Faith vs. Reason...my take

Yes, I am new here.

So, I’ll get started riight away…get your cross ready. :wink:

Most people, religious or not, (and most are not) will accept the myths, lies and stories set forth in the bible as being the truth, although they haven’t taken the slightest pains to check any of the ideas, theories, philosophies or teachings against any hard evidence whatsoever. The bible keeps “verifying” itself. Peter claims that Paul said so and Paul says that Peter said so and that John said so and that Matthew said so and that James said so. However, all these people have been dead for a long, long time (if they ever lived at all) and nobody’s uncle or great-granddaddy or great-grand uncle has personally had any contact with them.

Nor do any of these so-called “miracles” that so seem to fascinate us verify or check with any experiences that we have had, nor do they check with scientific facts, or scientific possibilities, nor do they check with experiences that other people have had. Nor do these “miracles” conform with the laws of Nature. It is all again a matter of it coming from the same source, the same book, vouching for itself and saying that so and so confirms it and so and so witnessed it, but it all comes out of the same pages.

Furthermore, they are pages that were written by people unknown and not necessarily even by the people whose names are attached to them. We know little or nothing about these people, except what the bible says. We don’t even know if most of them lived at all. In any case, the writers are many and of unknown origin, and who knows who put the whole vehicle together?

We know for a fact that nobody in fighting some desert tribe could implore the “sun to stand still.” This implies the earth would stand still on its axis for ten hours so that they would have more daylight within which to finish their bloody slaughter. (Joshua 10:12.) When one considers the vastness of the earth and Nature’s laws by which it rotates about its axis, such an idea is so idiotically ridiculous that its hardly worth considering. Yet this is what the “good book” says and this is what many people will blindly accept.

Nor has anybody in the last hundred years, or in the last thousand years or any other period of history, actually really witnessed a horde of people escaping through something like the bottom of the Red Sea, with those waters voluntarily parting to let them through, then collapsing upon their pursuing enemies. Nor has anybody seen any of dozens of other “miracles” happen that are so vividly described in the “good book.” It is completely contrary to all the immutable laws of Nature. It is contrary to common sense, to any of the real life experiences that any one has witnessed. It is contrary to anything anybody else they can trust has told them they themselves have witnessed. Yet people will foolishly accept these kind of stories and readily become apologists in explaining in some circuitous fantastic way and torturing their reason in order to make it possible that “it could have happened,” and, they will usually add that undoubtedly it did.

The fact of the matter is people today (as they have for thousands of years) are flooded by more myths, lies, untruths, than they are privileged with the truth. Unfortunately for the average person, it is not easy to discern and differentiate that which is a fact, that which is a lie, that which is truth and that which is a myth.

How can such an intelligent group of individuals who, in purchasing a house, for instance, will insist on evidence of title, validity of the signatures on the deed, notarization of those signatures and even insist on a Policy of Title. Yet when it comes to their religion the same people will throw overboard every vestige of sense they were born with. Blindly and remarkably they will accept contradictions, bad advice, lies, violations of the laws of Nature, all in the name of “faith.” Without checking who wrote these biblical myths, what is the evidence, does it seem reasonable, they completely abandon the judgment and the experience of a lifetime. They swallow wholesale this collection of myths without reservation.

Yet, to live is to make decisions, and in order to make decisions a person must come to conclusions. In order to arrive at good logical conclusions we must use valid evidence. The essence of good judgment is being able to sift and to weigh the information that is available to us, determine that which is valid and that which is not, and weigh the importance of each.

:evilfun: “Yay Dr. Satanical!”. :smiley:

Hello, new one. My cross(-bow?) is ready.

Instead of responding directly to your article, I will chicken out and respond to the “dichotomy” between faith and reason. Look at history and at this bulletin board. Who believes in reason, and who doesn’t? Those who believe man is a spirit believe knowledge is possible; while those who don’t believe in knowledge, generally don’t believe man is a spirit. There might be atheists who believe in knowledge, however, but how many?

As for “myths”, note a thread on this board about reading the Bible like literature. In my church, we take many parts of the Bible symbolically. “The Bible is not to tell us how the heavens go, but how to go to Heaven.”

As for the sun standing still, check an ancient astronomical record and you will find (or so I hear) that the miracle is supported by the evidence.

