Facts and Values

The Fact/Value Distinction and Similarity-

A fact is a state, it is what happens when a once dialectic relationship of opposite possibilities becomes one final state.

By the law of identity, a fact cannot be a fact and not a fact at one time. What do I consider facts?

The two basic approaches are Empiricism and Rationalism. There are variations of each but the major points are only important here. I think that eventually whether one wanted to use the term ‘truth,’ or ‘fact,’ to represent what I am defining is of minor significance. Yet I don’t want to get caught in ontological traps while trying to define a ‘state’ of being and the process of ‘becoming’ at the same time. If I use the law of identity as a method for establishing at least one ‘a priori’ concept, then let it be the truth that something cannot be and not be at the same time…whatever that ‘being’ might be. So give me that much.

So the Empiricists claim that truths exist before there is any awareness of such truths by any intelligent being. This is the quick way of saying the mind is a total product of the being it is aware of, and therefore it does not advance anything that wasn’t already existing. There would be no internal ‘rules’ that were imposed on concepts so that they made sense, such as the synthetic appropriation of analytic Kantian truths. Knowledge would be a contingent effect of an existing cause, or object, or material universe, whatever. In shorter words, ‘mind’ was not ontologically distinct from being.

Then the Rationalists intervene. Descartes asks, how can you be so sure if all you are aware of is your impressions of the world, not dissimiliar to your dream world, if all you know is that you ‘think’ you see a pool of water, and your eyes decieve you… there is not one there? The only indubitable truth, therefore, was that one could doubt what one saw, and not the reality of what was seen. In shorter words, this would imply that because the empirical world could appear as a false experience, ‘truth’ had to be created and applied by the mind. ‘Sense’ was made out of the raw data by the faculty of reason, and this reason was from without the world. A dualism that considers mind to be distinct from the body and/or the world, and given an ontological status of its own.

Both are correct and incomplete. But what is misconstrued as ‘mind’ in this false dilemma of ‘either mind or body’ is the phenomena of consciousness, and the failure resides in an inappropriate examination of counscious experience. What the Rationalists attempted to qualify as an independent ontological existent could not have being without its object, that is, there could be no ‘mind’ without an object to be ‘mindful’ about, so to speak. Therefore the world was not a ‘mental contingency,’ it was very much a definitive existing being. But conscious experience is always OF something, it is nothing itself if not the revelation of some fact. So to ask for a special status of being for consciousness is not asking for another metaphysical realm like a ‘spirit’ or an ‘agent.’ It is simply a nothingness incarnate. Better yet, without consciousness there would be only undifferentiated being without any facts, since there would be no need to identify a possible state as existing and another as not. There would be no such conception of ‘not-A’ without a conscious negation of some being.

In either case I can move on. What I consider a ‘fact’ is nothing more than an affirmation of a state of being and the denial of its nonbeing. A fact can be an empirical objective truth as in a physical body, or it can be a psychological concept as in a thought, a word, an emotion, etc. Knowledge is simply a presence to being. A fact is what is considered to be the case about what is believed to be the state of some being. Good enough.

Starting with this in mind, rationalization proceeds by stacking previously established facts to reach the current conclusion for the dialectic at hand, one possible state is the outcome and the other is not, and in such an experience that this conclusion is acknowledgable determines it as a fact. This is a two way street. Facts cannot exist without being known, and knowledge cannot exist without facts. A fact must be known to exist, it must be experienced. To ask if a fact can exist and not be ackowledged is to ask only if a state can be possible and not necessarily a fact/state, such as: “the tree does make a sound when it falls unheard in the forest, and that is a fact,” is an assimilation of previous dialectic relationships, and only an acknowledgement of the fact that it would be a possible fact/state, not an actual experience of a fact/state. The probability that the tree makes a sound even if it isn’t heard is irrelevent. There are no facts, ‘probably,’ that is obvious. They are or they are not. Well, if it were possible for a tree to make a sound if it wasn’t heard, wouldn’t it also, then, be possible that a fact can exist without being acknowledged? Looks like it. But ‘possible’ and ‘fact’ are two different things. It may be possible for there to be a fact, and a fact that there are possibilites, but the two cannot exist simultaneously as a state, or, as the case. The conclusion to the outcome of the statement “trees make sounds in the forest when they are not heard” cannot be both a fact and ‘maybe’ a fact.

