My speculation:

Fear is what drives a human to choose any action. Everytime we make a decision we do it out of fear of something. Perhaps not an urgent overwhelming fear, but something that pushes us towards a goal.

Argument: Some people are driven towards goals not out of fear but out of desire.

Reply: What is desire? Isn’t desire more simply a fear of not having what it is you want? For example if I say I desire a woman then am I not immediately infested with the small fear of not having that woman which in turn drives me towards her? In the same way isn’t everything we desire immediately attatched to the fear of not having it?

I realize that it is not a typical fear in which you shudder or scream. But it grows with desire, side by side. The more one desires something the greater their fear of not having it grows.

You might even say the opposite. Our desire grows with our fear.

So what is the driving force in all our attempts at happiness? Is it simply out of fear. If so…what is that fear?

I think is a half empty/half full example. I might choose chocolate over strawberry for other reasons besides fear though.

Someone told his thoughts about fear to me before, which is exactly the same as yours. Since it’s an recent event, you can consider my flowing reconstruction accurate.

X: Fear is the ultimate motive behind everyhting we do.

Y: So we love out of fear?

X: Yes, the fear of being alone.

Pureasonist: We’re afraid of alone, and we’re constantly working on it, all true, no objection. To the issue of the significance of fear, I’m asking this: why do I love that particular one? I see women all the time, the thought of marrying anyone of them should sort my fear out. But although I fear of being alone, I still don’t feel like marrying most of them. It’s that particular one I saw made me want to love. Fear could be irrelevant here.

X: (gone)

Y: So we do things out of love?

Pureasonist: Could be.


A particular liking of a specific woman would sort out fear? How so? Wouldn’t it then just create or signify the fear of having an inadequate woman? Or of having a woman who had some bad attribute about her?

I think you are right when you say we are afraid of being alone. Along similar lines I would say we are afraid that we will not recieve the attention we believe is due to us. I believe we are all longing for the perfect sort of external stimulation. We are looking for unblemished and everlasting attention.

I also believe that our fears create a distance between the perfect attention that we are actually recieving and the imagined attention we are fearfully unhappy with.


How would you say about Will To Power? Would you say that the failure of expansion is THE fear?

A rapist, raped. Fear of not getting laid? Or more like obssesion with sex and thrill?

I say we do things out of love, if I have to say something so “big” like this.

I would say the will to power would be a greater fear of a lack of attention. Those who are most afraid of not getting their due attention are more inclined to take control and make everyone give them attention.

A good example would be “little man’s disease.” Quite often people who are smaller tend to be domineering and demand attention because they feel that they have not recieved enough attention. Keep in mind this is just an example and not a perfect one at that.

As far as a rapist I don’t think a person is immediately afraid of “not getting laid.” I think most occurrences of rape are caused by addictions to sexual pleasure. I also believe pleasure is a form of attention. It distracts us from our fear. So in the case of a rapist, given that the rapist was raping out of an addiction to sexual pleasure, they would be growingly afraid of not recieving their normal amount of sexual stimulation. The more that fear grows the more they are inclined to committ the offense.

On the other hand, I do see what you’re getting at with the idea of love. I do believe love exists…but that’s a whole other bag of chips I don’t wanna open right now.

Why, 'cause it doesn’t taste too good?

Anyway, we are all on tele… terms. What they call it, without enough evidence? So I say love. You do a good job defending fear, I can do a equally good job defending love. You want me to start on this? I’ll try.

Attension. “Little man’s disease”. Agreed. But why fear? Why not love?

I’m just lazy that’s all. I’ve been over the thoughts before but now I have to re-open the files and that takes time and energy…but I like your input, so its worth the work.

Ok so where were we. Love, yes. My stance on love is that it has always existed. Love is the epitomy of the lack of fear. Love is only realized when a person realizes exactly what their fears are and eliminates them.

I believe that before fear comes about, there only exists what I call love. The progression of goodness through fearless and perfectly intended motion. Love is everything that is and happens. So what is fear you might ask?

