Favour to Adlerian

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I know that, in light of Adlerian’s recent (and past) posts, several people are doubting his claims of who he is, and are even wondering whether he might not be a teenager. That is, his responses are often very strange, childish, offensive, socially retarded (not meant as an offensive term to mentally challenged people–I’m being literal and clinical), and in no way resemble something that a professional in the field of psychology (or even someone who has read ANYTHING legit about psychology) would ever write.

One of the more recent examples is his response to Crooked Mouth’s post in Rant House that was not even directed to adlerian and it wasn’t even Adlerian’s thread: Adlerian’s response was “blah blah blah your mom.” Many people might say “NO 38 year old would ever say that. Given the context, no intelligent TEEN would even say that.”

However, I’m here to assert that he really is what he says, and I’ll tell you why. He knows he messed up by giving away too much personal information, and thus if anyone was really anal enough, they could do a bit of investigation and find out who he is. Now, in light of his exploits here, that would be embarrassing enough (I’ll spare anyone all of the details). However, he knows he could get in trouble for claiming to be a psychologist when he is not. Now, he HAS made that claim a few times, but he could always reason that it was a slip…a typo…since he writes so many posts. If he were merely a teen or someone not really in the field of psychology, he would simply come out and lie directly about my insistence that he is not a real psychologist–and his original references to himself would have been “I am a psychologist” as opposed to “psychotherapist” and all the othe dancing around the issue he has done.

His latest example was extremely clever. He mentioned his degree in clinical psychology in response to my message to Shy that he would need one of those to call himself a psycholoist (in addition to other requirements). However, if you look closely, you can see his dance step: he makes mention of it within the context of a silly “fantasy” (involving whipping and whatnot). Thus, if it came down to it, he could argue that he never claimed to have such a degree–it was part of a “joke,” just as he obviously never lashed me with anything (other than a forked tongue).

Again, a teen or someone not in the position he claims to be in would not go through all that trouble–they’d just lie outright and say they have a PhD in clinical psychology and are registered with a State Board/College. It’s that simple. So yes, he is who he says he is.

But then how does one reconcile “16 years of psychotherapy” with the kind of things he says and does? I’ve said it before: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). Check out the links I’ve posted before. Bottom line is that NPDs have no empathy and cannot connect with others nor take their perspective at all. It’s all about the NPD. The NPD truly sees things ONLY his way–he cannot see things otherwise. I may have mentioned one of my NPD clients who was extremely “intelligent” (got over 140 on the WAIS IQ test…it DOES happen, despite adlerian’s lack of experience with that…) yet lied about a sworn affidavit of his that he KNEW I was going to check.

Was he insane? Delusional? No, the NPD simply cannot believe that ANYONE would challenge him and thus says and does whatever he wants whenever he wants, without considering the consequences–consequences are for mere mortals. NPDs are thus known for their extreme impulsivity: they’ll do or say whatever comes to mind whenever it suits them, regardless of the impact their actions will have on others. Now you can see why such an impulsive, self-centred, self-proclaimed “king of everything”, unable-to-see-others’-perspective kind of guy can so easily interject into others’ conversations and say something rude, offensive, insensitive, bizarre, or false without batting an eyelash and without owning up to it, even when the facts are thrown right in his face.

He will ignore the fact that he may have really hurt someone who was vulnerable and/or sharing something very painful, with his insensitivity and inappropriateness; he will criticize the people who point things out while refusing to take any responsibility for his actions. He may even regress to a child-like state and/or experience intense NPD rage. But any response will include total denial, rationalization, or minimization of his harmful/hurtful/hateful and selfish actions.

He MUST process this information in a way that makes sense to ONLY HIM b/c his NPD developed out of very unfortunate circumstances. Thus, he must protect himself from the harsh reality that would otherwise crush his poor self-esteem. Unfortunately, the NPD’s quest for self-protection often comes at the expense of the truth and of others’ needs and feelings. Even when the NPD is trying to HELP others–not to help them but to feed his ego and b/c when he helps others, he puts himself in a position of “power” or “superiority” or “dominance,” which of course makes him feel better about himself–you can see that his words are almost always about HIMSELF and how “wonderful” he is.