A fact is the outcome of an indeterminancy between the states of opposing possibilities which proceeds as the relationship of which one is conscious of(acknowledging) by the very fact that it exists to be known as a fact. The dialectic is that of ‘true/is’ and ‘false/is not,’ and the conclusion is the fact about the end state of the relationship as either one or the other of the dialectic.

The dialectic relationship proceeds in the moment when one decides how to answer a question such as: does one plus one equal two. The fact at this moment is a synthesis, that is, the conclusion at the present point is the possibility of each thesis simultaneously, in as far as before the decision is made about the answer the question exists to be asked because it is either true or false, and the present fact is that it remains unknown until it is answered, both outcomes equally possible as they are both undetermined as the answer to the question. One enters this process only knowing that it is a fact that the outcome of the relationship will have to be one or the other, as both possibilities only exist as one approaches one’s answer, eventually the dialectic relationship will end at one state and become a fact. Here, there are only two basic outcomes, yes or true, no or false, obviously. But in the process of becomming conscious of the question there is a moment when there are no facts about the final state of the outcome. I used the math example only as a demonstration of a true/false relationship, not as if ‘two’ were the only logical conclusion, and obvious.

A fact, then, is the final state of a process of indicating what is the case as it is experienced as acknowledgeable, and it begets itself. There can be no facts without there also being the acknowledgement of the preceeding possibilites as the undetermined state of a dialectic relationship before there is a fact/state end, and the indication results from a set of previous dialectic relationships which have cancelled into final states allowing for there to be a possible future facts/state as the finality of the present one.

Fact deciphering works backwards. It is not a future fact/state that provides for reason the dialectic process of determining facts in experiences. Facts are not true because in the case that there be an event where one possibility is the outcome and the other is not, that this is given and is a uselful conclusion. Facts are states because they have been experienced as a conclusion to antithetical relationship between two possible outcomes: true or false, and have been rendered through the process of recalling previous fact/states in deciding the outcome of the present. Remember, the possibility of a tree making a sound when it isn’t heard is indeed a fact, but it is oxymoronic to say that it is merely a fact that it is still only possible.


A value is not a state, but it can be a fact that there is value. Evaluation works forward. It would be absurd to ask: “Is your use of the handy valuable tool true or false,” or “Is your dedication to your family the case or not the case,” before these events were over. A value is an adjective method by which we commit useful acts that achieve results for desired ends, such as :there is much value in the riding lawn mower, it cuts time in half" is stating that the object holds value because of its use. The object itself is merely a fact, a lawn mower, that is, you no longer wonder if it is a pink elephant. The final outcome in that decision is “the lawn mower is the fact/state.” But how can the viability of the mower be a fact? How can its use be a fact like in “in any kind of yard, this mower is the best,” if some yards have high brush which cannot be cut with the mower, while in others the yard is so small, you couldn’t turn the damn thing around? Facts involve determined possibilites: true events and false events. You might say that this is no argument against it. That the value of the mower in yard A is a fact, but in yard B it is not, should be obvious. I agree.

It is in the misrepresentation of ‘use’ that seemingly bans value from being categorized with facts. Clearly it can be a fact that things can be valuable. But you must look closer to see how it is valuable that there are facts. Values cannot emerge without facts, there must be these states in order for there to be desirable outcomes. Everything originates from the dialectic relationship.

Perhaps the argument then turns to the question: “What values are neccesary facts under all conditions.” We had admitted that there can be different conditions where the riding mower wouldn’t be useful, and agreed that because it is a fact that the mower is valuable sometimes, we won’t classify it in the same category of facts as we would the chance that the tree make a sound without being heard. This kind of fact, remember, cannot be both a maybe and a fact at the same time. It either will or will not, in any conditions.

