Existence Is Pointless

i mean that what i call the “principle of action” is just the fact of the impossibility of stasis, or rather the universal principle that EVERYTHING MOVES.

from this universal fact, combined with the fact that living things DECAY AND DIE, results the principle of survival, that all things move necessarily, and those living things (possessing an organization which can decay and perish) which move better than others in terms of securing their survival (resistance against death) will tend to pass on their form/energy/DNA more (their “instincts” or inner nature from which their behavior derives), and therefore over time all living things will possess this inherent survival instinct.

will to power arises because it facilitates survival. by “will to power” i mean the striving towards a being’s expansion and application of force within its environment, which allows it greater control and efficient/effective use of available resources. this is a survival benefit because life forms with greater “wills to power” (in this context i define here) will survive more because they are more ABLE to act in ways which guarantee survival: ergo, the will to power becomes universal within living entities in the same way that the survival instinct has.

now, we could just define my “principle of action” as Nietzsche FUNDAMENTAL ‘Will to Power’ in the sense of “. . . and nothing besides”; in that case, we must understand the will to power as two separate forces/things: 1) the will to power which is fundamental to all things, which is just the principle that all things which are real MOVE and MUST MOVE, i.e. they never remain still (however, this is not technically a “will” as there is no intention which is “willing”), and 2) the will to power as the specific type of action that living entities take in order to further the expansion of their power-base of control over their environment, to extend their reach of their forces/influence, etc (this IS a will in the strict definition of the concept).

Nietzsche’s application of this second understanding of will to power to the universality-context of the first (my definiton 1 above) seems incorrect. he seems to blend these two together into one Will to Power, but how can a non-living thing or a fundamental force “intend” or “will” something? how can it deliberately STRIVE TO EXPAND itself or its “influence”? sure, fundamental forces act within their means by mandate of the type of force that they are (whatever actions/effects it is that they naturally generate), but this is a natural occurance which follows the laws of nature (electromagnetism, thermodynamics, gravity, weak and strong nuclear forces, quantum forces, etc): each of these has a specific nature, each force acts within a certain context and in a certain defined way. Nietzsche seemed to think that the will to power was behind all these forces, in that this will to power was an intentional striving to achieve maximization of that forces effects/power/control over other nearby forces… i see this as impossible. rather, i conclude that such action as he talks about here IS fundamental to all LIVING entities which can only exist by differentiating from desirable and undesirable stimuli; they exist only by absorbing good energy and avoiding/excreting bad energy. fundamental forces do not do this. only living entities do.

so i see Nietzsche’s fundamental Will to Power (“and nothing besides”) as different from the will to power of living entities. the fundamental Will to Power is really just the fact that stasis or nonmovement is impossible; the will to power of living entities is a force/action/intention/behavioral tendency or instinct which generates from the need to survive that all living entities have. having a strong will to power in this sense furthers survival, and therefore tends to become univeral within living entities. survival instincts themselves becomes universal within living entities because those entities without them tend to die more often, failing to pass along their energy form/DNA/type to future generations.

only the second type of will to power. this second type of will to power (as action/behavior/intention/instinct to expand ones influence/power/control/forces within ones environment) IS subordinated to the survival instinct INITIALLY, because it only arises in living entities which necessarily must make such intentional/differentiating choices/actions in order to avoid disintegration/death. the survival instinct is primary in living entities because the will to power (this second type) is only initially benefitial to living entities in that it furthers their survival itself (or rather, it would not have been initially generated if it had NOT furthered survival). the need/instinct to survive (which evolved and became universal within all life out of necessity) gave rise to this type of will to power because it furthers survival itself.

HOWEVER, once this will to power was generated (due to its ability to further survival), it became a dominant force within life, and often enough expresses itself and manifests in ways that can be detrimental to survival; in this sense, the will to power, once created, became a second primary instinct/drive within all life… sometimes the will to power acts in ways that further survival of that living entity, and sometimes it acts counter to survival. once it exists, it is its own force under its own instinctive power.

the other type of will to power (the “principle of action” as i call it, or the fundamental impossibility of nonmovement) is not a “will” in the sense that the second will to power is a will; it is more of a fundamental law of nature which entails across all entities/things that exist, living or not.

when you see that the will to power as Nietzsche describes it is infact TWO SEPARATE FORCES/THINGS, each one very different from the other, then yes, the will to power can be the principle of action itself (“will to power” is just a word-choice we use to convey meaning of this principle of action, it is not a “will” at all), as well as a force generated by living entities in order to further their survival ability (and thus becomes necessarily universal to all life due to evolution/selection) (but which, once generated, takes on a life of its own and acts according to its own means and drives, sometimes furthering survival, sometimes not).

yes. the principle of action (or the first type of will to power, the “. . . and nothing besides”) is just the recognition of the fact that nothing ever is motionless, nothing does not move. everything which exists has motion, necessarily. those things which we see as motionless are in fact moving within themselves, and the “motionlessness” of them is only apparent, an illusion resultant of the fact that we occupy the same frame of reference. get down through matter-energy into quantum levels, and you see that all fundamental wavefields or quanta of energy (or “strings” if you want to call them that) vibrate at a frequency. everything that exists has a vibrational tone and frequency pattern.

thats all the principle of action is: the realization of the fact that if something exists, it moves necessarily, even if this motion is only an ocillation from one point to another and back again, over and over.