Even when he is trying to be “humble” (an unconscious part of his “act”…he often does not know that he’s doing this), his tales of “look, I had this problem,” or “I am only human after all,” are in fact counterbalanced with “But I AM a super hero” and “I did so many wonderful things.” This pattern will be present even when talking about how he has “helped” others. That is, it is ALWAYS about the NPD.

So, I hope this clarifies what some of you have likely been wondering about. Adlerian IS an adult psychotherapist (but not psychologist). Anything that appears to contradict this claim is due to NPD. It’s not a value judgment or put down. It’s simply a description and explanation of seemingly irreconcilable behaviours and facts. If you have any doubts, please find me one example that contradicts anything I have written.

I have already used up one of my weekly 2-3 posts, so I’m back to my ILP vacation.

PS

Feel free to analyze any of MY posts, but please don’t lie about them. To help out, I freely admit that, despite any self-awareness I have gained, I still have my “neuroses”: I am anal and verbose, have an overly strong desire to be right, can be very immature, and take silly pleasure in “taking down” “bullies.” I can also be quite selfish and put my needs in front of my family’s at times, though my several attempts at ILP withdrawal have been motivated in large part by a desire to stop being so selfish… :blush: I’m sure there is much more, but I don’t want to take away from the focus of this post…THAT would be selfish and self-serving.*

  • Yes, I am aware of the irony of that statement… :sunglasses:
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PS

As with any personality disorder, the only ones who see (the more bizzare) things the same way as the NPD usually have the same or similar traits themselves. That’s why it’s so difficult to treat a group of NPDs or any other PDs…they will all feed into each other’s “special” way of processing things and (usually unconsciously) conspire to thwart therapy…

[this doesn’t count as a new post…]

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I’m simply curious about one thing: what is the major attributing factor which forms personality? (I’m only taking developmental psych this fall). And I would further narrow down the question to what is it that precisly causes a person to develop NPD; have psychologists developed any convincing theories about this subject? (I’m just curious).

P.S.

Don’t you think it’s wrong to single out a poster like this and attempt to psychoanalyse them in public. I mean, imagine how you would feel if I began to write my theories on why you wrote this post. Perhaps, you felt wronged in some way by one of Adlerian’s posts and therefore are using your psychoaynalytic theories in order to place yourself in a mode of authority (and, perhaps, superiority). Perhaps, you wrote this thread in order to compensate for some type of insecurity; do you catch my point?

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For the record, I am totally insane from too much schooling, and a host of other details that will be revealed over time!

The really annoying thing is that I also have a masters in Health Care admin! It never ends!

Kisses baby!

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was that before or after your stint in Nascar?

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I have skimmed over the banter between psyche and TheAdlerian.

I concur with what The Underground Man said in this regard:

I would think that you were setting yourself up to be analyzed by another member who feels compelled to play “armchair psychologist.”

Maybe this is what you want . . .

Don’t get me wrong. I find posts by you and by TheAdlerian entertaining, to say the least.

I was under the impression that you were taking a break from ILP because of personal issues, yet you returned to the site and decided to post this thread adding more fuel to the fire. :confused:

Sorry. I’m just curious as to what motive you had for starting this thread.

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It was my evil plan to make him start posting again to prove that I own him by remote control. My mind power is greater! Mu hu ha ha ha ha!

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TUM,

Okay, going to use up one more of my vacation posts…Quickly: There are several major schools of thought re. how NPD develops. Type it into Google and you should find some sites (here’s one: halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html#npd).

Simply put (really simply put), some argue it comes from parents OVER-VALUING their precious kid (which is good at first, but it becomes problematic when this continues as the kid gets older and doesn’t get a TRUE sense of himself and the world and the relation between the two). The other argument is that it comes from kids who were severely neglected and/or maltreated (parent(s) often had their own PDs or other disorders such as depression), and never had their needs met properly. THey thus construct a fantasy life to protect themselves from looking at the horrible messages they got as a kid from those around them, or to create their own sense of self since their parents failed to help them construct this sense of identity. Anyway, that’s the REALLY simple cole’s notes version. And the fact is that many kids in such situations do NOT develop NPD. They may develop some other “disorder” or nothing at all.