Well, what if we add some rain and make the forest wet so that it will damper the sound? No, then that’s a different forest altogether. But wait a minute. We thought that facts were necessary in any conditions. They are, but I never said that they would be the same facts, only that the method of creating facts is uniform each and every time. I don’t see much difference in the method of employing value to things and activities. Ends, means, and desires are deciphered dialectically as well.

I want to add that there is quite a bit more that can be said about this issue, as everyone knows. I only felt that this basic idea was enough to cover the important aspects of the matter and seal a gap between the two opposing concepts. Any additions are welcome.

Well, I go to grab the print-out of this thread on my way to work last night [ 'was gonna read it on my break(s) ] and the right side is cut off. Does this site not have a “print topic” option which puts it in printable format (not that I can’t copy/paste it into a wordpad doc, which I just did…)?

edit

I will have a few questions upon my return (unless they are answered in this thread already) on whether or not the identity/non-contradiction thing can really be challenged in any useful way, and on where phenomenology fits into or departs from Empiricism (obviously I am just beginning to familiarize myself w/ such things and am needing clarification).

Nevermind the questions :lol:

Thanks for posting this, De’trop, I am in your debt. You helped me to organize my thoughts in a more efficient way.

I think I am pretty much in agreement, but for the sake of argument I will say that I disagree that I disagree, hehe.

But, before I officially agree, let’s see if I’m following you.

The method of factuation (is that a word? wull it is now…) (we arrive at a fact when a true/false question is answered by the experience of its truth or falsity) is the same in any conditions … different conditions will bring us to different facts. Likewise, valuation is the same in any conditions … different conditions will bring us to different values… when we ask a good/bad (to put it simply) question and it is answered by the experience of its good value or bad value.

Facts and values are conceived per mind – they are not “out there” – what is “out there” (and “in there”, as we are not separate from ‘undifferentiated being’) is something of which to “make sense”. The scientific method can test the applicability of facts, whereas values are the meaning/value we assign facts, and ultimately influence their applications.

Factuators/evaluators are making sense of (as-yet undifferentiated) being that does not depend on a mind for its existence, and on which the mind is dependent for its existence – and are making interpretations and assigning meaning to this being according to their genetics and conditioning. They affirm being, simultaneously affirming its meaning/usefulness/positive value/negative value.

Just as their values would not be possible without facts, their values effect what true/false questions will enter consciousness and what will be accepted as evidence toward a conclusion.

We can say “In these conditions, this value will be assigned to this fact.” We cannot test the accuracy of a valuation like we can test the accuracy of a factuation – we can only explain the fact of how the valuation came to be.

Here’s a question on the value side of irrelevant possible valuations. If a video [ horror flick, porno, comedy, romantic tragedy, terror group’s decapitation of a hostage ] is shown in an empty, windowless, sound-proof room (no one can hear or see it), will it still be scary, stimulating, funny, sad, evil?

If I am off, please straighten me out…

…and thanks again. :0)

Basically I’m not interested in a fact such as ‘I see a blue ball,’ but rather what it is to see a blue ball. How I came to the conclusion that there was a ball and that I could see it.

I’m not interested in the fact that I just saw A cause B. I’m looking at what it is to see something cause something, see? I’m not concerned with whether or not the object in question is ‘real.’ I’m examining the process of ‘questiong.’

So I’m seeing that although on a suface level, philosophy had always separated ‘facts’ and ‘values,’ the actual methodology of creating them is the same. There is no difference between the reason for liking chocolate ice cream and the reason ‘one plus one equals two.’

Conventionally, these two subjects have been separated and treated differently. ‘Tastes’ would fall somewhere under ‘personal subjective opinions’ while ‘mathematical truths’ would fall somewhere under ‘universal intersubjective objective truths.’ This is all extraneous language confusing the matter. It is occupied with searching for the results of experience rather than the method in which experience is possible.

An argument might be: “I can’t see or touch my ‘honor to my wife,’ though I feel it inside. Those two chairs over there, on the other hand, are quite obviously two chairs. This, I can touch and see. Therefore, I think that what I feel can be considered an evaluation, and what I can experience shall be considered an objective fact.”

