Faith through Devil Worship

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
1

No matter what kind of argument a reasonable christian presents for the existence of god, if you press him long enough for a reason why you should believe what he does, he will eventually tell you that it comes down to a personal revelation. No one can force you into the relationship with god required to know the truth, you must take a leap of faith or have a moment of clarity. I submit, however, that there is another option.

Unlike the god of christianity, the devil of christianity does not require belief in order to become an instrument of his supernatural will. And unlike the effects of the holy spirit in a believer, demonic possession produces much more tangible results.

To further belief in their religion, the christian should actually encourage the non-believer actively searching for truth to pursue satanism as a last resort. Or the christian could invoke satan on the non-believer’s behalf. It would be worth it for the end result. The non-believer could warn someone of his plans and have the proper exorcism authorities on speed-dial, so to speak, or in the case of the christian invoking demons for the non-believer, the christian would be aware of the situation and could handle things if they started to get out of control.

Stay tuned next time for Why Christians should Support Abortions!

2

Hmmmm… interesting but surely Christianity does not need to prove itself in such ways.

I mean to start with fear is really a bad way to start any relationship.

How much more with God?

3

At the very least, you will definetely catch everyone’s attention, I especially love “demonic possession produces much more tangible results.”
If one believes in the devil, aren’t they then, according to the bible, also believing in God. The Christian devil is a fallen angel in Christianity, correct me if I’m mistaken.
Are you writing from the perspective of atheism, agnosticism, deism, etc. It’s really hard to grasp where your coming from.

4

Why doesn’t it need to be proven? How many non-christians are there? How many christians would a christian like there to be? The holy grail of (a)theism is proof.

Don’t you remember your Machiavelli? The ends justify the means. How much more with god?

Yup, that’s the point. If they could be possessed by a demon and then exorcise that demon with the power of christ, that would be a fairly convincing argument. You would of course have to rule out the psychology of demon possession and exorcism as an explanation, as well as a few various others.

Does it matter? :slight_smile:

It’s no secret I don’t believe in the christian god if that helps, though.

5

I am amused with Machiavelli, but since you are arguin from that prinicple, I must agree with you to an extent.

But do remember it is also a theological principle that since the devil is a creature it is still under the whims of the creator. And assuming that the creator is good then more likely than not the whim of the creator is not to allow the devil to abuse his other creation in a regular basis.

So I think your prescription to satanism to counter atheism is futile at its best, because satanism does not necessarily mean a direct surrender to the biblical devil but rather a negation of all that is Christian. So most likely satanism will just corrupt the unbeliever with excess sex, anger and cursing than see God’s providence and mercy.

6

That makes no sense.

I’m not saying satanism, I’m talking full-on demonic possession. Asking Beelzebub, Belial, Satan, etc. etc., to inhabit your body. If I started speaking Latin backwards, I’d be much more inclined to believe the christians are right.

7

Okay sorry. Let me rephrase it up for you.

Assumptions:
The devil is a creature.
God is the only creator.
God is just and good.
Conversion meaning as an act of personal experience.

No good and just God will allow a devil to terrorize his other creatures in a regular basis (i.e. Jesus)
But to have demonic-possesion as a means of conversion it needs to be done in a regular basis.
Ergo, demonic possesion as a means of conversion is not allowed by a good and just God.

Yeah, but if one is as bigoted let’s say as Dawkins I will explain it away with psychology and how our genes dictate us to speak in latin backwards.

8

But god does allow bad things to happen to good people on a very regular basis. According to most christians that doesn’t fit the defintion of evil. Some people think possession is just another test god might use on a person. Again, because we wouldn’t be able to fathom god’s reasons or intent, it still wouldn’t make god evil to a christian.

The mind can do amazing things. People have been hit on the head and woke up with strange mental abilities. I don’t know if any supposed demon possessions have documented people speaking backwards in a strange language that they definitely did not know or practice beforehand, but I think the human mind could, under extraordinary circumstances, do that on its own.

9

Reply To Anthem:

[b]Interesting spin on the “proving God exists” bit. Although there would be few who would wish to attempt such a thing.

Any bizarre and inexplicable behavior within the world can be explain in secular or materialistic terms, in the same way that one who believes in the Christian God can explain the world’s phenomena and events to some action of God, invoking either the “noneya bees-wax” explanation (invoking the inscrutability of God’s wisdom) or the “it’s something other than what it seems” explanation (invoking God as the Descartean Evil Genius—in terms of God’s control over human perception to yield a world that may imply or differentiate from the objective truth of the world that lies “beyond” or “behind” human consciousness). I prefer the latter, myself (given that I believe in a mutated strain of Christianity).

Aside from demon possession, I think the ultimate test of a justifiable belief in God would be the observed response of God to a human prayer, with predictable and reliable results. However, not just any prayer will do. I think that said prayer must come from a human who believes that he or she is re-enacting the mind and (crucifixion/post-crucifixion) experiences of Jesus Christ.

