FATE does exist

People often view fate as a mystical force and they often associate it with astrology, witches and magic… i myself nonsensed the idea that fate existed because of my preconcepted veiws on just the word. But when you actually think about it you will begin to realise that fate does exist, after days of thinking i finally came to the conclusion that the existance of fate relies on whether or not there exists a mental world different and seperate from the physical world.
Let me ellaborate… fate by definition is a predetermined future, meaning no matter what happens it is impossible to change what will happen in the future, do you believe it is possible to change the future? if we were to travel back in time and try to prevent an incident that had already occured we would not be able to change it because if that incident had realy happend already then we musnt have change it… we cannot alter the fabrics of time…
I believe that our futures are predetermined, every action we take is influenced by something… for instance, i am typing this message because im inspired to think because i just had philosophy at this college which i chose to go to because a friends sister told me about it. its sounds confusing and it is… what im basically trying to say is that everything we do is influenced by an infinate number of physical conditions. the issue here is realy whether or not we have freedom to do what we want… you could say “well yes ofcourse i have freedom to do what i want , right now im going to say something uninfluenced… slop” but you were influenced to say slop, perhaps you heard the word on tv or something, you were subconsioucly thinking about slop. My point is that our thoughts are influenced by physical surroundings… infact if our thoughts are physical then they can be influenced by physical conditions meaning we have no choice in what we do although it may seem so. How ever if our thoughts existed in a non physical realm then we would be able to make free choices, however i believe that thoughts are chemical reactions in our brains. But i am not totally sure, where do our thoughts exist? This is a question i find deeply hard to answer. Is it possible that they could exist in our physical brains?

Our thoughts are the creative force of our physical world. Therefore we influence our physical world with our thoughts and our thoughts are in turn influenced by our physical world. A symbiotic relationship. This is fate or cause and effect. So, our thoughts influence our environment, if we wish to alter our environment we need to alter our thoughts consciously. Thus altering our fate. At any given moment there are consequences to our actions (fate), yet when we are conscious of our actions, there is a possibility of changing those consequences, thus changing our fate.

A

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

you have made a good realization, Im not a fan of the use of the word “fate”, but read those links and familiarize yourself with established positions on the subject.

Our thoughts do exist within our craniums, if you want some non-light reading about how this could be possible check out Godel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstadter.

Also there is ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/incpages/publctns.shtml
a link I will shamelessly steal from Dunamis ;] You might find some shorter reading in there about consciousness and neurobiology.

This is my thought as well, that this special quality of “self-awareness” and the ability to “change the decision-maker”, if anything can make the illusion of free-will stronger.

Though, I think the determinists have a very strong position.

Hi angst-ridden

I agree that fate is a predetermined future that is not to say that each person has a pre determined future. Every action we take may be only a reaction to external influences but the outcome could only be fate if its future was assured. Since there are so many accidental influences how can a pre determined future be assured?

However, I do believe in fate as it relates to human types. This is not too PC to say since this New Age notion that everyone is the same has become fashionable. Non the less, the ancient sciences have always recognized human types and even the twelve apostles of Christianity are representative of the twelve essential human types.

The fate of the species “dog” is determined in relation to the needs of the planet yet the fate of each dog is largely the result of accident lacking any conscious direction. Man, I believe, is the same. The fate of human types is related to human evolution yet this evolution is far from assured for individuals of which the great majority follow the cycles of dust to dust.

I share your skepticism as to “creative thought”. Actually our usual thoughts we becomes so proud of don’t really exist since they are the results of imaginary interpretations. So they are a process that doesn’t have an objective origin or an objective destination. These thoughts are not a “cause” but just part of a cyclical continuum of effects. The fact that we may think seriously if we should wear this shirt with those pants or that shirt with these pants has absolutely no objective value though we may marvel at the ingenuity and creativity of our decision. Objectively then, these thoughts only retain subjective existence and vanish with our demise.

The question then for me becomes what is an objective human thought that is not limited and interpreted by our personal subjectivity? It would IMO be related to fate and in our case to “type” which gives individuals access to the potentials of fate…

What if we are predetermined to believe ourselves to be free?

We should not forget the invisible giant, or in Imp’s terminology, the Purple Wombats.

Ask yourselves this: If you believe that you are free (or some approximation thereof) how would things be different if you were predetermined? If you believe you are predetermined, how would things be different if you were free.