No. There is absolutely no difference between the solid corporeal and conceptual experience of the chairs and the experience of creating and holding a value. If you are looking for results instead of causes you won’t see it. Being conscious of any knowledge what so ever results from the same dynamic.

The secret is this. Time. Do you know why people like to call mathematical truths objective? Because most likely ‘two chairs over there’ will remain throughout the duration of their life. But trying to convince someone that just because making a moral commitment such as ‘honoring thy wife,’ (and whatever that might entail) is certainly an unfinished movement into a future end, of a different stuff, that doesn’t mean that those chairs over there are any more certainly finished and ended than the goal to ‘be honorable.’ We cannot concern ourselves with effects here, only with the causes.

Not ‘consciousness of something,’ but what it means to be conscious of something.

The process is the same for any kind of ‘fact establishment.’ The phenomenon, ‘human knowledge,’ exists because of the mechanics, not because it has proven itself ‘real’ or even the world it is aware of as ‘real.’ There is no longer a struggle between essential and existential truths in human knowledge if you combine both the mind and the world into one final essence. Thats what I’m a tryn’ ta do, here.

We could argue all day that a truth such as ‘one plus one equals two’ is quite a different kind of truth than the fact that John likes chocolate ice cream. Or we could argue that they are the same objective kinds of truth if we admit that even supposed ‘a priori’ mathematical truths such as ‘one plus one equals two’ are subjective truths to begin with. Either the one comes down or the other is elevated to that ranking. There is no longer a difference between ‘subjective’ and ‘objective’ here, where I am looking at the methodology of establishing ‘facts,’ the activity is the same.

Look, I know my entire post was ultimately saying the same thing over and over again, but from each possible angle, I had hoped. Really this is just a new attempt at a mutant Cartesian phenomenology. Inspired by Husserl, on those rainy nights.

“Here’s a question on the value side of irrelevant possible valuations. If a video [ horror flick, porno, comedy, romantic tragedy, terror group’s decapitation of a hostage ] is shown in an empty, windowless, sound-proof room (no one can hear or see it), will it still be scary, stimulating, funny, sad, evil?”

Exxxxxcellent question.

You go first.

“If I am off, please straighten me out…”.

No, no, I shouldn’t be too hard to follow. But I must digress.

“Don’t follow leaders and watch your parking meters”- Dylan

Can I play too?

 The first point that comes to mind here, is that a movie's 'being scary' can be taken too different ways.  In the first sense, 'being scary' is an action. Perhaps another way to say it would be 'evoking fear'. I think it's obvious that if the film has no observers, it's not evoking any fear.  The second way to take 'being scary' is to say that the movie has a certain property- in this case a value given to it by people. 
 So does an unobserved movie have the property 'scary'? It seems to me that to answer this question, one must first ask in what sense 'scary' was a property of the movie in the first place.  Clearly being scary is tied up in the emotional response of viewers. I would say a scary movie is a movie that [i]has the power and tendency [/i] to evoke fear from viewers. If that's acceptable, then what follows is that a movie that isn't currently being watched by anybody still possesses that power- this fact exists either because the movie has been viewed before, or else because it shares certain qualities with other movies that are scary.  So I would conclude that a horror movie that isn't being watched by anyone is still scary. 
  The simplified point here is that a movie can be understood to have the value 'scary' due to it's [i]capability[/i] to evoke fear, and not due to whether or not it happens to be evoking fear at any particular point in time.  How's that?

EDIT: Do you concieve a difference if we apply the question to a movie playing in an empty room, vs. a movie sitting on a shelf at a rental store, not being played at all? My answer above would be the same in either situation, so now I’m wondering why you phrased the question just as you did!