Fear is a flow or direction towards nothing. It is a gateway to emptiness. When a person fears they are left alone from their goals. Fear causes chaos and pain. When a person realizes their fears, they can see how it has stunted their path to love. The problem is a lot of us can’t see what we’re afraid of. We keep falling into the pattern of following our fears into nothingness. As soon as we can eliminate fear we will be in love. So why do I say that fear drives us to our goals?

It is fear the allows us to recognize love. If it were not for fear, those in love would know nothing but love. With fear we can see the greatness of love. With fear we are driven towards it.

This is a very choppy and sloppy theory but I hope you can get the jist of what I’m getting at. Sorry I’m lazy.

Although I’m still not sure about the idea of presenting fear as the “anwser for everything”, I do feel sympathetic towards your fearing about love. I kind thought about it in the same way myself a long time ago. Don’t know why I didn’t note it down like you obviously did, but I’d like to reconsider it.

Let’s forget about what I believe is right, 'cause as I said, I’m relunctant about these “floating” issues. I’ll just stand the opposite to you, hope we cite our way up. Imagination 1:

Perfect live: I live in pure joy. Love? I love everyone and everything! Don’t talk about love as if “it’s once in a life time”, and don’t even mention the word “sentimental”! You ask me how many lovers I have? I anwser you: count my women friends!

Imagination 2:

Life sucks: I live in dispare. I hate evryone and everything! don’t talk about love as if it’s something that can be toyed around with, and don’t even mention the word “delightful”! You ask me how many lovers I have? I anwser: what is love to you pimp?

Imagination 3:

The happy guy meets the other. Talked about fear in relation with love. A beauty walked into sight, they both shout: “that’s my true love!”

Do you think that this is possible? I think so. When the happy guy felt love for the first time, he’s not scared of anything. He probably thought: damn I didn’t know that love taste so good! Screw all my girlfriends! I want this one! For the unhappy, he probably still fears, for what? The fact that his unhappiness can’t help him much to win over the beauty’s heart.

Whad you reckon now?

I don’t believe in people who have perfect lives. I’ve never met a person who was or is perfectly happy. If someone were to say those things to me I would not believe them. The only instance I can think where people attained perfect happiness is the story of adam and eve in the garden of eden. Even that is just a bunch of written words.

I previously noted the point that I thought fear was necesarry to recognize the greatness of love. I still hold speculatively intended in that direction of thought. A person who has no fear cannot recognize what is seperate in things…they can only recognize love and its perfection. They might be able to communicate the truth of matter and others who are not in perfect love may recognize seperations in their communication, however they themselves know only love and will have no personal desire.

Now if you meant that the person in your first imagination was not in perfect love but only thought he was happy I would say to you that he, in truth, does have fear…he just does not recognize it. Why would he desire things? Women friends? If he had done things for personal gain, like he does after seeing the woman at the end of this story, then he must have had fear to instigate his awareness of a need for something for himself. This was my first point in the original post. However I only make it again if you intended that your first imaginitive character was a man who only claimed to be in perfect love.

Fear is a factor (hmmm…sounds like a tv show), but not the only one. To say we act and react soley out of fear is like claiming only Weak Nuclear Force acts on a particle ignoring all the other forces (SNF, G, etc).

I started a topic on fear recently, about a month back. If you search for it you’ll find it. The premise was that all voilent action arises from fear, and something that does not rarely happen on these boards came about, most agreed!! I don’t think fear is the cause for all action. One can live without fear. Fear is an illusion, fear comes when there is a percieved threat to either the physical body, or the Ego/self. In our lives we experience the latter more so. People are afriad of they’re psychological security, something causes them to fear they’re status, they’re jobs, they’re moral code, whatever its all a product from having ego. There really is no psychological security.

An attempt at happiness is what I would define as becomming. I am not happy not so I will do this, and then I will be happy. If I accomplish set goals I will be happy. This fear, and state of becoming arise from not being able to accept the present moment as it is. You are not happy with the now, so you attempt to seek out happiness, and find it in the future. Unfortunatley for most this becomes a never ending process, you will never truely become that which you wish to be. To dissolve fear, one most accept the present moment.

