefs with the same logic.

Do you actually want to know, or are you happy believing?

bravo! :smiley:

Very well said :slight_smile:

Here’s a relevant snippet from Sagan’s Demon Haunted World. [size=92] [i]
" Tenets at the heart of religion can be tested scientifically. This, in itself, makes some religious bureaucrats and believers wary of science .
Is the Eucharist, as the Church teaches, the flesh of Jesus Christ, or is it - chemically, microscopically and in other ways - just a wafer handed to you by a priest ? Will the world be destroyed at the end of a 52-year Venus cycle unless humans are sacrificed to the gods ? Does the occasional uncircumcised Jewish man fare worse than his c-religionists who abide by their ancient covenant in which God demands a piece of foreskin from every male worshipper ? Are their humans populating innumerable other planets, as the Latter Day Saints teach ? Were whites created from blacks by a mad scientist, as the Nation of Islam asserts ? Would the sun indeed not rise if the Hindu sacrificial rite is omitted, as we are assured would be the case in the Satapatha Brahmana ?
By making pronouncements that are, even if only in principle, testable, religions, however unwillingly, enter the arena of science . Religions can no longer make any unchallenged assertions about reality - so long as they do not seize secular power, provided they cannot coerce belief. This, in turn, has infuriated many followers of some religions. Occasionally they threaten skeptics with the direst imaginable penalties.
Religious or secular, we are much better off if we know the best available approximation to the truth - and if we keep before us a keen apprehension of the errors our interest group or belief system has commited in the past. In every case the imagined dire consequences of the truth being generally known are exaggerated. And again, we are not wise wnough to know which lies, or even which shadings of the facts, can completely serve some higher social purpose - especially in the long run. "
[/i] [/size]

okay this is just my little ol opinion, but i dunno but evolution seems like alot of hot air to me. not that im willing to throw out all that evolution entails, natural selection makes obvious sense, however the way that one species can evolve into something totally different just doenst seem to work if you ask me. im sure ya are all willing to accept that the firs tliving organisms on this planet were single celled organisms. well from that i do not understand how it is possible that they could evolve to the point wher eyou got these walkin’ talkn’ things that we call human. Sure i accept that mutation occurs from the recombination of DNA from generation to generation but i don tthink that that alone could allow evolution to occur in the direction it does. why for example do animals seem so specialized? Why are there not totally useless mutations that occured and just did not offer any hinderance to the organism and becaue of it just continued down the line? sure anything extra requires extra energy, but unless it is a SIGNIFICANT hinderance, i dont see why there would be any problem with it. also things like the eyes seems to confuse me. how it is that a spontanous evolution could create such a compex system? unless within a few generations the whole system was mutated into the organism it would be deemed useless and weeded out according to classic darwinism. for vision you need a way to recive the photons, a way to process the photons, and a way ot use the photons productively for whatever reason.

darwin evolution just seems WAAAAY to convinent, and seems to have WAAAAY to many holes. so it just doesnt make sence to me. like i said im not willin to throw it all out the window… but some of it just dont make sence to me… any thoughst would be w3lcome. =)

Mutation alone could not have achieved anything. And it didn’t.
Natural selection contributed greatly. It helped select among the available variants and over billions of years produced homo sapiens. We are no pinnacle of evolution though. Just much more complicated than our earliest ancestors ! Achieved through billions of years of random mutation and non-random natural selection.

Evolution is not just a guess … its an established theory … with plenty of evidence to support it. Fossils, current living organisms, genetics and observed evolution of certain species of moths and most species of bacteria during brief time frames, the results of man-made selection - resulting in many many new species of dogs, cats and horses. Plenty of evidence.

  • Sivakami.

Because that’s an inevitable consequence of natural selection. Perhaps my “Brown Bear example” (originally posted on a music forum - don’t ask) will be of some assistance in understanding how natural selction can bring about an entirely new species:

[i]The primary reason why life on Earth is so successful is its ability to adapt to a wide variety of environments. A species that is “adept” is more likely to survive than one that isn’t. This is known as natural selection: the individuals best suited to the environment in which they find themselves will theoretically survive and pass on their genes to their offspring, the weaker individuals will perish.

For instance, assume that there is a large population of brown bears living in the United States. All of a sudden drought strikes and some of the bears are forced to move up north to frosty Canada in order to find food and water. Once they find themselves in this colder environment, natural selection kicks in. Those with the thicker coats will be better able to keep warm, those with the intelligence to crack open the tops of frozen ponds to find fish will be better able to feed themselves. Those who have neither a thick cover of fur or a great abundance of intelligence will simultaneously freeze and starve.