As for the other part of your post, I wouldn’t write what I wrote for just anybody. What is my motive? One, b/c as mentioned, I believe adlerian is what he says he is (to an extent), and that worries/distresses the shit out of me b/c I also believe what I wrote above. So as I’ve written before, if someone sees this and realizes how fallible therapists are (whether they think that about adlerian or myself, I don’t care), it helps empower them and will enable them to get more out of therapy. That is, I’ve seen far too many colleagues mess clients up, usually despite good intentions, sometimes for not so benign reasons; when clients realize that the person on the other side of the relationship (therapist) has his own baggage, warped history, biased perceptions, etc., it can help them understand what’s going on in therapy and perhaps question what the therapist is saying and doing, and not take everything said as gospel truth (unfortunately, some clients will do this anyway, often “unrealistically” so…they process things as idiosyncratically as NPDs do…).

If adlerian were just some person who ranted a lot and made as little sense as he does, and acts as silly as he does, I wouldn’t mind. I’d just roll my eyes. But when he’s in my field and portrays himself as something he is not (registered psychologist), I feel compelled to take a stand, whatever form that takes.

As for what others think of this or any of my other posts, go ahead and do what you want. Check out my first PS above. People are free to write whatever they want, and I or others can judge these posts for what they are (or for how we perceive them). I AM trying to stay away from ILP, so I hope this response suffices. If someone wants to write something ridiculous about me, let them…people will see the merit or lack thereof of such posts. Look how much of an ass adlerian has made of himself with many of his posts, which are essentially of the “na na na na na na” variety (see above for an explanation of this). The only thing I do NOT want to see is libel. Call me anal, but I’ve got a problem with libel.

And Adlerian HAS libeled me several times, and when this has been clearly pointed out to him, check out his responses. If THAT kind of a person is supposedly “helping” others, I feel compelled to help others see it for what it is, and why it happens that way. Adlerian is a big boy. Besides, NPDs do not process things in a “normal” manner, so my post will not hurt him in any way, don’t worry. It would be nice if it led to SOME kind of insight in him, but that might be expecting too much…so at the very least, perhaps it can help others…

PS

Many of my clients and students have parents or siblings or lovers with NPD, Borderline PD, etc., and when I give them links to pages describing these things, they are usually so grateful b/c it empowers them. It lets them know WHY the person acted/acts as they did/do. It also helps them to see whether it’s worth doing ABC or XYZ (e.g., trying to get an apology out of an NPD family member can be fruitless in many cases). Why do you think I have not addressed adlerian directly for such a long time? It’s like talking to a brick wall or playing jello tennis. He is hopeless in that regard. Again, all of his posts prove this. But I will repeat my challenge: if ANYONE can find anything to contradict what I’ve written about adlerian, please feel free and I’ll giveup my practice in a second.

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:laughing: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :laughing:

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Just wondering - there seem to be so many distinctions of madness/disorder these days, that everyone falls into some catagory or other… My question: is it ‘good’ to know that you’re NPD/BPD/Borderline depressive* - Whatever - if you’re still functioning reasonably well anyway as a human being…?

Sometimes if you name the beast - you help it to consume you…

  • I say this because I took an online - “are you depressed” test (out of simple curiousity) - and came out with a 4 - a bit depressed. Then I played about with the answers, and discovered only an absolute zero popped up the “hey - you’re okay” happy ending… And frankly - to get that truthfully - you’d have to be on cloud-nine with a gutfull of benzodiazapines and martinis…

Okay for me - my psyche is fairly bullet-proof (knocks on wood) but if I were a bit rockier, that kind of information, or worse - a few hits on a roll-call for BDP for example - might make me go :astonished: and start to wonder… And then start to dwell… And then start to spot more co-incidencies… And suddely BANG - I’m a full-blown loony…

If you leave a pimple alone, it goes away, if you scratch it, it gets bigger…

Or am I over-simplifying as usual…?

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1.his response to Crooked Mouth’s post in Rant House that was not even directed to adlerian and it wasn’t even Adlerian’s thread: Adlerian’s response was “blah blah blah your mom.” Many people might say “NO 38 year old would ever say that. Given the context, no intelligent TEEN would even say that.”

Clearly, Canada provides little ethnic diversity. Philly is the “yo’ momma” capital of the world and then after you get upset from having it spelled out what your momma is, you would then be called a “pussy.” Pussy.