Interesting thoughts. :slight_smile:

However, it seems as though you are almost presenting fear and desire to be virtually two sides of the same thing…name, Passion.

If I’m following your argument correctly (please let me know If I misunderstand you), it seems that fear and desire are very much inter-related with one another. I cannot desire one thing, unless I’m currently fearing some other specific thing(s). Likewise, I cannot truly fear something, unless I’m currently desiring some other thing.

The driving force in all our passions, if you ask me, is desire to place ourselves as far away from the things that would bring us the things which we fear the most.

Fear, in short, is the result of the unknown. We naturally fear anything that is unknown/unknowable to us. Death, for instance, is one of the most unknowable things to man. Consquently, Death is also one of the most frightening things to think about.

Desire, on the otherhand, is the lack of fear. We are only able to desire something the most when we are currently in the least amount of fear of that given thing.

My point is: Your argument of fear & desire seems attempt to present fear and desire as being hard to distinguish. Whereas, I humble feel that fear and desire are very distinct from one another and are not as interelated as you seem to sugggest they are. But again…this is just my opinion.

sorry if this is kinda confussing. I fear I’ve had difficulty in expressing my thoughts effectively. :wink:

Heres a Sartrean approach that I think is very insightful.

If you say that ‘fear’ is an emotion that is instinctual and predisposed to react in certain situations; in the presence of a predator, a large moving object, the anticipation of losing one’s job, an oncoming storm, a terrible flu virus, etc., or any other circumstances which translate into ‘destructive’ and/or ‘resisting’ to the ideal alternative, safety and security, and try to single out any one of these reactions as simply and purely ‘natural and instinctual,’ you will have many problems. There is a great deal of rational thinking involved in even the quickest of disputes, and to say that a chosen response was autonomous and not a complicated plan of action involving many evaluations and judgements, is to say that it was unintentional and therefore not an act of consciousness.

Granted, if a seven foot bear charged me, I’m gonna shit my pants and run. I would fear for my life. Of course there is instinct at work here, but in the more complicated circumstances in life that cause us to project ‘fear’ there is actually some amount of bad-faith, and ‘fear’ is ironically a created emotional response that resembles the ‘sour-grapes’ attitude analysis; after realizing one cannot reach them, they compensate and choose to believe that they weren’t ripe anyway, but in a post-hoc fashion. Fear, then, is the chosen response to an event that is unbearable that allows the conscience to believe that by being instinctually inclined to fear some things, they are granted the right to submit to the fact that the event is fearful and there is no choice in the matter. There is a choice in the matter, that’s the problem with the theory of behaviorism.

It is of minor significance that this is pointed out, but it does mean something. Essentially the point here is that if someone has waited long enough to contemplate their circumstances at hand and choose a course of action and response, then there has also been the creation of contingent values. Remember, the world is indifferent to you, the bear, and the guy taking notes. Upon becoming conscious, we do the strangest things.

That monk who set himself on fire comes to mind, and didn’t budge the whole time.

I understand your point the whole time N. So son’t worry about not getting your point across here.

I make a little summary just to make sure that my point is got acros:
I think free choices are involved when we decide to do things. I’m typing away right now, not out of fear. I’m doing it now because I like to to it. I could be easily distracted if my mobile rings and someone says: Let’s find some chicks in town. Equally, I could easily refuse his suggestion, and say: no, I’m doing something better. Fear is a thing that I don’t feel the whole time in this case. However, if you decide to deep phsycho-analyse me and conclude that fear is controling whether I realise it or not, then I think you’re getting fearful about denying this interesting speculation.

I say we’re all coward if this speculation is true, but I don’t think so. The only thing that I fear is god actually exist, 'cause I pissed at him lots.

^^lmao @ your las statement…hahaha…that’s funny…

Yo N I feel what you’re saying…every single word is profound… Pureasonist also has a like point with love. I’m not gonna comment but I’d like to see this grow into more…Fear the absence of love…lol…hahahaha

What about if I desire to eat some pizza. I am not choosing pizza because I fear that I will go hungry. I choose it because I like the taste, and it has an appetiveness value, rather than aversive.