Explorations on occult reality - 1 - On the possibility of a mechanistic occult world

Reality as a whole - that is the seen AND the unseen - might be regimented by complex patterns and mechanisms. The whole reality might as well be “materialistic”, it’s just that when we put ourselves in the position of defending some occult possibilites we often make the mistake of confounding the materiality that is perceivable, assessable (with our human senses, methodologies and instruments) with an absence of the materiality in the unseen.

Take for example chemists doing experiments. When mixing different compounds, a flame, an explosion or an unexpected reaction might emerge in a way that is not going along with our intuition of the matter and the material world. Yet unexpected reactions are regimented by clear mechanisms when we observe and deduce beyond our normal sensory limitations. This appears however magical to our eyes. When Nicholas Tesla was doing his public demonstrations with alternative current, being capable to make appear lightnings seemingly out of the blue with is coil and other instruments, lots of people thought he was a sorcerer, and this is a reaction to the previously unseen that we recurrently see in humans. Which makes you think about a lot of the traditions about the unseen, the occult and the spiritual. That some valuable discoveries and experiences of unseen forces at play might have been interpreted in a loose, unmaterial and magical way. That some realities, some real mechanisms might have been simplified or have taken a form more understandable to the people experiencing or observing them while not being totally, directly or precisely understood at the time. Chakras for example, are theorized to be aligned with major secretory glands and organs in the human body, meaning that an intervention there or there on the body – either physical or psychological through placebo and suggestion – could have indeed have a measurable, or let’s rather say witnessable impact. Which demonstrate that the spiritual practice might have help maintain a knowledge that had functional repercussions.

Also, lot of rituals are quite rigorous, complex and have lot of regularity in their elements and practice - sometimes in a way that seems to approach a scientific experiment or operation and all the control of variables that needs to take place in this kind of settings - and although the reasons of why we would see an impact seemingly emerging from the ritual — whether it is because of a placebo or some spiritual mechanism — it is interesting because it suggests in both cases that an underlying mechanism is happening nonetheless. That’s why i tend to think that it is reasonable to believe that the unseen might be mechanistic, although sometimes elusive for our senses and instruments.

Because of the elusive nature of the unseen, whether what we find there is close to what we expect or goes way beyond, humans will be inevitably clumsy in their pursuit of this knowledge by the nature of their mental processes, as they are largely already when it comes to the seen world.

What do you guys think?

P.S.: By the way, I began this series on the exploration of occult reality because I was weary of the unserious and unrigourous claims about it that are rempent both from spiritual people and from the scientific community. I think we can give ourselves more serious tools as a ground to think about the occult, the spiritual, the unseen, and so on. Pure science is a gem of philosophy and can produce lots of highly reliable and concrete results. Scientific culture however is biased and have tendancies to avoid “weird” subjects, but nonetheless not confirmed impossible subjects of study or at least of serious philosophical inquiry. We do not know for sure what lies beyond and whether or not it has real implications for us - and this remains true whether we are secular or religious. This series is an attempt to see with you guys what serious possibilities lies in this beyond.

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Does this mean that ‘Reality’, as a whole, might not be regimented by complex patterns and mechanisms at all as well?

But the human senses are also perceivable and assessable, literally by and through the materialistic nerves and nerve endings on and within the human body.

Although, as you pointed out, human beings will inevitably be clumsy in their pursuit of ‘this knowledge’, as human beings have proved hitherto, human beings will also inevitably come to know ‘this knowledge’, in their pursuit of ‘this’ knowledge’, which, by the way, has already come to be known, and, coincidentally by the very same invisible and unseen thing where ‘all knowledge’ is first found, captured, and stored.

The pursuit of what you call ‘the unseen’, and what you say is ‘naturally elusive’, was actually being pursued by the ‘very same thing’.

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The seen reality veryseemingly is regimented by mechanisms, but I found interesting that a lot of people (and I include myself) have a tendency to represent themselves the possible spiritual/unseen/occult world as something chaotic, vague and simplistic while there is no reason for it not to be complex and somewhat “material” and mechanistic in a way more or less analoguous to what we already “know”.