Yours cordially,
my real name

Mephisto, in agreement with almost all you have just stated, I would like to ask you about how ‘priveleged’ those are whom KNOW or CAN SEE the truth? Maybe it is more of a burden to be able to accept that the world cannot and will not see what you have, and maybe “Ignorance is bliss”

I don’t know, just a thought.
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Unfortunatly, ignorance is bliss which is why most do not seek to be “unignorant” HaHa I can make up words if I feel like it. Im hijacking the English language for this post!

I enjoyed your post and agree with it overall. While reading about the parting of the red sea, I realized that there is no record from the point of view of the pursuing enemies. Im sure that not all of the enemies would pursue them into the red sea for fear of some supernatural force or some other reason. Wouldnt there be some other account of this unbelievable event? Perhaps not for this is the reason they wrote the story in this fashion. All other possibility of witness has been eliminated and the pro religious are the sole witness. I wonder why there is no religion based around Aesops Fables…hmmmm irrelavant I know but its late.

I see at the bottom that your signature says " Yay Dr Satanical" Are you a Satanist? If so, you are contradicting yourself. Please dont be for I liked what you had to say. I guess I can accept a hypocrite if I see logical value in his writings. Like if a priest wrote good logical philosophy. I would accept this as well. But I would not be very happy about it. This being that I have no bias in what is logical for I understand logic. Basically, your stance or viewpoint does not matter in writing a truely logical well outlined explained work, even if you are going against your beliefs in doing so. Though obvious ignorance shines through with hypocrisy, perhaps this ignorance can be outweighed with results. Or perhaps im being a dumbass right now, and I need to go to sleep and read this tomorrow to see if it makes sense :astonished:)

Ahh…Mephisto, you come so close here to figuring it out. Dwell on this, and a greater understanding may come to you.

How is belief truth? And how is faith not belief? How is faith a fire in the heart? As far as I can tell, the heart pumps blood and provides no other service. If its true though, maybe ignorance is a fire in the heart to. Or are you pointing out that people do not think logically when choosing and believing in a religion?

i look at it this way. if your willing to believe faith over reason. Camp out at your nerest casino. And dole out every cent you have.

Wouldn’t a person have to have faith that they were going to win every time for that to make sense? Why would they have that?

I prefer Correspondence theory myself. Is that what you mean?

As far as I know, faith is belief. Or at least, it’s a certain reason for which beliefs are held.

A record of a catastrophic defeat 4000 years ago for a people who's leaders routinely erased all historic record of past leaders, so as to make themselves seem immortal? [i]Maybe[/i], but it's absence isn't particularly telling. It's a stroke of luck when any record of anything survives for so long.

interesting topic:

a stroke of two things.

#1 winner wrote history. Christians won Amerigo-Europa so we have a predominately judeo-christian history in those areas.

#2 History survives through archaeology. Like the dead sea scrolls. Which show that christ came from the tribe of essenes that practiced a strange mix of judaism and local paganism (baptism, sacrament practices, sun god praying (closing your eyes and bowing your head, the word AMEN).

well not in “WHOLE”.

Some christians choose to believe in special literal creation where others believe the lord used evolution. Some believe that some parts of the bible are clear allegory, where others take every word for it’s literal meaning.

When dealing with written oral traditions and stories compiled from probably a dozen languages of desert nomads should we trust any of the stories as literal?

If the story of Paul Bunyan was written down, and it was written that he came from god and sacrficed himself for mankind would people 2000 years from no worship paul bunyan?

Dread, it is written…“There is a way which seems right to a man, but the end there of is death.”

Or in other words…

There is a way that a man believes is right…
(If he believes in his mind he is right, how can he possibly know that he is actually wrong)

but actually he is wrong.(When the light of the truth falls upon his belief, it will be revealed if his way is/was right or wrong.)

Ahhh…and Faith…Let me answer with a question, if I may…

If a man realizes that no matter how much he may think/believe he is right, no matter how much it’s been reasoned out, that he has actually, and most likely, reached a conclusion/belief that is based, at least in part, on false assumptions, deception/lies, greed, bitterness, anger, hurt, self interest, pride, and arrogance…If a man realizes all this…what is left for him to put his belief in?

Logically? Are we talking logic…free from personal experience and emotions, such as mathematical logic, or are we talking human reasoning type logic ,which is influenced by a full spectrum of personal experiences and emotions? Not to mension varing degrees of knowledge and understanding.

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No. I am not a Satanist, but I do agree with much of Anton LaVey’s (modified) theories. Such philosophers as Nietzsche and Rand which promote coming above a herd mentality are among my favorites to read, I admit.

I prefer to see myself as a seeker, one who tries to open-minded (not gullible) within the realm of reason.