Those previous dialectic relationships – what do they trace back to? My answer is that the brain (which handles incoming information of which we are not ‘attentive’ in a certain way-- you call it mechanics – regardless of our ‘will’, which is just one form of mechanized “handling”) is impressionable whether or not we are conscious of the impressions, and that these impressions can influence our experience of mind (our very attitudes, although we don’t know why until we become conscious of the impressions) even though they have not been consciously “factuated/evaluated” (although such a process can occur at a later time, when we become conscious of former impressions… an experience which is evidence for what I’m suggesting)… which is why I disagree with Sartre that “I am separated from my past by nothingness.” I am a product of my brain and every behavior/attitudes-effecting impression made on my brain up to now. I know that things can be impressed upon my brain without my being conscious of them all at the same time, because I can access certain memories at will, and that is impossible unless they are there in my brain waiting for me to recall it – what else is in there, waiting to be acknowledged, and what effect has it had on my attitudes/behavior that I don’t know about/remember?

Regarding your last post,

The chair/goal thing and math/taste thing are good examples. Things are always changing, and chairs/goals/maths/tastes (as we experience them according to the mechanics of experience) are part of, inseparable from, effected by and effecting, those things always changing – including experience and the mechanics of experience.

I agree. I go through the experience of tasting icecream without doubting the mechanism of tasting or the reality of the icecream. Whether it’s real or not, it’s an enjoyable experience none the less. Oh no, the Matrix has me… hehe.

My video question was a value version of your tree (making a sound in the forest when no one is around to hear it) question. Facts/values are dependent on experience, possible facts/values are irrelevant, as they are not “out there” but established in experience. Take humans out of the universe and you are left with undifferentiated being – well… humans never ‘actually differentiate’ – to differentiate adds/changes nothing… but anyway…

As for “following”, I meant understanding, of course… and I do not consider learning from someone or expressing gratitude for that learning experience to be ‘following a leader’, so no worries. You know by now that I have no difficulty expressing disagreement.

Uccisore, I phrased my question as I did because of the ‘experience’ part of it. We can put both forms (tree, and video) of the question as follows: If something happens or exists when < no one > is around, does it create an experience or ‘phenomenon of consciousness’?

I think the answer must be 'no': an experience is a property of the observer, not the observed. However, I don't think it necessarily follows from this that the universe would be undifferentiated being without human minds. For even though experiences are in minds, and experiences are how we differentiate, "the potential to cause experience X" is a property that things have in themselves.  Again with the movie example- a movie is only scaring somebody if there's a witness being scared, but it can have the property 'being scary' without a witness, if the film is such that it [i]would[/i] scare witnesses if there were any. 
 Certainly, there are celestial bodies in the universe that nobody has ever observed. Certainly some of these bodies will or would evoke emotional response from human observers- fear, appreciation of beauty, and so on.  That potential for emotional reaction is a property [i]about[/i] the celestial body- which is not to say that the value is in the celestial body, but that there are facts about the celestial body that will bring about those value judgements once those facts are observed. This makes the case, to my mind, for distinction (as a quality, not an act of course) without mind. 
As always, just tell me to shut up and go away if I'm hopelessly missing the point!

Well said. That is a good demonstration of what I am after. The property ‘scary’ that is given to the ‘movie’ is essentially no different than the property ‘movie’ which is given to the event, from the point of discerning the facts about it.

I’m trying to get rid of each extreme solution to this problem by eliminating both the claim that reality is objective, that is, any experience is possible for everyone…and its opposite; that reality is a subjective interpretation of a reality that could not possibly be experienced by any one else save the individual. To say that a movie has the potential to be scary, then in the case that it wasn’t, to one viewer, a ‘movie’ wouldn’t have the property of ‘scariness.’

This can’t be right, because it wouldn’t be the same movie.

Well, what if the property ‘movie’ were contingent itself? That is, since a ‘movie’ has any number of potential properties about it, then it is never really a ‘movie’ in the objective sense; that phenomena itself is depending on an experience. To be scary it has to be watched and evaluated. From where do the ‘facts’ about its properties come? We just saw that in admitting that a movie has qualities about it, but that they are subjective, is also saying that movies really have no quality at all about them, or; we are not talking about the same experience when we refer to ‘watching a movie,’ because ‘watching a movie’ cannot happen without you. It is an entirely different thing.

So it isn’t that a subjectivist is claiming that he can have an experience that you cannot. Rather that any experience isn’t objective to begin with…and ‘movies’ don’t exist. See the gaps here?