Yes veryseemingly that is, phenomenology however is sufficient I believe in showing the limits of our perception. It is particularly interesting however how we can bend and significantly change the phenomenological experience by altering brain regions, as studies on controlled or localised brain damage shows us. We can induce on command out-of-body experiences with transcranial magnetic stimulation. We can also induce in someone the fear of being chased or persecuted by entities - people often mention demons, secret agents, spirits, etc. - by stimulating in the same way some specific brain regions. Although those in themselves doesn’t cancel the possible “spiritual” reality of certain experiences which are commonly reported by people (astral projection and so on), it shows first of all that we can be easily be at the mercy of the influences on physiological processes and that we ought to be careful when interpreting seemingly spiritual experiences. Additionnally, it shows again a mechanistic tendancy from which the occult and “spiritual” world could possibly simply be a more or less smooth continuation of. Djinns in the muslim folklore for exemple are represented as some sort of hyperdimensional beings with the intellectual level and impulsivity approaching those of animals, who live for really long and who can sometimes interact with us in the seen, physical world and even influence our behaviors or thoughts. Hypothetically speaking it is interesting as a thought experiment to think how hyperdimensional beings of some kind could be influencing brain processes. It remains highly hypothetical of course.

Maybe this will be clearer for you to understand my point. This is quoted from Confucius’s Analects:
"Zilu asked how to serve the ghosts and spirits.
The Master said: “You are not yet able to serve people—how could you be able to serve ghosts and spirits?”
Zilu said: “May I venture to ask about death?"
The Master said: *“You do not yet understand life—how could you possibly understand death?””

Why do you say “has already come to be known […] coincidentally by the very same invisible and unseen thing where all knowledge is first found, captured and stored”? Do you refer to a religious text or spiritual doctrine ? Or do you refer to psychological/neurophysiological processes?

@Pyronax

Unable to comprehend anything beyond materialism is a failure and feature of our very limited mental consciousness. It causes us to be stuck in materiality even though there are things in this existence that materialism itself cannot entirely account for.

:clown_face:

@MrAuthoritarian

Yes, absolute skepticism can partly help in discovering that logically one can’t be absolutely sure that the form of the reality we experience is really the one corresponding or even approximating the absolute reality (as perception studies and brain studies veryseemingly suggest). On an epistemological level, epistemic solipcism is the absolute safest. Although quite extreme, I believe we can build a lot of good reasoning from that.

I observed however that some people (as well as my younger self back in the day) also seem to shy away from “materialist”, deterministic explanations or possibilities because of somewhat of an emotionnal repulsion to the rigor it implies. The maths, the methodology, the complexity can appear austere to the mind and naturally repulse more than one. It is in fact very common I believe. As there can be a bias against “beyond materialism” possibilities, there is also one against materialistic possibilities. I think we ought to contemplate every possibilities.

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@Pyronax

It’s true that much of the world we perceive is through the cortex of our own mental consciousness. There’s certainly a reality outside of our mental consciousness as well, the answer to all of existence is somewhere in between both.

:clown_face:

What do you mean by ‘complex’ here, exactly?

The spiritual/unseen/occult world, which, really, there is absolutely nothing hard nor complex to understand about it may well be ‘material’ and is mechanistic in a way that just about all people are yet to learn, understand, and ‘know’.

The reason why you people - the spiritual/unseen/occult - tend to represent ‘that world’ as being ‘chaotic’ is just because you do not ‘know’ and understand it exactly, and fully, yet.

The actual limits of your human being perception are shown by what you have come to know, or believe you know, which comes from and through the five senses and the nerves that carry information from the body to the brain. The only real thing that limits your perceptions are the Past Experiences of each body, which each individual and one of you is within.

Again, what each body has experienced previously has an influence on all of this.

How, exactly, have you personally interpreted the word ‘spiritual’ here to mean, or to be referring to, exactly?

Older human beings can and do believe all sorts of things, even after they have been informed and shown how some of what they believe to be true could not even be theoretically possible, let alone physically possible and actual.

For example, some people believe/d the earth is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, and/or the Universe began from either a God or a big bang.

These beliefs did not arise, remain, and are held onto because of ‘the brain’, itself, but from how the Mind and the brain work, exactly.

Brain processes work and worked in ‘the way’ they do way before so-called "hyperdimensional beings’ ever became ‘a concept’. What is being called “hyperdimensional beings” here, by the way, influences behaviour and misbehaviour and not ‘brain processes’ at all.

Could it be possible that ‘I’ understood ‘your point’ already, and actually understand more and anew?