After all, when it comes to God’s responses to human request, Paul laid out the dichotomy between God’s responses to the requests of humans and God’s responses to the requests of Christ in a striking manner:[/b]

"But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not ‘Yes’ and ‘No’. For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by me and Silas and Timothy, was not ‘Yes’ and ‘No’, but in him it has always been Yes. For no matter how many promises God has made, they are ‘Yes’ in Christ’."

(2 Corinthians 1:19, 20 NIV)

This is the basic principle of an ultimate proof of God, demonstrating (or disproving) both the existence of Jesus Christ and the existence of the Judeo-Christian God. However, a snag remains (in terms of whether or not such re-enactment is attained through the proper belief or ritual, etc.)

Jay M. Brewer
blog.myspace.com/superchristianity

10

double post sorry guys!

11

Yes! I have to agree with you.

That is why to suggest devil worship, so a person can be invaded by an evil spirit, so unbelievers will believe is quite a dangerous suggestion and would just backfire for the following reasons:

  1. Devil possesion (I mean the Emily Rose and beyond kind of cases) does not happen in a regular basis because God can still control this kind of creatures. And yes since God is still ni command he can even command the devils to make people realize their faith.

Now why does devils can be commanded by God?

The cause is that these creatures have direct contact with God compared to us humans, if I can recall my theology properly these creatures (angels) only have one instance to practice their free will (some postulate that it is when God made them choose to worship him in a low form as a human or not), unlike us who do it while we are living and do not have the whole picture yet.

  1. What we may deem as Devil possesion can be and most likely an instance of mental unhealthiness. That is why the Vatican who has an office and studies for demeonolgy is quite careful on performing exorcism without the consultation of doctors and psychologists.

  2. Devil worship only harm the individual and nothing more. A deliberate reversal of Christian values, as we can observe in people, brought only farther from any “faith” whatsoever. If you ask me I would rather make him believe that God does not exist, that make him believe that God exist but still worship a creature that he cannot begin to comprehend.

12

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13

Ooooh! The Dalai Lama!

14

You saying he’s possessed by a demon, Disciple?

15

wow fuck it took a long time to read through this one.
ok i will start from the top.

ok
1.if God is still in command and if he can even command the devils to make people realize their faith. why would he help some people realize there faith and not others determining wether they go to “heavan” or “hell.” is that just? and if god could then how did satan wage war agenst heaven?

2.i would have to say that Devil possesion was the explanation of mental unhealthiness back when there was not as many medical advances as there are now. and then there is the salam witch trails where the faking of Devil possesion was used to condemn there neighbors.

  1. i have followed the way of satan for a long time and it is all about not harming your self that is the last thing i would do.
    to say that it brings you farther from any other faith is some what mean and stupid it is what i have faith in and it makes no sence at all. i mean to have faith in something means you have no faith in any thing???

and i would like to say that satan is vary easy to under stand. the satanic bible is only 107 pages where as the Christian bible has over 1000

16

This is the concept behind the inquisition, as well as the concept that attracted the Zoroastrian/Gnostic mix into Christianity in the first place.

However, this doesn’t make it Biblically accurate.

Also, considering that the famous inquisition fared so poorly at showing relevant evidence for possession in the eye of history, what exactly do you propose differently as a means for determining tangible evidence of evil taking hold of the physical realm?

Can you show evidence that evil, as an entity, should be believed to be real as a physical presence instead of man’s own doings?

If so, can you show theological evidence as to how man is still to be held responsible for their actions if evil is so powerful of a force as to take over the physical realm?

17

Evil is just a point of view but, it is taking over the world very nicly i must say.

18

You still need to prove:

  1. Evil is an entity or sentient force.

  2. That it has literal control in the physical realm that supersedes the will of man.

  3. Method of determining who is controlled by demons or the devil, and how to determine was is part of evil forces in the world.

  4. How man is responsible for his actions if evil is able to take control of his will for evil’s purposes.

For instance, in the days of the inquisition, the answers were:

  1. There was never really any proof of this exactly, but in their time period, it was just simply preached that such existed. The descriptions of Evil were embellished to colorful levels far beyond anything remotely existing in the Bible.

  2. Showmanship of demon-possessed people, trials of demons, public torcher and persecution of the devils helpers, blame of all things negative in any form rested on the devil and that his helpers or demons must be near and present.

  3. An exhaustive exploration into the descriptions of ways to determine possession or evil alliance.

  4. Man is held responsible through humiliation; it is man’s fault for letting himself become weak enough to be possessed.

So there’s an example of what was tried, and failed, before.
Any ideas how you would propose it this time around?

19

The “devil” is not literally the devil.
And it doesn’t need you to invoke it before it will be there.
It does whatever it wants, regardless of what we do, say or intend.
It is life-force : the non-concentual process of being alive.
A predatory abstract at the top of reality’s food chain.
Everybody’s enemy, that not even God can get rid of or handle.

20

Well I don’t think I have to prove you first one because I said that evil is a point of view not an entity
As for number two I said that evil is taking over the world and so I don’t believe that it has full control of the world yet.
And I think all the devil is a manifesting image of all the Christians sins and because of this all people have the devil in them because all people have sinned.
and #4 is angered by #3 being controlled by evil is just something people saw when they do bad things and do not want to take responsibility.