Let’s say I asked a subjectivist to give me an example of a quality he found in the movie. He says ‘dramatic.’ We would then both accept that there might be such a quality ‘dramatic’ for movies. But what if he had it backwards? Shouldn’t he be explaining how ‘movies’ are a product of dramatization? It is only the concept of ‘drama’ that we have in common, not necessarily the contingencies in the movie that are described as dramatic. Admitting this, both of us are in a bind.

I’m asking him to give me a quality about a movie that only he can experience, and he doesn’t need that request anyway…, he simply cannot expect me to have his experience, so he, in turn, is asking me not to ask such impossible questions.

The only resolution to this is a radical rationalism not yet really tried out…maybe Husserl, Brentano, Frege, Heidegger, the whole gang, from what I have seen.

If we say that movies are ‘packed with the potential to be scary,’ then we are assuming a universal rule about movies; that there is ‘scariness’ and it is a ‘form’ for movies(somewhat platonic). If ‘scariness’ were a potential property for movies regardless of whether or not they were watched, then any experience of a movie would reveal it. Or else it wouldn’t be a movie because all movies are scary,or, no real movies exist to begin with because without be experienced as scary, those particular kinds of movies wouldn’t be.

The point here is that the reality of an experience requires that it be experienced, that it be dubitable, and that its essence lies in ‘being percieved.’ No particular properties have essences themselves…essences being only more properties. The world only has meaning if it is percived, and our perception of the world is deeply rooted in ethical concerns and conscious intentions. Facts about the world cannot be demonstrated in language or mathematical truths. ‘Objectivity’ needs to be restablished, logic and reason are not meaningful. They are merely means that exist for each as a method, not having any value in themselves. It is therefore ironically obvious that rationale is a metaethical process. I mean that reality as a whole is one gigantic ‘evaluation,’ and that its meaning is created in its utility for ‘caring’ in the world. A theme and/or property that we give ‘being in the world,’ and in that…we find objectivity. Actually, same word…slightly different etymology. Not so much epistemological as ontological. Don’t look for evidence in the empirical world.

“A rhinosarus could be in the room,” as Wittgenstein mentioned, I think, and you wouldn’t be able to prove otherwise with words.

If logic and objectivism rely on platonic concepts then there will be failure in the ‘emotional’ world of individuals. I’m suggesting that philosophy focus on the existential phenomena of experience founded on the over riding moral and ethical concerns that ‘dominate,’ as Friedrich mentioned, our reasoning in this world.

Uccisore… perhaps this is a better way to say what I’m thinking…

– Ehrenfels, “Werttheorie und Ethik,” Vierteljahrschrift fur wissenschaftliche Philosophie 17 (1893), p. 87. [ as quoted in “A Functional View of Value Ultimates” by Alain Locke, inside “The Philosophical Quest: A Cross-Cultural Reader” (2nd edit.) [ edited by Presbey, Struhl and Olsen ] 2000.

Haven’t had time to read De’trop’s latest post yet…

Admittedly, a little of what you're saying is beyond me right now, but what I can say is this:  If the property 'scary' is defined as a potential to cause a certain result in viewers, then certainly 'scariness' is dependant on the existence of viewers.  In that sense, we can say that a movie's being scary depends on how it is experienced, but I think the subjectivist goes to far if they conclude that scariness is not a property of the movie. It is the fact that there are viewers that is important, not any particular occurance of viewing. 

I would say instead, the world only has meaning if there are those capable of perception. The distinction here is that no particular part of the universe gains it’s meaning by a particular act of observation- it is enough that there are such things as observations. Something can have meaning, while unobserved, through it’s relationship with that which has been observed. To use a very simple example, imagine that humans overwhelming react to anything blue with fear. In a case like that, unobserved blue things would have the property ‘scary’. If the subjectivist reply is that things outside of observation don’t posses properties in the same way as things being experienced, then I’d need some justification for that dichotomy.