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Welcome, Mephisto!

Seems to me that your conclusion needs some more refinement!

For example, to judiciously and justly come to the right conclusion as I judge Satan or God, I first have to love him and his opposite, with equal 100% Love.

This means that my first misjudgment, the first injustice, my first miscarriage of justice is to hate and disrespect either satan/santa/nasta or god/dog!

This Love applies to everything and its opposite, Nothing.

So with that as background, I wd say this:

To live is to love to make decisions and to love to not make any, since to not make any decision is also to decide.

In order to make decisions a person must first come to the conclusion as to how to make decisions and how to conclude.

In order to arrive at good logical conclusions, we must love both valid and invalid evidence and so in Love to use all the evidence.
The reason for this is that what looks like invalid may be vaild, and things are not what they seem.

The essence of good judgment is unconditional Love for all of what is judged as valid and invalid evidence.

That Love makes us able to sift in Love and to weigh with Love the information that is available to us, determine with equal Love that which is valid and that which is not, and weigh with equal Love the importance of each.

Then we wd end up and rightly conclude that we will not overlook what we think is invalid like this:

“What has perhaps been overlooked
[due to Hatred of self as invalid, as inconstant, and as etc]
is the irrational,
the inconsistent,
the droll,
even the insane,
which Nature, inexhaustibly operative, implants in an individual,
seemingly for her own amusement.
But these things are singled out only in the crucible of one’s own mind.”
Albert Einstien, Subtle is the Lord, but MALICIOUS He is not! by Abraham Pais

“Few people are capable of expressing, with the equanimity of Love, opinions which differ from the prejudices of Hate in their social environment. Most people in Hate are incapable of even forming
such opinion.”
Aphorism from Leo Baeck in Ideas and Opinions of Albert Einstein.

And we would NOT start out like this and end up like this:

" Our FAITH in the idea of evolutionGod/fable/etc DEPENDS on our RELUCTANCE to accept the ANTAGONSITIC doctrine of special creation/the opposite to what we believe." Julian Huxley, Dogma of Evolution.

Hope that helps.

lovesure,
iloveu

According to the Bible definition:

Faith- belief without evidence.
Why do so many people put stock in such a premise? Below is a list of various things certain peoples put their ‘faith’ in. Test yourself and your sensibility.
— Millions of Hindus pray over statues of Shiva’s penis. Do you think there’s an invisible Shiva who wants his penis prayed over?
— Mormons say that Jesus came to America after his resurrection. Do you agree?
— Florida’s Santeria worshipers sacrifice dogs, goats, chickens, etc., and toss their bodies into waterways. Do you think Santeria gods want animals killedl?
— Muslim suicide bombers who blow themselves up in Israel are taught that “martyrs” go instantly to a paradise full of lovely female houri nymphs. Do you think the bombers now are in heaven with houris?
— Unification Church members think Jesus visited Master Moon and told him to convert all people as “Moonies.” Do you believe this sacred tenet of the Unification Church?
— Jehovah’s Witnesses say that, any day now, Satan will come out of the earth with an army of demons, and Jesus will come out of the sky with an army of angels, and the Battle of Armageddon will kill everyone on earth except Jehovah’s Witnesses. Do you believe this solemn teaching of their church?
— Aztecs skinned maidens and cut out human hearts for a feathered serpent god. What’s your stand on invisible feathered serpents?
— Catholics are taught that the communion wafer and wine magically become the actual body and blood of Jesus during chants and bell-ringing. Do you believe in the “real presence”?
— Faith-healer Ernest Angley says he has the power, described in the Bible, to “discern spirits,” which enables him to see demons inside sick people, and see angels hovering at his revivals. Do you believe this religious assertion?
— The Bible says people who work on the sabbath must be killed: “Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death” (Exodus 31:15). Should we execute Sunday workers?
— At a golden temple in West Virginia, saffron-robed worshipers think they’ll become one with Lord Krishna if they chant “Hare Krishna” enough. Do you agree?
— Members of the Heaven’s Gate commune said they could “shed their containers” (their bodies) and be transported to a UFO behind the Hale-Bopp Comet. Do you think they’re now on that UFO?
— During the witch hunts, inquisitor priests tortured thousands of women into confessing that they blighted crops, had sex with Satan, etc. – then burned them for it. Do you think the church was right to enforce the Bible’s command, “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” (Exodus 22:18)?
— Members of Spiritualist churches say they talk with the dead during their worship services. Do you think they actually communicate with spirits of deceased people?
— Millions of American Pentecostals spout “the unknown tongue,” a spontaneous outpouring of sounds. They say it’s the Holy Ghost, the third god of the Trinity, speaking through them. Do you believe this sacred tenet of many Americans?
— Scientologists say each human has a soul which is a “Thetan” that came from another planet. Do you believe their doctrine?
— Ancient Greeks thought a multitude of gods lived on Mt. Olympus – and some of today’s New Agers think invisible Lemurians live inside Mt. Shasta. What’s your position on mountain gods?
— In the mountains of West Virginia, some people obey Christ’s farewell command that true believers “shall take up serpents” (Mark 16:18). They pick up rattlers at church services. Do you think God really wants people to pick up poisonous snakes?
— India’s Thugs thought the many-armed goddess Kali wanted them to strangle human sacrifices. Do you think there’s an invisible goddess who wants people strangled?
— Tibet’s Buddhists say that when an old Lama dies, his spirit enters a baby boy who’s just being born somewhere. So they remain leaderless for a dozen years or more, then they find a boy who seems to have knowledge of the old Lama’s private life, and they annoint the boy as the new Lama (actually the old Lama in a new body). Do you think that dying Lamas fly into new babies, or not?
— In China in the 1850s, a Christian convert said God appeared to him, told him he was Jesus’ younger brother, and commanded him to “destroy demons.” He raised an army of believers who waged the Taiping Rebellion that killed 20 million people. Do you think he was Christ’s brother?
Or…do you doubt it?
Finally one last test:
— Over 1 billion around the world believe that God punished humankind with “imperfectness” because a man ate from a fruit tree and this caused God to be angry enough to send Himself to earth as a human to be killed, so that His own blood would pacify Himself in to forgiving humanity for one man’s disobedience. This also saved humanity from dealing with a terrible monster underground ready to torment us forever and ever in a lake of fire if we slip up and don’t believe this story. But, if we do happen to believe it (as 1 billion do), we inherit the love of God and mansions, streets of gold and an eternal paradise beyond the sky to live forever and ever while we watch our loved ones (the other 2.8 billion) who’ve slipped up roast, choke, writhe in pain and burn in fire for infinity.
Or do you…???
Man has the freedom to choose. That is beautiful, but that freedom is not void of its consequences–whatever they may be. If God exists, many people are in trouble (depending on which belief system, in any, is the right one), and if not, well, that’s a lot of wasted time here on this pale blue dot, ain’t it? Odds are I’ll take my ability of rational thought over arguable and improvable theories of faith anyday, thank you.

I don’t know where the Bible defines Faith as that.

Then just be a good person, and a God who is good might/should regard your actions as meritorious.

Okay, keeping this philosophical, since you want to be “reasonable”, what is your position on the existence of an agent intellect, and therefore of knowledge? Do you need a spirit to know spiritual truths?

un chevalier mal fet

The reason for religion: the hardest thing to do is wake up one day and admit that your parents, teachers, grandparents, friends, clergymen or whatever other people feed you, talk to you, teach you, love you are actually a bunch of completely weak and delusional fucking clowns, no matter how well-meaning they might be, no matter how 12-step strong they might be, no matter how cookie-baking, bible-shaking christian they might be, no matter how fast talking Talmud hawking jew they might be. They may lay in traffic for you, they may be nice, funny, they may stretch back to your earliest memories, but when it comes to actually thinking things through, the big questions, they are fucking CLOWNS. It’s a hard thing to admit. And you can run, by building walls of reinforcements. Bricks supplied by Aquinas, Thomas, Pascal, Kant…but please, it’s all complete bullshit and if you’re here you probably know it deep down.

This post wouldn’t happen to be fueled by Jerry now would it??

Regardless…you said it how it is, and for that, you deserve credit.

Clowns…man that’s rich.

Yes. Jerry would be the fuel.

Gee, and I thought this was supposed to be the site “I Love Philosophy”!

What I know deep down is that these people said to be bunk were all and every one smarter than Gamer.

(…After a pause, I seem to remember Gamer being somewhat of an Empiricist – maybe that’s what he’s talking about versus Idealists and Realists.)

Yes, those guys were smarter than me, and guess what, Himmler is probably smarter than you. Congratulations. Now that the iq tests are out of the way, congrats again for seeing that my list was made up of idealists. I love philosophy, and I hate how religious folk (mis)use certain philosophers in their arsenal. I even like some of the idealists mentioned, by the way.