There are of course several other options. It might well be that every possible event at any given moment (any outcome from our choices) actually happens, but we only see one set of events that follow a roughly chronological cause/effect sequence. Thus if we could view all possible worlds we’d see the whole thing as predetermined, though we’d not be able to make any sense of it. But since we can only see a select few events it seems we have some control over the future, because it seems like it hasn’t yet happened.

Who knows?

Fatalism isn’t the same as determinism. Fatalism says that nothing any person can do can effect the future. Therefore, it follows that nothing you do can put a post on this board. For is the post was fated to be on this board, it would be on the board. And if the post was fated not to be on this board, then it wouldn’t be on this board. Therefore, according to fatalism, you merely think you had anything with putting your post on the board. Actually, you did not.

Is that what you believe?

I was going to post a thread about this until I read yours.
I’ve thought and conversed a great deal about this subject.

Basically, my thinking on it is something like this:

A particle (quark, electron, whatever) cannot make a decision, it just moves around subject to laws and preconditions.

We so far at least, seem to be made up of just small particles.

Therefore, the future is “predetermined” (not preknown necessarily, but “set” in a way)…

Leads me to this expression,

“apparent free will”

I guess it’s enough.

At the end of the day though, this is only a very wild guess. We know so little about our own brains, let alone the nature of elementary particles or why the laws of “nature” are even there in the first place.

Interesting thread. :astonished:

Your very right the fate exists…

Every thought we have was Destined… if it wasnt it wouldnt of happened. Most people who are ignorant of fate see it as something like People who believe that the world is complete chaos.

Everything happens for a reason… The Chaos theory is flawed.

You cant prove that wrong. No matter what. Your ignorant if you think that things just happen in complete chaos and for no reason.

Look around you in ur room. There is a reason as to why everything you see is there. There is a reason to why you think, to why you philosophise, to why you are here. There is a reason for everything. There is no magic pulling us towards a destinty.

EVERYthing will JUST BE because it happens, happened or will happen. everything happens for a reason. Just try and prove it wrong.

Your Fate is yours to chose, by the actions you make, you shape your destiny. But your destiny is already created because time is something of the mind. It could of already happened, happening or will happen. It all has to connect with time and that every little eon or w/e happened for a reason.

Nothing in life is random. Random is a word to describe things out of the ordinary. There is no such thing as conicidences, its also just a word we use to describe something that seems out of the ordinary, something that happened that connects to seomthing else that happened.

So you see my point? Everything is happening in our world and to say that not everything happens for a reason your deafeating ur self and not knowing it because “the reason to why tou think that is a reason in itself”.

You misunderstand Chaos Theory, which has nothing to do with claiming that things happen randomly and for no reason. Try again, possibly starting here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Theory

“In mathematics and physics, chaos theory deals with the behavior of certain nonlinear dynamical systems that (under certain conditions) exhibit the phenomenon known as chaos, most famously characterised by sensitivity to initial conditions (see butterfly effect). As a result of this sensitivity, the observed behavior of physical systems that exhibit chaos appears to be random, even though the model of the system is ‘deterministic’ in the sense that it is well defined and contains no random parameters.”

the thing is though actions can be as well pshychological. or fate can be psychological not just physical.

You gotta realize people have different opinions on what the chaos theory is… Thank you for posting that but none of that really makes anysense to me.

Im sorry but the chaos theory iv been told by people iv met have always told me that it means that things just happen for no damn reason.

My answer is that Everything happens for a reason.

Chaos theory or not. Doesnt really matter. MY Point is that EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON.

Usually when I hear the sentence, “Everything happens for a reason.”
I think, Oh no, hear we go down the “faith” trail.
BUT
Here, I think(hope) people mean that everything happens because of all the background conditions that happened before it, not some holy arbiter controlling everything.

Then don’t bandy about a term you don’t understand. If you’d read up on the theory before trying to use it in your argument you’d understand what I posted.

Then you were talking to people who didn’t understand the theory. Don’t presume that people know what they are talking about, they often do not.

Chaos theory most definitely does not state that ‘things just happen for no damn reason’. The whole theory is deterministic.

Shouting it makes no difference. Just stop using terms you don’t understand.

Fate does exist. People say you choose your own fate but who is to say that the new path you have been set on may be the one fate said you were destined to to take. Each decision we make each day creates our fate. Just because yoou can’t see fate does not mean i doesn’t exist. It is like the win, like love, like heaven.