The bears who have these qualities will be able to pass their unique genetic make up onto their offspring and, over the period of tens of thousands of years, the brown bears who moved up to Canada slowly change in appearence and demeanor. They will have a much thicker coat of fur than they did before, and they will also be much more intelligent. They gradually become a distinct species of bear.

Now remember that some of the brown bears decided not to move up to Canada, but to remain in America and stick out the drought. They have been isolated from the Canadian bears for tens of thousands of years, with no breeding between the two groups. While the Canadian bears have developed a thicker coat and a greater intelligence, the bears who remained in America have stayed virtually the same because they haven’t had to evolve (and this is another basic rule of thumb with evolution: that animals generally don’t evolve unless they have to. For instance, sharks are so perfectly adapted to their environment that they are virtually the same animal now as they were 350 million years ago). So, using this example, we can see that even though a species evolves, it doesn’t mean that the species it evolved from has to die out. Just because the American brown bear evolves into the Canadian bear when a small group of them venture up north, it doesn’t mean that the brown bears who remain in America die out.

This is the same with human evolution. Africa used to be a heavily forested continent, with few of the savanas that exist today. Then the world went through a climatic change and the forests began to dry up, leaving large areas of open grassland.

This was a problem for our primate ancestors. Where we before had eked out a happy existence swinging around in the trees, all of a sudden we were left exposed. There was a lot of competition for food in Africa at that time, and we were well down on the food chain. We weren’t particularly big creatures, nor did we have anything about us physically (like big claws or poisonous fangs) that could allow us to compete with the bigger animals (like the lions and so forth).

All we had when the forests dried up and we were left exposed was the fact that we were relatively intelligent and the fact that we were pack hunters. This allowed us to create communication between individuals so as to co-ordinate attacks on antelope or what have you. The taller individuals would be more likely to see over the tops of the tall grass to see oncoming predators while the smaller individuals would fall victim to these same animals. This was why we began to assume a more upright stance.

As a result of necessity, we became to become taller and more intelligent than our other primate cousins, a direct result of being forced out into the African grasslands.

These qualities also gave us the ability to roam, and Neanderthal man started to spread into Europe and Asia probably some 200,000 years ago and lived out happy lives for many a millenia.

But this is something that a lot of people fail to grasp. When neanderthals expanded into Asia and Europe, there were none of the dangers in these places that there were in the African plains. They didn’t need to evolve any more because they were basically on top of the food chain. There were no real predators more capable than the neanderthals in Europe or Asia, so we were free to kill and eat whatever we wanted. We didn’t need to evolve because, effectively, we were already too well suited to our environment.

However, the Neanderthals who remained in Africa during this time had no such luxury. They were still competing fiercely for scarce food supplies. They had to keep on evolving to stay alive. After 140,000 odd years of evolution, the Neanderthals in Africa had evolved into Homo Erectus…almost indistinct from modern man (homo sapien).

Homo erectus eventually ventured from Africa into Europe and Asia some 60,000 years ago. Of course, the Neanderthals, who hadn’t had to evolve for the past 140,000 years, were still there. There were two distinct species of human being living side by side in Europe and Asia.

Being such highly advanced predators, there wasn’t room for them both. Homo erectus, after having gone through 140,000 years of evolution in Africa, was far more intellegent, strong, mobile and adaptable than the more primitive Neanderthals. Homo erectus drove the Neanderthals to extinction about 40,000 years ago and essentially took over Europe and Asia as the main predator, above all other life on the food chain. But it should be remembered that for at least 20,000 years, there were two different species of human living side by side, which is almost unintelligable today.

Anyway, after all that, my point is the same as the one that Ruby_Slippers said before. We didn’t actually evolve from apes. Humans and all other primates evolved from the same common ancestor, but in reality we are seperated from all other primates by 2 million years of evolution. And as I explained before, just because one species evolves from another, it doesn’t mean that the original species has to die out.

And we’re still evolving even now. In the past 200 years, we’re an average of 5 inches taller than the humans of 1800. Like Carl Sagan said, man is a transitional animal. It would be arrogant to think of ourselves as the pinicle of creation or evolution, we’re still evolving and will continue to do so until we become extinct. [/i]

The last part of that little essay is irrelevant, but I’m sure you can see how the first part is pertinent to our discussion. Specialisation occurs, because if animals find themselves in an environment that differs from the one that they were originally based (either through migration, or more commonly some rapid climate change) then they either have to acquire the attributes necessary to exist in this environment (which is done slowly over several generations) or else they perish. Specialization serves as evidence of the evolutionary position, not as a hinderence to it.