– U

it is a property of the experience of viewing the movie if the one viewing it finds it scary – that property does not stick to the movie so that it is experienced the same by every viewer… if it is similarly experienced, it is due to similarities between the viewers which caused them both to be able to experience scariness in reaction to that movie… and /not/ that they saw the same movie that is innately scary…

something may scare you that leaves me yawning… and vice versa

p.s. I’ve read De’trop’s last post now. I think you are attacking an extreme form of subjectivism (which is great) – what you’ll end up with is a middle ground that is a sort of objective subjectivism – I think we are both going to end up in the same general area of that middle ground, and it is interesting to see how we are both working it out. I look forward to comparing notes once my essay is done. I don’t feel like we are going where no human has gone before (if we were, one would doubt if it is even relevant to humans, lol…), because I’m finding my thoughts in so much of my reading – people have obviously been there before. However, it is alarming that most of what you find in debates are extreme objectivism or extreme relativism/subjectivism… you have to go looking elsewhere for the really good stuff.

 This is true- to be technical, we ought not talk about a movie having the property 'scary' but rather the property 'able to scary Uccisore' or 'able to scare She'.  Still though, a movie can be reliably said to have a [i]tendency[/i] to scare viewers, even if that tendency doesn't hold in every case.  

Well, ‘innately’ is a tricky word, since I would argue that the movie is scary in part because of the nature of the potential observers. Beyond that, though, I need to disagree with this for two reasons:

 1.) When a movie scares me, it's something [i]in the movie[/i] that brought out that feeling.  I could not scare myself in the same way by staring at a blank white wall, all things being equal.  There must be an interaction between properties of myself, and properties of the film that produce my fear. 
 2.)  If I find a movie scary once, I am likely to find it scary again. 'Scary' may be a bad example of this, since so much relies on surprise, but you get the idea. If I am scared by the same movie over and over, or more importantly, by different movies with notable similarities, then that indicates that my being scared is due at least in part to conditions outside myself. The 'innateness' comes up when we see that we can reliably claim that a movie will scare me, even though I haven't seen it yet, on the basis of those similarities. 
 I will say that 'being scary' or 'being scary to Uccisore' aren't very useful properties to talk about, since they are of course the result of a compound of many other factors, but they are nonetheless real.
 This is true- to be technical, we ought not talk about a movie having the property 'scary' but rather the property 'able to scary Uccisore' or 'able to scare She'.  Still though, a movie can be reliably said to have a [i]tendency[/i] to scare viewers, even if that tendency doesn't hold in every case.  

Well, ‘innately’ is a tricky word, since I would argue that the movie is scary in part because of the nature of the potential observers. Beyond that, though, I need to disagree with this for two reasons:

 1.) When a movie scares me, it's something [i]in the movie[/i] that brought out that feeling.  I could not scare myself in the same way by staring at a blank white wall, all things being equal.  There must be an interaction between properties of myself, and properties of the film that produce my fear. 
 2.)  If I find a movie scary once, I am likely to find it scary again. 'Scary' may be a bad example of this, since so much relies on surprise, but you get the idea. If I am scared by the same movie over and over, or more importantly, by different movies with notable similarities, then that indicates that my being scared is due at least in part to conditions outside myself. The 'innateness' comes up when we see that we can reliably claim that a movie will scare me, even though I haven't seen it yet, on the basis of those similarities. 
 I will say that 'being scary' or 'being scary to Uccisore' aren't very useful properties to talk about, since they are of course the result of a compound of many other factors, but they are nonetheless real.

Uccisore,

…then what would it say about that movie being ‘innately’ scary?

Does that mean a blank white wall is innately unscary? I can think of how it could be interpreted as scary.

I agree. The properties of the film that will produce fear (and the properties of yourself, capable of experiencing fear) will be due to conditioning and whatever dispositions nature has given you. The reason you can react similarly to someone else is if they have the same natural dispositions and conditioning. Think of Pavlov’s dog. Say we are all trained to salivate at the sound of a bell – is that best explained by proposing that a bell has the intrinsic ability to cause one to salivate?