I FEEL THAT THERE IS A FATE, BUT IT ONLY DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU’RE SPECKING OF. IT IS OF MY BELEIF THAT THERE IS A FATE IN LOVE. ALTHOUGH THERE IS NO FATE OF ME TYPING THIS PAPER RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT. WE CAN ALSO MAKE OUR OWN FATE FOR SOMETHINGS. LETS SAY THERE IS A POOR MAN AND YOU DECIDE TO GIVE HIM $20. IT WAS YOUR DECISION THAT MADE YOU DO THAT. ON THE OTHER HAND IF THAT PERSON REALLY WASN’T POOR AND RETURNED A MULTITUDE OF YOUR MONEY BACK (FATE). LETS JUST SAY YOU DIDN’T GIVE HIM NO MONEY AND IN RETURN YOU GOT A HANDSHAKE WITH A RICH MAN. SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR OURSELVES OR IT WOULD BE A WORLD OF NO FREEDOM. WE OFFEN DO GET A VOICE IN OUR HEAD AND IT TELLS US WHAT TO DO. THAT IS EVIDENCE THAT WE DO CHOOSE OUR OWN FATE SOMETIMES.[/i]

I FEEL THAT THERE IS A FATE, BUT IT ONLY DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU’RE SPECKING OF. IT IS OF MY BELEIF THAT THERE IS A FATE IN LOVE. ALTHOUGH THERE IS NO FATE OF ME TYPING THIS PAPER RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT. WE CAN ALSO MAKE OUR OWN FATE FOR SOMETHINGS. LETS SAY THERE IS A POOR MAN AND YOU DECIDE TO GIVE HIM $20. IT WAS YOUR DECISION THAT MADE YOU DO THAT. ON THE OTHER HAND IF THAT PERSON REALLY WASN’T POOR AND RETURNED A MULTITUDE OF YOUR MONEY BACK (FATE). LETS JUST SAY YOU DIDN’T GIVE HIM NO MONEY AND IN RETURN YOU GOT A HANDSHAKE WITH A RICH MAN. SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR OURSELVES OR IT WOULD BE A WORLD OF NO FREEDOM. WE OFFEN DO GET A VOICE IN OUR HEAD AND IT TELLS US WHAT TO DO. THAT IS EVIDENCE THAT WE DO CHOOSE OUR OWN FATE SOMETIMES.[/i]

I don’t think if fate exists really matters. There is no way to determine whether it actually is. Either conclusion you could come to will bring you nothing but grief. If fate were real, would you really want to know? Living life knowing every decision you made was predetermined. Knowing you’re entire life based on “free choice” is a big hoax. Or there not being fate, and there being so many different physical and mental factors that influence every move you make. Whether it exists or not…will the knowledge of it make you succumb to it? Would you sit back all day waiting for fate to takeover or would you be convinced that your fate is to sit at home on your butt all day. Say it does exist…I still have the ability, or think I have the ability, to make conscious decisions that nurture my everyday well-being and determine my future.

Thoughts may be affected by our physical world but they are not effected by them. At least if one has the slightest bit of will they are not. There are some, however, who submit to an external locus of power always thinking they are hapless and hopeless and that everything happens to them. I tend to believe that this is an extremely materialistic bias. It is true that a person may choose fate or choose freedom, remember it is also ones choice to be in servitude. If you have never read Sartre try reading his play Les Muches (the flies) it is an incredible drama about the process of choosing fate in bondage or freedom. There are some special cases where peoples choices are stolen from them by supressive governing regimes, but these are extreme cases. If you have found the freedom to write this post i doubt that you are one of them.

 As for the discussion about chaos theory, from my understanding it is not a teaching on randomness but how everything is interconnected.  Of course it would sound as if chaos would mean randomness but we have to remember that the eastern philosophies tend to deal a lot with dialectics and it would seem that this is the case with chaos theory.  I recollect chaung tzus famous dream about the butterfly, or was the butterfly dreaming him?

Another position to take on the issue of Fate is Soft Determinism, or Compatabilism, which actually states that free will and determinism are compatible.

SD basically states that even though the future is basically “set” and you will choose that path, you still have free will. Because just because your “will” has been decided since time began doesn’t mean that it’s not your will.

To a Compatablist, even if a psychology sysyetm could be created which one hundred percent accurately described and predicted every choice you made, you would still be enacting your own will every time you made one of those choices.

That is a bizarrely appealing idea, to me. That the essence of free will has nothing to do with what is “destined” to happen, or not.

Also: I don’t think Chuang Tzu has anything to do with Chaos theory…but yes, that is an awesome story. And so is “The Flies”