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Tabula Rasa,

The quest for describing mental health and mental disorders is something like the three blind men trying to describe an elephant. THey are all correct annd they are all incorrect at the same time.

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Very true! It’s an art not a science.

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it is not an art or a science. :unamused:

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Geez, then I’m in trouble!

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Hey Tab,

I’m trying to maintain my resolve, but for YOU, farg it (for the record, it’s bastiches or bastages…lame inside ref. to one of my fav movies…).

I rarely “label” my own clients b/c I don’t see what good that does. For me, “labelling” or diagnosing’s ulitmate purpose should be TREATMENT, and nothing else. So, there’s usually little reason to tell a client/patient that he has XYZ. We can discuss his symptoms, life circumstances, and even meds (my patients often know more about meds than I do…), but to say “you have XYZ disorder” is not very fruitful IMO. However, often patients have already been diagnosed by others before they see me, so we discuss what it means, and I try to frame it in such a way that they might be motivated to work on their issues as opposed to using a label as a crutch (e.g., “I have bipolar disorder so there’s nothing I can do but take my meds…”).

In my previous message I referred to giving my patients and students info as it pertains to particular people in their life, so they can have a better understanding of those people and make better decisions on how to interact with them. I often joke to my students about labelling their lovers (“Trust me, they just LOVE to be called passive aggressive…”), which of course I tell them is not productive either.

Anyway, people with a PERSONALITY disorder almost never come to treatment for THAT; they often come b/c their PD has contributed to their stress, depression, anxiety, etc., so to say “well, your depression is actually due to your NPD b/c…” would not be fruitful b/c now you’re saying it’s something about THEIR VERY BEING that is messing them up–it’s their CHARACTER. And it’s hard enough to make LITTLE changes in our life, so how motivated are most people to change something HUGE that has been with them for essentially their entire life?

So, I prefer to focus on what they DO, how they affect others, how they react to others, and how they process their experiences. For ME, knowing their PD helps me understand these issues and helps me determine the best (I hope) approach to getting them to face and acknowledge these things without bolting for the door. I mean, look at how certain people HERE have reacted to having the truth thrown in their face. Don’t make me do my best Nicholson impersonation to tell you how well most people react to the truth…As mentioned, there’s a reason I haven’t written directly to certain people here for a long time; what I’ve written here and elsewhere is for OTHERS’ knowledge/benefit.

Having said all that, I’ve said it before: I believe we are ALL “abnormal” to a certain degree. Once we can accept that in ourselves, I hope that we can look at others who may be acting more “abnormal” temporarily (or loner) with a bit more understanding and compassion, and stigmatize them less; moreover, people who look down on “abnormal” people often think “why don’t they just do abc (e.g., smoke less, “get over” their depression, eat better foods, etc)?” BTW, I usually avoid the term “abnormal,” and instead prefer “maladaptive,” which I define as anything that harms ourself and/or others–with the understanding that “harm” is vague and tricky to define; and with the understanding that it’s such a broad def’n, which is GOOD, b/c it thus applies to ALL of us (which should thus reduce stigma…why do you think I get so upset when I see self-professed “helpers” convey such insulting/pejorative and condescending/patronizing attitudes toward those they claim to “help”? I mean, if even THEY have such disrespect and contempt for the people who may require extra help, how do you think OTHERS look at such people? :confused: ).

Well, if we say that XYZ is “abnormal” or “maladaptive” and expect others to change it (as stated above), then why don’t WE change our OWN XYZ behaviours? For example, idling a car is selfish and causes harm to others. So why should an idler look down on someone who drinks too much? Don’t be a hypocrite and change YOURSELF first! Take that little step to change even small XYZs. And once you’ve* started tackling little XYZs, you might begin to build some momentum and start making bigger changes…you build on your successes and take more action, as opposed to merely yipping about this and that.

So, Tab, you think you may have over-simplified things in your post? My take on “abnormality” is probably overly simple too, but good ideas do not need to be complex. I personally like my philosophy above and convey it genuinely and passionately to my patients, clients, students, and, most important, my girls.

Hope my third posting of the week (with 5 days to go till the end of my week…I probably won’t be able to keep my 2-3 post quota THIS week… :imp: :wink:) made sense and addressed your questions, Tab.

  • Of course, “you” is the generic “you,” not specifically the Tab You La…

Psyque