Asking how to serve the ghosts and spirits, IS asking ‘you’ how to serve ‘you’?

‘you’, people, are literally the ‘ghosts and spirits’ of which you talk about and speak of.

For your information, no thing and no one ‘dies’ anyway. There is no ‘actual death’ in this One and only eternal Life and Universe. There is just the continual evolving of shape and form in creation.

Because;

It has already come to be known, where all knowledge is - in the invisible and unseen ‘thoughts’ and ‘thinking’.

No.

Yes, to psychological processes, since all of them happen and occur within the invisible thoughts and emotions within the human body.

The ‘personality’, ‘person’, or 'soul ', if one likes, all comes from or resides within the invisible thoughts and emotions within all individual human bodies. ‘you’, people, are those sometimes referred to “ghosts” and/or “spirits” (small ‘s’).

‘We’ do not yet know this with absolute certainty. But, as far as ‘we’ know, in the days when this is being written, some of the invisible and unseen (to the visible human eye) may or may well not be materialistic at all.

'We, again, will just have to wait to find out, and ‘see’.

But, one actually can be absolutely sure, here.

So-called brain studies, by the way, have been leading human beings for decades ‘now’ astray.

Just about all people, still, have not yet recognised what is really far better and far more rewarding and satisfying to study instead.

Considering people 2,000 years ago had reasoned some things out far more logically than what is attempted ‘today’, when this is being written, believing people can build a lot of ‘good reasoning’ from something ‘today’, could be considered a lot of wishful thinking.

The Fact of HOW ALL matter interacts with itself shows and proves that the ‘pre-determined’ future has to and therefore will come to be.

Also, the Fact that human beings were created into being, (like everything else was, besides the Universe, of course, including everything human beings “themselves” created), and that human beings desire to continual discover and create more, as long as they do not wipe “themselves” out because of their LEARNED greedy and selfish ways, (which they cannot and do not), then the Truly ‘desired world’, which exists, again, in the invisible and unseen world, within human beings, and which was ALWAYS predetermined to happen, has to come to be ‘determination’, itself.

‘Free will’ exists in the ‘predetermined’ world, and because of the fundamental nature of the Universe and HOW the One and only eternal and infinite Universe actually works, there is really only One possibility to come. WHEN it arrives, however, depends on adult human beings and WHEN they decide to accept and take full responsibility.

The so-called ‘reality’ within ‘human consciousness’ never ‘has to be’ True nor Right nor even coincide with the One and only True Reality. However, there is ‘a way’ to KNOW, for sure, if one’s own perception is aligned, exactly, with ‘Reality’, Itself.

And, as always in regard to anything I say and claim here, if anyone would like to have a Truly Open and Honest discussion, then let ‘us’ begin.

@MrAuthoritarian @anew1

I made an updated version of the post here. Might answer some of your questions. Thanks for your replies!

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@Pyronax

I was wondering about that.

:clown_face:

Claiming that there is an ‘occult reality’ implies that you have already chosen to accept and believe that there is already some ‘real occult’, before you even begin any series on ‘the exploration’.

Maybe you are beginning this series as ‘an explanation’ of what you have already accepted as true.

Maybe because you didn’t get the definition I was implying here (but made clearer in the update) that by “occult” I meant to employ its core meaning, that is what is hidden or unreachable to the senses, whether it’s secular or spiritual in nature. So in this sense I refer to something that does indeed exist as part of the global reality which englobes both seen and unseen.

I have explained that what encompasses the seen and the unseen is ‘the visible physical world’, which is the visibly seen ‘matter’ within the Universe, and, the ‘invisible world’, which is the invisible ‘thoughts and emotions’ within the Universe.

The word ‘soul’ relates to the ‘person/ality’, which are the unable to be seen ‘thoughts and emotions’, within human bodies.

The word ‘Spirit’ relates to the ‘Knowing’, which is also not able to be seen Mind.
Now, although these things are completely invisible, to the visible eyes, they are certainly not hidden nor unreachable to the Mind’s Eye, which although is also invisible to human eyes, there is nothing that can be hidden nor unreachable to It.

Then, if anyone wants to get Right down to the very specific definitions of all of these, which leads to the unification of ALL things in a Truly comprehensible and fully explained irrefutable way, then let ‘us’ begin. Until then, I again will wait.