This is my existential conundrum and I’d like to get some peoples thoughts on the matter.
I am essentially an ascetic humanist. I have tried to place value on only those things that bring about knowledge or empathy for the human condition and nothing else. I try to act accordingly and not take part in things because of the joy it might bring me, but because the act itself is inherently valuable to me. I try to dismiss pride, ego, and the value of my personal happiness as best I can. I don’t drink, smoke, do drugs, or take part in physical relationships because I don’t find inherent value in them. I have no problem with others’ actions of this kind or any other as long as they do not interfere directly with anyone else unwantedly. And I myself can even reason that I would find some small inherent value in the experience it self, and likely pragmatic value if the positives of the experience were most accentuated and the negatives diminished. However with physical relationships, it becomes far more complicated. Inherently the experience itself is of value and, pragmatically reasoning, of great value because of the greater understanding of ones desires and introspection that the strong feelings of a relationship might bring about, as well as for “caring deeply about another human being†fitting nicely in the empathy for the human condition category. However, for me I feel this has to be the true reasoning for my actions and that I am not just giving in to biological urges for sex and companionship. But to truly do that would be to diminish much of the value it held. It would be unfair to enter a relationship as an introspection/sociological experiment. I feel that entering a relationship other than for my own happiness would be unfair to the other person baring full understanding and awkward acceptance by who I might be with. It seems I would have to completely give myself up to the cause. I am torn between missing out on one of the strongest experience of human existence and greatest examples of empathy for the human condition (the giving and acceptance of “ “love†â€) and putting my happiness above that of others and abiding by blind urges of evolution and self servitude. I have no misgiving about what a physical relationship ultimately is, however what is left still seems to hold some value even in the rigid frame work I have constructed.
Any particular reason why you don’t value your own happiness?
Tell us about your parents, southie.
Is there any value to knowing about swapping spit? Why isn’t that valuable knowledge? Isn’t that part of the human condition? I mean, isn’t the ol’ in-and-out part of the human condition?
I have tried not to value my own happiness in an attempt to make knowledge and altruism my priorities.
Ha, no my parents never hugged me, but I can assure you that by beliefs are as objective and rational as any existential theory.
And yes they all are, but I was refering to empathy for the human condition in the sense of altruism, not personal experience. The benefits of those actions mean more to me in the general sense of experience to knowledge, particularly because they are such strong experiences.
Interestingly enough, southcrossland, when I read your post and contemplated what it would be like to uphold the same values (that were depicted to me), I found myself feeling happier. Happy at the thought of disregarding the importance of my own happiness.
I’m thinking happiness is one of those things you receive by not grasping for it, but by just letting go of your selfishness.
Could you list some things you consider to have inherent value?
I do think there is a vanity in doing something for the sake of its pleasurable effect. We should do things because they are right to do, because of higher reason. We would still receive pleasure for the acts, I would say, even greater pleasure, because the act is more sincere… more meaningful.
Yea, it relates somewhat to eastern philosophies of acheiving happiness through removing desire rather than trying to satisfy it. But that doesn’t really work if you actively try to avoid happiness because it is counter to your goal and recursive in nature. I really just want things to be for the right reasons and self servitude doesn’t seem to be one of them. And though utlimately, on one level or another, it always comes back to self servitude, I feel I have to at least try to avoid it.
I find inherent value in any search for knowledge (books, music, this forum) and in any humanitarian effort (simple courtesies, charity, activism)
Could it be just as selfish to not share yourself with someone becuase of some philosophical ideal? Other people long and need companionship as well and you could provide it. Even if the relationship fails horribly or you end up hurting the person, they still will learn from it. There may be very nice girl/guy out their who wants to be with you, and regardless of the end results they won’t wonder how life would have been without you. You are just as much as an experiment for them, as they are for you. They may not recognize it in this way, but that is how it is.
Starting from babies, we act in a narcissistic nature. As we get older, we are taught to say please and thank you in a gradual attempt to leave selflishness behind. One of these acts is the practice of giving gifts at birthday parties when we are children to erode egocentric tendencies (though this may not be apparent to parent and child).
When we get old enough to start dating, (hopefully abstaining from sexual practices as admonished by our parents) our focus of love shifts from the primary love from our family in which we share responsibilities in love. It becomes apparent in an untenable way we recognize that giving of ourselves unselfishly to the boy or girl we have grown to love outside our immediate family unit, is that we derive pleasure making our counterpart happy. We haven’t then completely left our narcissistic shell until we discover the pleasure of our progeny.
I agree as well. I think that we are, at some level, psychological egoists. I also think that there is no free will. But nothing can be done about either of these except attempt to act against them, despite the conditions being completely inherent and invariable.
All desires are egocentric. Yet some desires such as good will towards other, the desire to awaken to learn, the desire to express human passion such as art are beneficial. Bad desires are for addictions, greed, misguided ambitions, and other wants.
One needs to cultivate them ; become a conousier of desires and pleasures.
Narcissism is not the love of self, but the love of an image. You become narcissistic if you try to uphold selfdefeating values, because the only rewards you are to expect is in your improving image, or what others might think.
Ego, I’m not sure about the distinction between self and image. Nor that trying to fulfill an image is necessarily narcissistic. What if that image is of one who avoids narcisism itself, to avoid recognition of others and self praise. What if the image is what you have decided to be selfless and objective. If it is still narcissistic, how would one avoid it?
Also how would you define selfdefeating, it seems that assured failure in many respects would be the opposite of narcissisism. And if one believes that all is self defeating, than again it seems to be unavoidable.
Perceptions of our self image often begins with introspection. We look inside to what value our lives imbues in all things. Giving of one’s self removes us from our ego. For as we give, usually we recieve in kind. If we do not receive in kind, the fulfillment gathered from other incidents overshadows it.
Selfdeafting to me means viewing the negative aspects of happenings in and around us. What we need to remember is failures cultivate success in the future. To strive and learn form our mistakes. These procedures will negate narcissism. Once the focus of a defeatist gets shifted to perseverance, perceptions will shift too.
Well, I didn’t invent the distinction. Narcissism is by definition the love of your image, and it was being used in the wrong way here. People with a nacissistic personality dissorder actually care very little for their selves, it’s all about the image (a distinction has to be made with the more normal narcissistic aspect of every (?) personality, this is not the dissorder). But even if you want to cultivate an image that avoids praise and recognition, this is still chasing an image and therfor narcissitic. And babies obviously can’t be narcissistic.
What are self-defeating values, well, that’s the real question isn’t it? I can’t give you a clearcut answer here because it depends, but I think its save to say from your opening post that you try to uphold a number of selfdefeating values. I think this is what faust is trying to say, read all of Nietzsche and report back to him.