The qualms you have about the evolution of the eye and the acquisition of “useless” traits are based on similar principles, but seeing as I have an exam tomorrow morning, I’ll have to leave them until another time.

So what? I don’t understand how my car works but I don’t go around saying “well i’m not convinced the car works because I don’t understand how it works”. This is what Dawkins calls “the argument from Personal Incredulity”. Which is used to describe people such as yourself who refute a well established scientific theory just because they personally don’t understand it and haven’t bothered to research it. The information is all there, you just need to go and find it. I think it is fair for someone to say “i won’t believe it until i’ve seen the evidence” because we should always be questioning things. However, saying, “I don’t thing evolution is credible because I can’t imagine how cells came into humans” is just ignorance and laziness. The information is there, you just have to go and read it. There is lots of evidence to explain how single celled organisms turned into human beings and ssivakami has highlighted the two main reasons. Time and non-random natural selection. Evolution occurs over billions of years, which our minds cannot really comprehend so we find it amazing to think how far we have come. But given a very long amount of time, the evolutionary process is feasible quod est demostrandum.

Don’t disbelieve something just because you don’t understand it. Otherwise, Dawkins and I will grill you to a char :wink:

Great post, Ben :slight_smile:

  • Sivakami.

ever noticed that people who believe in Creationism look really unevolved? You ever noticed that? Eyes real close together, eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet. “I believe God created me in one day” Yeah, looks liked He rushed it.

bill hicks

you believe the world is 4000 years old? really? ok, i got a question for you. One word question. DINOSAURS. You know, the world is 4000 years old, dinosaurs existed in that time YOU THINK THEY WOULD HAVE MENTIONED IT IN THE BIBLE.
“And oh the disciples walked to Nazareth but the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus with a splinter in his paw. And oh the disciples ran amock. But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the Brontosaurus paw and the big lizard became his friend. And Jesus sent him to Scotland to live in a loch for oh so many years inviting fat American tourists with their fat families and their fat dollar bills. And oh SCOTLAND did PRAISE THE LORD!”

heh okay now that i have had a good laugh at how fast people jumped on me there. i think ill reply =) i think i poorly worded what i said and in hindsite i can see understand how i was blown out of the water there. i do not doubt evolution… i just think there is more to it then simple random mutations. for soem reason i feel inclined to believe that there is something on the part of the organism that brings about changed in the organism that is not totally random.

however this could just be me backtracking to try and seem cool. so i hope yall will have sum faith in my werds =)

There is. Its called natural selection. And its as non-random as they come :slight_smile:

Thats shades of Lamarckianism I see, something which has been proved wrong many times.

  • Sivakami.

louise and ClarkyCat…I can’t stop laughing…

Skull of earliest human relative discovered… which pushes the time [and the explanations] back a bit. Just FYI.

As far as I know, science sustains the evolutionist theory.
But I found this site you might want to take a look at.

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/index.htm

What do you say?

Ben

I studied with a Jehovah Witness and she had a fight with my geography teacher over the creation of continents. She said the continents were divided by the Noah’s Arc flooding (don’t know how to translate this properly). Needless say that the teacher was shocked.

A simple example of evolution is that of wolves who live close to towns, as they have evolved to be less aggressive or scared of humans. There used to be wolves who were aggressive and unafraid of humans but they got all eventually got shot. That’s modern day natural selection.

Also a sample of what evolution can do is the creation of chiuanas and all breeds of dogs from wolves in less than 10,000 years (when we started domesticating wolves).

Now there’s the power of evolution for ya. (Although there was some deliberate breeding by us,but it’s an example of how bloody fast it works).

Oh, H20, afraid to say that the website you referred just misunderstands evolution completely. I’ve also heard the Mount St.Helens objection before, and seen it more than utterly decimated, slaughtered and ridiculed by real scientists. I think it was on the talk Origins website, but could have been elsewhere.

That is simply wrong. It cannot logically be the case given the geographic diversity of human alleles.

Charles Darwin struck the world off guard not just because of his evaluation of how animals evolve, for that was a minor jab from his research, but his knock out blow came from the consequences of his views onto everything else in our lives…from religion to economy and many others.