Well said!

existence with a point

pointless is good

-Imp

  1. I don’t see why we must understand it as two different things. That’s only necessary if we subordinate what you call the “second” will to power to the will to survival in the first place.

  2. There are no “things” which are real, and therefore there is no movement: check out WP 635 (to which I’ve already referred in this correspondence).

There are no “things”; there is only force, quanta of force (cf. the “dynamic quanta” mentioned in WP 635 with WP 618-19). Force is willpower.

There are no “laws” in nature: compare BGE 22 with GS 109.

Why?

There is only one kind of energy. Living beings are just very complex complexes of such fundamental forces. They tend to avoid other such complexes, and magnitudes of energy, which are harmful to their health (wholeness). This is not because of any difference between their will to power and the fundamental will to power, but because their will to power is a resultant of a great number of elemental wills to power.

it is a different thing not because i choose to subordinate it; it is subordinated to the survival instinct because the survival instinct is generative (initially) of the living drive to expand influence/power.

im not referring to Nietzsche in this thread, other than acknowledging his concept of will to power and then offering my own interpretation. i dont have WTP with me now, but i can say that claiming there are “no things” and thus “no movement” is patently absurd. at the least, such a statement would need to be defended by some pretty solid reasoning, in order to counteract the tremendous evidence (logical and experiential) to the contrary.

a force is a ‘thing’; when i say “thing” i just mean “is real/exists”. i dont mean physical, extended, specific, matter, or anything like that.

what do you mean “force is willpower”? how can a natural impersonal force like gravity or electromagnetism “will” anything? this seems to just be mixing terms inappropriately.

once again. this is not a theory that is supported or determined by anything Nietzsche said, so merely offering that “Nietzsche said this, which is different than what you say, therefore youre wrong” isnt enough to falsify what im claiming. youll need to construct an argument, either from Nietzsche or not, against what im saying in order to falsify or argue against it. im not really interested at the moment what Nietzsche says about this, because im pretty familiar with how he uses will to power (and it does NOT mean “willpower”…)

because, as i explained, these forces are impersonal and deterministic (but which are nonetheless intervened upon somewhat by quantum forces of indeterminacy)… to say they are “willed” means that there is “something doing the willing”, which is absurd. there is no “thing” that “wills” an object to fall when i drop it. it falls because of the nature of its matter-mass extension/structure and its physical relation/interaction with the matter-mass extension/structure of the earth. the nature of mass in spacetime geometry creates natural conditions such that masses act upon each other with an attractive force… now im not claiming that other theories of gravity may not be true (im just citing the common current understanding), however i AM claiming that gravity is naturalistic, mechanical (except, as i said, is supervened upon somewhat by indeterministic forces) and impersonal; there is nothing “willing” gravity.

the single fundamental force (i agree there can only be one) we can call will to power, if that makes you happy. we can call it the principle of action, or quanta of force, or God, or strings, or string cheese for all it matters. what DOES matter is how we understand this force: it is a force that is indivisible in that it defines itself by virtue of its own becoming (this is via the fact that on this quantized level of reality time and space/distance are nonlocalized and “bleed” into each other) (see my signature also)-- this fundamental force, whatever youd like to call it, composes the basic structure of reality, and its operations determine not only what we call “things” and “matter” and “energy”, but also spacetime and “vaccuum” themselves (it is the source of quantum fields, because it IS those fields, the quanta which compose them).

youre right that “Living beings are just very complex complexes of such fundamental forces”… however, it is still relevant to understand the will to power which is a drive in living beings (an instinct such as the survival instinct) as DIFFERENT from this fundamental “will to power”, in the same way that light or gravity or the survival instinct itself are different from it. everything results from a conglomeration of this fundamental force; however, such larger complexes take on different and unique properties (the natural laws, or “being alive”) depending upon how they are arranged/organized. it makes perfect sense to speak of these properties/forces as different from the fundamental force which gives rise to them via the law of large numbers, just as it makes sense to speak of a car as different from the atoms which compose its structure.

proof that people can be spiritually dead.

One can help you,… that one is God,… may you find him now.

But the “survival instinct” can be understood as a will to power (survival as a form of power, as I said before in this thread).

Well, without anything like that, there is no movement (forces don’t “move”).

Check out BGE 36: we cannot explain anything (but only describe) without projecting the most basic fact(s) of human experience into what we seek to explain.

And I never said it did. Power, not will to power, is willpower; force is the exertion of this willpower.

I question whether you’re really as familiar as you think.

Wrong. Nietzsche addresses this delusion in The Will to Power. To think that if there is will, there must be a willer is to be caught in the web of language/logic. Check out the passage from Twilight in which he says he’s afraid we will not get rid of God as long as we still believe in grammar: if I remember right, it is concerned with logic (probably “Reason” In Philosophy).

And neither is there an object, nor a falling.

Yes: and Nietzsche projected the will to power into this force so as to explain it (instead of only describing it).

Will is impersonal.

They are different forms (expressions) of the same thing. The difference between light, gravity, and the survival instinct on the one hand and the will to power which is a drive in living beings on the other, however, is that the latter is the principle by which the others are explained. As I said in the beginning of this thread, the survival instinct cannot account for growth; indeed, not for any “movement” (change) at all.

The ever illusive “meaning/purpose of life”

It’s not just the existence but everything is pointless (if one seeks a point in the absolute sense).

Silly people would try to deny it and hang on to religion, positive ideas, (day) dream, and so on, seeing the(illusion of) absoluteness in them.