Yeah, scary doesn’t work, because one can become “desensitized” by repeated exposure. But, try plugging in any other ‘reaction’ (sad, funny, and so on) and you will prob’ly find the same is true for it/them as well, although if it isn’t desensitizing, repeated exposure will instead effect a sort of fondness or even addiction, or emotional pain with increasing severity with every exposure, and so on… (and these effects can be true of being repeatedly exposed to that ‘scary movie’, too)…

I agree… if you want to say it is innately scary to ‘you’ at that ‘time’ in that ‘situation’ – fine, it is innately scary – but doesn’t that misuse the word ‘innate’? Or are you saying ‘innately scary to Uccisore’ or ‘innately scary to She’?

Going back to the tendency not holding in every case – if you think the movie is innately scary (able to cause you and/or me to experience fear) – what do you think about it if it doesn’t scare anybody else? Is something wrong with those people’s ability to be scared – or is it you and I being too easily scared? How can you tell (this is the most important question)?

Well, it would say that being ‘innately scary’ doesn’t include the idea of scary to everybody in every circumstance. The proposition would be a description of a tendency. Is there something invalid about that?

I think one of the problems here is that the properties of 'being scary' or 'causing salivation' don't say anything useful about bells or movies except in a very limited context: in most situations, it would be more constructive to say that a movie's lighting is just-so, or that it's subject matter consists of thus-and-such, than to say that the movie contains the property of 'being scary to Uccisore'.  You may even successfully argue that "being scary to Uccisore" is just a rather unorthodox [i]label[/i] for the properties of having a certain kind of lighting, background music, and subject matter. Still though, to use your example, I see no reason that the 'ability to cause Uccisore to salivate' is no less a property of a bell than 'being made from iron', provided Uccisore is an actual entity that actually does salivate when exposed to the bell's ringing. We just aren't used to talking about such properties, because they are relational, and apply in a very narrow circumstance. 

‘Being innately scary’ or ‘being innately scary to She’ or ‘being innately scary to Uccisore if and only if Uccisore is drunk’ would all be different properties, which could obtain or fail to obtain in any particular movie. My point is that properties like this, that describe how an object affects an observer or observers, are valid properties of an object in itself. I don’t see how applying the property “innately scary to Uccisore” to a movie is any different than applying “revolves around the Sun” to the Earth- both are properties of an object that rely on another object being a certain way in order for them to be meaningful. As long as the Sun and Uccisore are actual particular entities, it seems these relational propositions must be actual as well. [/i]

hmm… :^) I’m printing this out… bbl.

cool w/ me

also cool w/ me

half-way there – they are valid properties of the relationship between object and observer – the object will not always be scary to every observer (even the one in question), the observer will not always be scared in relation to any object (even the one in question) – but inside the relationship in question – inside the experience here and now – the object is being scary, the observer is being scared. It is innate to the relationship/experience, not to the object, not to the observer – both bring something to the relationship/experience.

the ‘meaning’ in “meaningful” is the ‘property’ and only applies when the observed-object and the oberver-object are a certain way ‘together’…

Any objections?

I could go along with that, I think, if I could get a better handle on what exactly a [i]relationship is [/i] such that it could have these properties- I keep coming back to the idea of a relationship just [i]being[/i] a set of properties like the ones we're talking about, in which case those properties would still be in the objects.

Just the one.

your reaction to an object is never in the object…

the object appears thus and so to you the observer, that’s it.

you can postulate about others reactions, but that’s their reaction, not the object…

it isn’t scary, it itself is nothing but light, shadow, color and sound…

your interpretation is on you and you alone…

-Imp

 I'm not going to defend a point that I may end up changing after She's next reply, but I will point out that 'reaction' is really broad, and includes direct sense information that we generaly [i]do[/i] think of as representing something in the object. It's easy to say that a movie's being scary is in the observer and not the movie, or to borrow from Berkeley, that the pain is in the hand, and not the fire.  But what about heat or brightness? Are those not 'in' the fire either? We percieve them with the same tools that bring us pain or fear, and from a human perspective, they are all relative values. 
  I'm arguing that since observers are objective entities, and their observations are facts, that the properties of 'scary' can be said to be objectively in the object in the same way that properties of 'hot' or '3 miles away from X' can be said to be there- they just aren't completely dependant on other properties within the object.