For instance, prior to Darwin the leading view was that because things obviously had purpose, it must mean that there is conscious design in them. Since we didn’t construct nature, something else must have, something that is greater than nature…but what could be greater than nature. Why God ofcourse. This theory was best explained and held the attention of most people by a philosopher named William Paley (has some very interesting views). Many of you may know him for his WATCH analogy in proving conscious design. Anyway, Darwin came by, suggested and then showed to great certainty that it was not only possible but most likely the case that everything has purpose without there being a God or conscious design, but instead there is what he controversially called Natural Selection. I say controversially because his use of the word ‘Selection’ caused some serious misinterpretations of his view. There is no selecting going on by God, nature, or animals. Scholars believe that if Darwin had the chance, he would have renamed it Natural Preservation, since his view is about the natural preservation of those animals and plants that are best adapted to their environment and circumstances. Strictly speaking, to put his view more precisely, Natural Selection is the preservation of advantageous variation and rejection of disadvantageous variation. I hope it is obvious to readers why this would have a huge impact on religious institutions. One should also put themselves in the mind set of Darwin’s time and the power and influence the church had.

The concise version of how Natural Selection works is as follows:

  • If creatures in a population vary (variation)
  • If there is competition amonst them for resources and reproduction
  • If trait, T…, gives advantage to a group of members
  • If trait, T…, is heritable (heritability)

  • Therefore, there will be an increase of the trait amongst its members
  • Therefore, over a long period of time the group of members of the species with trait, T, will differ greatly from its original population.

The scary thing here is that this can also be viewed as an economic system, or even an economic prescription. I wonder if there is something to this idea of people making things up and not realizing its applicability, another person who had the same thing happen with his view was John Nash (ironically, his was used as an economic system as well). Just implement money into Darwin’s formula above and see what you get…If money between creatures in a population vary, If there is competition for money between creatures, If money gives advantage to a group of members, If money is heritable (it is)

Therefore, there will be an increase of money amongst its members
Therefore, over a long period of time the group of members with the most money will differ greatly from its original population (this can be taken as the divide between the rich and the poor).

I’m curious, what does everyone think about this?

Furthermore, there is something happening in our world that has never happened before, well there are many and varied things, but the individual notion i am referring to is globalization in the context of open borders between all the countries of the world (generally speaking). Cultures, races, and ethnic people intermixing from all corners of the world. What effects can you fortell might happen?

Darwin has something to say about it "We shall best understand the probable course of natural selection by taking the case of a coutnry under-going some physical change…we may conclude, from what we have seen of the intimate and complex manner in which the inhabitants of each country are bound together, that any change in the numerical proportions of some of the inhabitants, independently of the change of climate itself, would most seriously affect many of the others. If the country were open on its borders, new forms would certainly immigrate, and this also would seriously disturb the relations of some of the former inhabitants. Let it be remembered how powerful the influence of a single introduced tree or mammal has been shown to be. But in the case of an island, or of a country partly surrounded by barriers, into which new and better adapted forms could not freely enter, we should then have places in the economy of nature which would assuredly be better filled up, if some of the original inhabitants were in some manner modified; for had the area been open to immigration, these same places would have been seized on by intruders. "(On The Origin of Species By Means of Natural Selection: Chapter IV, Pg. 81, Charles Darwin)

Remember, Darwin said that NS is not teleological, there is no end to which it is striving for. There isn’t any complexity to which it is working for. It’s all random, statistical, and works by chance. This means that those races that reproduce the most are the one’s with the advantage, especially now. We have programs such as welfare, baby bonuses, etc. This means that people can choose to not consider the impacts of having 10 babies because that society will provide for them and take care of them so their babies can grow up to be mature adults. Funny, we have an endangered species list, containing animals that are close to extinction. I think within the next hundred years we will be faced with a endangered race list, containing races that are close to extinction. To give an example, some say that there is a fear of America become predominantly Spanish, because they reproduce so much. The question is, can morality be put in the picture? Tough question. I know someone who is spanish and has 9 other siblings, a mixture of boys and girls. So their parents had ten kids. Can we even ask if this is right or wrong? Or is it outside of morality? Aren’t they just the one’s who have the advantage of natural selection? Aren’t they bettere adapted to their surroundings? Aren’t they just doing what they are naturally predisposed to do? Isn’t giving birth the whole point of life? Shouldn’t they be allowed to have as many kids as they want? Or do we have something more to consider? What might some things and their factors be? What do you all think?

More later…

What’s your take?